Gold Hawg: 1715 Fleet Find

[Darren in NC]

Thanks so much. I'll check out those links.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[elle]

Oh, I forgot to answer your question about the hosts. The first mention of the form of hosts
happened in the fourth-century, and in the sixth-century, hosts were said to be as
small and thin as they are now. By the ninth-century, hosts replaced ordinary bread.

The pyx was intended to reserve the Eucharist after the consecration.
Host-boxes were used to store the wafers before consecration. There were also rules
to follow how often the wafers were made in order to keep fresh.

I hope this clears up some of the questions. The pyx did not have to hold thousands of hosts.
It only contained the Blessed Eucharist. When some remained from mass,
it was reserved for the sick and dying, held in the pyx.



Hey Bonnie, is that a hinge on the side? It is so hard for me to come to any solid conclusion without seeing it
in person. Having one picture and one view is difficult, but I'll throw out some possibilities. I think GoodyGuy was
right that perhaps rubies were mounted in the front holes to represent the pelican who plucked herself for blood.
Many vessels (pxyes) held a container inside. Traditionally it was gold as the Blessed Sacrament
would be held in the finest metal. My guess is that there was a separate container attached inside the pelican and
it was held by that hinge I see-if that is what I am seeing. If there were no attachments (eyelets) on it
(because I can't see with only a picture), it
might not have hung with the chains attached straight to the gold pelican.
It could have stood upright on a separate base that
was suspended. If there was an indication of rings (eyelets), then the chains probably were attached straight to the pelican.
Darren, I know you said that the design was made as to not giving easy access.
Remember the container only held the hosts that were consecrated which was likely a small amount each day.
With the opening, it was easy to insert a separate container inside the pelican and have access to the Eucharist.
Oh, and there is a chance the inside container was meant to be put in by an artist when the piece arrived in Spain.

I truly believe this was a pyx and I'm just trying to help. Thank you Bonnie for letting me see such a beautiful sacred artifact in my lifetime!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It implies here that there may be a hole in the base. http://www.enrada.com/response.htm

Through a hole in the center of her base, she may have been mounted to a pole ... or to an altar. We'll have to wait for the jury to come in with all the details on this wondrous piece




The ruby idea makes sense but I still cant figure the purpose of the "hinges." I cant see any reason for any type of suspension if it hangs from a chain. By suspension I mean like springs on a car. I agree hard to tell by pic.

The only purpose I can guess for the "hinges" would be that it was cast in several pieces and assembled this way.

 

[elle]

Bingo, Bigcypresshunter. Yes, it's possible it was cast in two (upper and lower) and were
held together by the middle pieces...great observation on your part
By the way, sorry about your mom...she is in paradise now!

The hinge I was referring to was located on the side?

Also on August 17th, Bonnie wrote: "One wing is missing - somehow lost in the last 295 years. I hope to find it and perhaps discover what belongs in the center. A ring on top of the neck and also the wing indicate missing chains as well."

So maybe rings do exist?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yes I think she said it had a broken eyelet on the head and top of the wing. Yes maybe chains exist. I just didnt undersrtand the need for "hinges" unless it was made in pieces for easier casting and assembled that way... it doesnt look like a door.


There appears to be 3 "hinge" assemblies. I assumed they were all the same. The hinge piece that is missing took the wing with it.

(it appears to be 3 identical "hinges" with wings attached to 2 of them)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

In other words, they look like hinges, but in my theory, they are not.

Maybe they were just for assembly.

 

[elle]

I see now...glad you explained that the one side broke.
Middle pieces ...yes... were probably for assembly.
Container with Eucharist possibly was inserted from the back of the pelican.

Bigcypresshunter...ačiū (thank you)!

 

[FISHEYE]

When is the last time you saw a pelican with a short beak with no pouch and with caruncles on the top of its head?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

When is the last time you saw a pelican with a short beak with no pouch and with caruncles on the top of its head?

