Gold Washington Dollar cache: clue inquiry

[Connecticut Sam]

#123 is actually another of Frankn insults. I did not write any comments on page one, so it is not one of my dig ups. If if was, it would be cover by: FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Frankn did not tell us of his opinion if the story is true or not. NOT.

The letter to the editor was in 1951, and the story was published many times in treasures magazines. Do not waste your time.

 

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[Connecticut Sam]

There was a lot of different coinage around in those days. French for sure but not in large quantities. The Spanish pillar dollar was widely circulated and readily recognizable so it was very popular and was used here up until about 1859.

Very true, my friend.

 

[tdu150]

In 1799, a 2 million dollar horde of Gold dollars was stolen from revolutionary war troops in East Granby CT, by a group of Torie sympathizers and hidden within a mile or two of the Inn where it was stolen. Reports say it was never found although over the past forty years several dollars have been found near streams known as the Salmon Brook. I have done quite a bit of research here and am confident that the story is real and the horde still exists unfound. Looking at old maps I have narrowed the search to a few areas. For all the experts out there, I would like your opinion on the following:

If the horde was in wooden boxes or casks and was transported by wagon in a hurry, and if you knew there would be a wide search, what likely spots would you hide it?

Note: the wagon was found approx. a half mile away from the Inn in a field the next morning. The community had dirt roads north and south main streets (level), east and west roads (hilly) basically. Several river branches abound, a few ponds, several farms. An old prison still exists 1 mile away from that time period and lots of wooded areas.

I would love to hear your opinions and thoughts and see how everyone's mind works creatively. Thanks tom

Number one the war was over by 1799. Number two Washington was a President by then and not at Valley Forge for heaven sake. Now 1779 is more like it.Which is it??

 

[old man]

Number one the war was over by 1799. Number two Washington was a President by then and not at Valley Forge for heaven sake. Now 1779 is more like it.Which is it??

Actually, what makes even more sense, is that if there ever really was a cache of $2,000,000. Then whoever buried it, would have come back and dug it up. Let's look at something else. $2,000,000 back in the late 1700's would have probably been more money then existed in all of America in currency. I'm sure that $2,000,000 back then would be equivalent to 10's of Billions of dollars today. Sounds like a good story, but I personally wouldn't waste me time looking for it.

 

[Tenn-Coinhunter]

There is one very large assumption being made concerning this legend. That assumption is the coins were hidden relatively close to where they were stolen from. I have read nothing about a pursuit that would have forced them to dispose of the coins quickly. Too me it seems there is a very large area that will need to be searched. You should take a map of the area and figure the max range a wagon pulled by horses could travel overnight. Divide that in half and allow for the unloading time and hiding. Now the wagon driver heads back to leave the wagon in the field to throw folks off the trail. Here is another scenario. If the folks who stole the coins were really smart they would haul the coins a short distance, transfer the coins to another wagon, send the first wagon back and keep hauling the gold to a safe place to do whatever with.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

I am happy that Old Man agree with my many comments including #143. God bless him.

 

[Tod Ringam]

I've been trying to make a case for a stelth type operation but after reading post number 89, page 5, by Tommyl , I started
to get bad viberations. It's seams true; there was 13 wagons, with gold in strong plank boxs, and it was heavily garded. But he makes no mention of a robbery. How can that be? Maybe there never was a robbery. I think I just got a big whif of B.S.. Tod R. P.S However you have to make up your own mind about it.

 

[Tod Ringam]

Hi Franklin!! Right, I'm thinking the same thing. It never happened. Tod R.

 

[Dr. Syn]

Well just for giggles, and to give you something to think about.

A discrepancy I've heard, was it 13 teams or 13 wagons? 13 wagons would take one heck of a plan to eliminate all those troops and make off with the wagons. Like said, that's a lot of bodies to just up and disappear/ be buried without some word of it leaking out.

Now then 13 teams may be more likely, if the story is true, a heavy loaded wagon may need 13 teams of horses/mules to pull it. Anyone remember the 20 mule trains that hauled Borax from the mines? "Death Valley Days"

A single wagon would be a lot easier to ride off with, and return to a drop off point.

Also 13 wagons vs 13 teams, you are talking at least 13 bad guys if it's 13 wagons. These guys were not Navy Seals or Army Special Forces. Be a bit of a job to silence 13 guards at one instant. One boo boo, and someone is going to shout for help, or fire a weapon. Even if it was only one guard for 13 wagons, which seems kinda silly, there's something else.

13 wagons, means a minimum of 26 animals to pull em. At night the animals would be unhitched and corralled or hobbled. So you would have to have 13 bad guys take out one guard, or a whole bunch of them, then round up and hitch up 26 animals to the wagons. Then ride off into the night. Umm, 26 animals and 13 wagons are going to make some noise. You do not whisper to said animals to get em going, you slap em with the reins. More noise made, and not waking up anyone?

And this was a secret mission, yet someone knew of it, set up a group to overtake it, and disappear with it. That takes some real planning. The initial attack, the gathering of the animals, hauling the wagons out of town, then either dumping in a pre-planned spot or spots, hiding the spot(s), then 13 drivers to take the wagons back (really doubt they hitched all the wagons together for one guy to haul back), then say 13 horses to carry the drivers off. Heck even if they walked, 13 folks leave tracks. 13 horses would leave some serious sets of tracks.

Okay so they pulled an Oceans 13, and did all that, and no one notices till the next morning. 13 wagons gone into the night, dead body(s) laying all around.

A horse drawn wagon, heavily loaded, isn't going to make a long distance in even we'll say 12 hours head start. You have to subtract the time to unload and the time to get the wagons back to where they were found. So the drop off would have to be fairly close by if it was 13 wagons.

So you say they split up the boxes, okay, 13 wagons meet up with how many other wagons to divvy up the load. Even if it's 13 minimum, you're talking about 26 wagons, 52 animals, and how many people? That much stuff showing up in one place is going to tear up some ground. And if they were going to scatter, more then likely it would be close to a crossroads so they could head off in different directions. Lot less likely for someone to take notice of 2 or 3 wagons going down a road, vs 13(+) in a convoy.

And not one coin has ever shown up? Okay supposedly what 3 or 4 that there is no real documented proof of. So's 13(?) guys all killed except one who heads off to England. And not one person ever told anyone about this going down. Not a drunken brag in a saloon, or a whisper to a lady friend? No one skimmed a little of the goodies and pocketed it before burying the rest? Really?

Course I'm just a scarecrow hanging on a post who's got straw for brains.

 

[gordonquixote]

The whole story seems a tad farfetched....too much gold to haul, too many perps required to move it, and I doubt the Colonists would not have it heavily guarded.

 

[Tod Ringam]

Dr. Syn, you brought up a good point. "At one time several teams laden with speie------" Phelps must have meant several
wagons. I.E, several wagons laden with gold. This makes a lot more sense, no way would you need 13 wagons. With 3 teams per wagon,( 3 teams to each wagon you could travel farther faster), would equal 12 teams for four wagons. With the 13th team pulling a spare wagon. Yes, maybe you would want a spare wagon encase you break a wheel. Anyway 13
teams not 13 wagons. Tod R. P.S. I think my brains are made of straw too at least when it comes to horses.

 

[LuckyThirteen08]

My thoughts exactly!!

 

[jmcdon7740]

Where did these numbers come from

For 13 wagons of gold coins you would need an escort of at least 50 to 100 men with a Major or Colonel as ranking officer. Surely all of these wagonmasters with a shotgun guard would be 26 men with out riders genearlly 3 to 10 for each wagon. These riders would be scouts and forward and aft guards. How did all of these soldiers well armed disappear. There would have to be all kinds of relics from a skirmish or battle and there would have to be soldiers killed on the opposite side or the attackers. Now we are looking at from 100 to 200 or more dead soldiers where are they buried? With something of this magnitude it surely would have been written up by some newspaper. Something this large could not have happened without someone to live and tell the story. Myself I would not waste my time trying to find something that never happened.

I've been silently monitoring this stream for a while and decided it was time to start posting. I'm interested in knowing where the above statistics come from. Is this opinion or do you have some reference? I am a Colonel in the military, a genealogist and a student of military history with a special focus on the American Revolution and the Civil War.

The British may have sent 50-100 men with high ranking officers, but not Americans at this stage during the American Revolution. They would have sent a small detachment. As a frame of reference, George Washington considered his most important escorted delivery to be the delivery of his personal and professional papers, personal belongings and baggage to his home in Mount Vernon. They travelled through Philadelphia and Wilmington, to Baltimore, Bladensburgh, Georgetown and Alexandria to Mount Vernon. This included several wagons carrying his possessions as well as tents, food and other supplies for the guards. This important mission was left to Capt Howe and 12 guards.

 

[jmcdon7740]

There is one point of order that seems to have been overlooked so far in this story in the determination if it is true or not.

The original story states that 13 wagons loaded with gold and guarded by British troops stayed over night at a tavern, during the night the guards were killed and robbers took off with the loot. Am I correct or did i miss something

First off lets get an approximate size of the escort in numbers. 13 wagons means atleast 13 drivers. there would be probably one outrider per wagon, that makes 26. With 26 men you would have atleast 3 Sargents because this is almost company size at the time. A company needs an officer and of course his batman and runner that now brings the total to 32 men in the very least. All members of the escort would be regular British soldiers as civilians would not be allowed anywhere near such a valuable shipment.

Reguardless of the time period if a full company of regular soldiers were over come and killed during a skirmish it would be news everywhere it would also not be called a skirmish for the pride of the British Army would not allow them to admit that a full company of regulars was desimated overnight by bandits this would have rated the title of a major action.

this is just an idea that I had to throw out there

They were not being escorted by British soldiers, these were gold coins sent to the US by France.

 

[jmcdon7740]

Lemuel Bates - Not a Tory

While I’m not ready yet to say that this treasure doesn’t exist, the research I’ve done over the last couple of weeks have found several holes in W.C. Jameson’s writing. I’m fortunate to live in Granby and work in East Granby so I have easy access to the historical societies of both…as well as Simsbury. I’ve also followed the Phelps leads to the Granby, East Granby and Simsbury articles. I’m going to post research findings in a series of posts over the next week.