LOL I think its one of the Egyptian pelicans. Thats what confused us to think it was an eagle but its definitely a Pelican in Piety. http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast244.htm http://www.flickriver.com/photos/28433765@N07/3672572134/

 

[FISHEYE]

PELICAN

pel'-kan (qa'ath; Latin Pelecanus onocrotalus Septuagint reads pelekan, in Leviticus and Psalms, but has 3 other readings, that are rather confusing, in the other places)): Any bird of the genus Pelecanus. The Hebrew qi' means "to vomit." The name was applied to the bird because it swallowed large quantities of fish and then disgorged them to its nestlings. In the performance of this act it pressed the large beak, in the white species, tipped with red, against the crop and slightly lifted the wings. In ancient times, people, seeing this, believed that the bird was puncturing its breast and feeding its young with its blood. From this idea arose the custom of using a pelican with lifted wings in heraldry or as a symbol of Christ and of charity. (See Fictitious Creatures in Art, 182-86, London, Chapman and Hall, 1906.) Israel knew a white and a brownish-gray bird, both close to 6 ft. long and having over a 12 ft. sweep of wing. They lived around the Dead Sea, fished beside the Jordan and abounded in greatest numbers in the wildernesses of the Mediterranean shore. The brown pelicans were larger than the white. Each of them had a long beak, peculiar throat pouch and webbed feet. They built large nests, 5 and 6 ft. across, from dead twigs of bushes, and laid two or three eggs. The brown birds deposited a creamy-white egg with a rosy flush; the white, a white egg with bluish tints. The young were naked at first, then covered with down, and remained in the nest until full feathered and able to fly. This compelled the parent birds to feed them for a long time, and they carried such quantities of fish to a nest that the young could not consume all of them and many were dropped on the ground. The tropical sun soon made the location unbearable to mortals. Perching pelicans were the ugliest birds imaginable, but when their immense brown or white bodies swept in a 12 ft. spread across the land and over sea, they made an impressive picture. They are included, with good reason, in the list of abominations (see Lev 11:18; Dt 14:17). They are next mentioned in Ps 102:6:
"I am like a pelican of the wilderness;
I am become as an owl of the waste places."
Here David from the depths of affliction likened himself to a pelican as it appears when it perches in the wilderness. See Isa 34:11: "But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it; and the owl and the raven shall dwell therein: and he will stretch over it the line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness." Here the bird is used to complete the picture of desolation that was to prevail after the destruction of Edom. The other reference concerns the destruction of Nineveh and is found in Zeph 2:14: "And herds shall lie down in the midst of her, all the beasts of the nations: both the pelican and the porcupine shall lodge in the capitals thereof; their voice shall sing in the windows; desolation shall be in the thresholds: for he hath laid bare the cedar-work."
Gene Stratton-Porter
Bibliography Information
Orr, James, M.A., D.D. General Editor. "Definition for 'PELICAN'". "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia". bible-history.com - ISBE; 1915

 

[Darren in NC]

So maybe rings do exist?

Yes, it appears so. I missed Bonnie's comment there. Thanks for pointing that out. Take the eyelets into account with the website's mention of a hole in the base and it makes solving the puzzle very interesting Was it hanging? As a pyx, that would make sense. Was it on a pole or scepter? In that case, what purpose would it have served? Perhaps it was an incense burner and the the holes were used for holding incense. Then it could have been brought in on a pole or hung. But knowing it has both eyelets and a mount in the base (neither of which have been confirmed) makes it difficult to deduce.

Like you, BCH, I find the hinges most confusing. At first guess, I thought they were there to stabilize whatever it was holding, but the engineering of the hinges don't allow for this. In fact, they move against each other, not together. I wondered about mounted rubies, too. Laura, I like your connection between the rubies and the sacrificial blood. But again the design is awkward. Why would you mount rubies and then cover two of them with a wing? Then again, if the pelican was used as a hanging lamp, the light from the flame would accentuate the rubies. Fascinating.