First, is some information about Lemuel Bates (1728 – 1820), since it has been suggested that he could possibly be a Tory and somehow connected to the theft of the gold. There are several publications written that describes Captain Bates, his contributions in the American Revolution and the reputation of the Bates family. They are not hard to find, you can find most of them online or in the local libraries.

It's also highly unlikely that he was at the Tavern during this event for several reasons. The main reason is because of the military activities during 1779. 1779 was a year of heavy coastal attacks by the British against the Connecticut Coast. Captain Bates was sent to the coast of Horseneck (now Greenwich) in March of 1779 after it was pillaged by the British in February . He was still there until at least the end of September when he wrote a letter to the Second Company of Alarm in Simsbury. Winters in this area were harsh and made travel by wagon extremely difficult. Since the writing does not mention any of the challenges winter would have presented and the thieves were able to dig into the ground to bury the gold, I think we’re safe to assume this theft did not occur during January to February.

This means that Bates would have had to return to Simsbury (East Granby) by early-mid October and the theft occur then. The reason I pick early October is because in the story, it mentions that the thieves met 6 weeks after the theft in the woods, which indicates that the weather was still somewhat tolerable. They met at someone’s house to plan the theft, but met in the woods to discuss it after.

In addition, I found several advertisements from the Connecticut Courant (predecessor of the Hartford Courant) posted by Lemuel Bates. Advertisements include one for a horse that was stolen from his property, another for a brown steer. Lemuel Bates put ads in the newspapers for stolen livestock, but no mention of gold being stolen from his property? Originally I thought it might have been difficult to dispatch a story to the newspaper, but clearly these examples shoe it was not.

Bottom line, I’m 100% confident that Lemuel Bates was not a Tory or involved in the theft. I’m 90% confident that he was not at the Tavern in 1779 when this theft occurred.

 

[jmcdon7740]

Henry Wooster

W.C. Jameson’s story also provides several false pieces of information about Henry Wooster. First, the Woosters were not from Simsbury (East Granby), they were from Derby, CT and they were a well-off family. He was related to General David Wooster and the family was split between revolutionaries and Tories. Jameson states that Henry Wooster was placed in Newgate Prison for stealing a cow.

The Connecticut Department of Economic and Community Development published a list online of all inmates of the prison and it confirms he was there and that he escapes. It states he was arrested in May of 1780 for “illicit trade” and escaped in May 1781.

Wooster did escape to New London where he boarded an English ship and joined the British service. He remained on that vessel through the war and for years after. Jameson stated that Wooster wrote his mother and then later died in England. In fact, Wooster did return to his parents in Derby, CT where he farmed for the rest of his life. He died 11 Feb 1824 and is buried in Trinity Cemetery in Seymour, New Haven, CT.

If Wooster knew the whereabouts of $2.5 million dollars, would he engage in illicit trade or wait until he can collect his riches? I’m sure he certainly wouldn’t risk it by stealing a cow. Henry Wooster was not a common, uneducated, petty thief. He came from a good home, was young and impressionable and passionate in his beliefs. If he knew where the gold was hidden, would he have lived his life as a farmer without attempting to retrieve the gold?

 

[au-artifax]

I have to side with the doubters, in fact am convinced the story is a hoax. 1. If anyone had bothered to research the production of French coins, there were never any " George Washington coins ever EVER produced by the French government 2. One story of a woman finding a coin at the river near rt. 20 while washing her hands after fixing a flat tire is completely false, as there is no direct access to the river below the overpass unless you hike down the road. Now why would she do that? 3. In a hearsay letter the booty was reported as being offloaded and buried by the fork between the east and west branches of the river. There was no direct access to the east branch back then and none to the middle section of the fork. 4. If the booty was buried near the fork in the river, then how the name of Hades did people find rumoured coins UPSTREAM of where everyone theorizes it was buried. Did the fish carry it upstream? 5. None of the Bates' family was ever question, nor did they ever make any comments that a robbery had even occurred. 6. There were never any deaths reported for this incident nor any investigation. 7. During the alleged of year the booty was taken, most of the area in the area s swamp. How did these waons get to the river? 8. This is not the way to or from Boston to ANYWHERE. Why would the French send cargo over land that came by ship, when there would have been a fsster way to transport it closer to it's destination? There is plenty more of this and it is all common sense if anyone bothered to check. Sure it's nice to dream, but just because something is yellow doesn't prove It's gold.... sometimes it's just a banana.

 

[blackbeard1717]

If they do exist you gotta factor in 230 years of rain floods which probably washed it down stream

 

[au-artifax]

No, not really. Have you ever seen the brook at different times of year? There is enough current to ash a little placer gold maybe, but not enoug enough to toss solid gold coins around. And with all the mud and silt, the best you can expect is for erosion to uncover a cache. It's just a tall tail told over a few pints of lager, that got blown out of proportion!

 

[Big Bad John]

#162 makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe the brook be a good location to search for placer gold.