More pictures, Bonnie! If anyone knows Bill or the staff at the museum, ask if more pictures can be taken. Just don't put it in a lexan box

 

[captbonnie]

again thanks for all the replies -

it would be my feeling that the missing wing came off with the other support or "hinge" - as several noted they are not really hinges made to open
but more of a way to assemble the bird it seems. assuming there were chains and there are two remaining mounting rings for such
(the third fastening would have been on the missing wing) - the chain would be apt to tangle or catch and perhaps contribute to the wing
being pulled off.

here are some more photos -this shows the different pattern in the feathers that Gene Lyons picked up as the "wounding" or "vulning" of the pelican's breast

​

Here is one showing the ring attachment on the head

​

and one of the back side of the bird as if viewing was desigen to be from the front

​

will give this link again as it is worth reading on the "pelican in piety"

http://www.ecphorizer.com/EPS/site_page.php?page=902&issue=56

again thank you all - Mom and I both are really overwhelmed with this find - the beauty of it was apparent from the first but the symbolism of the pelican is such a wonderful story, and it is good to know there are so many people out there on Tnet with the same feeling of wanting to know more, of the wonder of what this is and the history behind it - THAT is treasure hunting -

Bonnie

 

[Darren in NC]

Wow! Thanks for the extra photos, Bonnie. It's absolutely gorgeous. Half the fun has been beholding it - the other half trying to determine its purpose. You guys have unveiled one of the greatest treasures of the 1715 fleet and I'm thrilled that you've shared it with us.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yes thank you for the pictures and sharing with us, Bonnie.

I see now, with the latest excellent picture, that it was assembled from at least 6 pieces (plus pins and eyelets). It looks like the base was crimped on.

I hope you find the other wing.

 

[signumops]

I hope it contained a large egg-shaped golden container that secured an immense ruby or emerald. I hope you find it tomorrow (or whenever the winds die down). Treasure!!

 

[Darren in NC]

You solved it, Terry! This is THE goose that laid the golden egg! 8)

Seriously, having looked at the new pic of the base, I doubt it was ever used on a staff. The back of the fleur-de-lis isn't molded as such. The tail isn't even shaped to help hold the piece to a staff. Of course, the ring on the neck and the fitting on the wing indicate it was hanging. So Laura and BCH's idea of it holding the Eucharist seems even more likely. At least our options are narrowing down.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Lauras idea of a hanging pyx appears to be the most likely.

 

[elle]

Hi...
ok...I hope this helps more.

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., Vol. 11, Detroit: Thomson/Gale,
Washington, D.C. : Catholic University of America, 2003, Pages 63-64.

"In the Christian tradition, the pelican is identified as a symbol of Christ the Redeemer...
In Christian art it is employed from the late Middle Ages, but especially in the Renaisance and in the baroque period.
From the late Middle Ages the pelican is employed also as a symbol of the Eucharist.
In art, particularly in baroque art, the pelican is found frequently as an ornament
on alters, pyxes, chalices, and tabernacle doors."

Remember, the early 1700's was part of the Baroque era.

 

[elle]

Here is something else that is even more interesting:

The Catholic Encyclopedia :
An International Work of Reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Discipline, and History of the Catholic Church.
Charles George Herbermann; Edward A Pace; Condé Bénoist Pallen; Thomas J Shahan; John J Wynne; Andrew Alphonsus MacErlean. New York : Robert Appleton Co., Vol. XII, 1911, P. 588.

"The word pyx was formerly applied in a wide and general sense to all vessels used to contain the Blessed Eucharist.
In particular it was perhaps the commonest term applied to the cup in which the Blessed Sacrament actually
rested when in the Middle Ages it was suspended above the alter. Thus the Custumal of Cluny in the eleventh
century speaks of the deacon taking the golden pyx out of the dove which hangs permanently above the alter. In later
times however it has come about that the term pyx is limited in ordinary usage to that smaller vessel of gold, silver-gilt,
in which the Eucharist is commonly carried to the sick."

I'm thinking there was a small gold cup (with a lid) that slipped into the pelican from the back side and rested within it.
It held the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Darren in NC]

Great reference, Laura. You've outdone yourself.

So Bonnie, you can now be looking for a cup while you're hunting for the wing! Of course, the cup may not have been with the pelican at the time of loss, but we can hope, eh?