gold guilt eagle button need id. better pics added!!! pre civil war??

[Mr Tuff]

i found this button at a 100+ old park, any help from the button masters would be appreciated.. thanks MR TUFF

 

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[Mr Tuff]

thanks everyone for helping on this button. the area it was found has been active since the early 1800s.. i have spent hours looking over the internet for this button. maybe the holy grail of buttons for all i know so i hope we can solve this mystery. and get a good ID. thank you all for ur help MR TUFF.

 

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[Montana Jim]

I just wrote a long thing about the eagle and olive branches and arrows but erased it all in favor of this snopes web page:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/turnhead.asp


In addition, it is a rare button or seal that is wrongly depicted with the arrows in the right talon... it's an error in design in my opinion...

The eagle's turned head is what is most often noticed.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just wrote a long thing about the eagle and olive branches and arrows but erased it all in favor of this snopes web page:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/turnhead.asp


In addition, it is a rare button or seal that is wrongly depicted with the arrows in the right talon... it's an error in design in my opinion...

The eagle's turned head is what is most often noticed.

Thanks Jim. I read it but I need to read it again.

So the head is on a swivel but the arrows were always in the left talon?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

How many design errors in Alberts?

If you look in Alberts Button book.
All of these General Staff buttons have the arrows in the right talon
GS 2,GS 3,GS 4,GS 5,GS 10,GS 11,GS 12, GS 13,GS 14,GS 15,GS 16,GS 17,GS 18,GS 21 and GS 22.

 

[Montana Jim]

The head was never on a swivel... it's only officialy changed once, in the mid 1940s.

The arrows and olive leaves have always been the same offically.

IMO the button makers did'nt care and just turned out the product, sometimes getting it wrong... thats all.

 

[fortbball9]

How many design errors in Alberts?

If you look in Alberts Button book.
All of these General Staff buttons have the arrows in the right talon
GS 2,GS 3,GS 4,GS 5,GS 10,GS 11,GS 12, GS 13,GS 14,GS 15,GS 16,GS 17,GS 18,GS 21 and GS 22.

On every one of the General Staff Buttons that is in Alberts the Eagles head is turned the same way.It
is just the arrows and olive branches different.
I e-mailed Ian Workman to see if he knew why they done the arrows and olive branches in both talons.
But,I haven't heard anything back.As soon as I get a responce I will share it.

fortbball9

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

How many design errors in Alberts?

If you look in Alberts Button book.
All of these General Staff buttons have the arrows in the right talon
GS 2,GS 3,GS 4,GS 5,GS 10,GS 11,GS 12, GS 13,GS 14,GS 15,GS 16,GS 17,GS 18,GS 21 and GS 22.

On every one of the General Staff Buttons that is in Alberts the Eagles head is turned the same way.It
is just the arrows and olive branches different.
I e-mailed Ian Workman to see if he knew why they done the arrows and olive branches in both talons.
But,I haven't heard anything back.As soon as I get a responce I will share it.

fortbball9

Head turn= OK
Arrows in right talon= Not ok

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The head was never on a swivel... it's only officialy changed once, in the mid 1940s.

I think twice.


"The coat of arms on the presidential flag changed again in 1945... so that it once more faced in the same direction as the one on the Great Seal..."

...Churchill said he thought the eagles head should be on a swivel. (from snopes).

 

[Montana Jim]

The head was never on a swivel... it's only officialy changed once, in the mid 1940s.

I think twice.


"The coat of arms on the presidential flag changed again in 1945... so that it once more faced in the same direction as the one on the Great Seal..."

...Churchill said he thought the eagles head should be on a swivel. (from snopes).

Ha! Missed that!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I had to go back and read it again (I still am not sure) but the main point is the arrows have always officially been in the left talon. As you stated, the right talon arrows were probably hastily made in error by the button companies.

 

[fortbball9]

How many design errors in Alberts?

If you look in Alberts Button book.
All of these General Staff buttons have the arrows in the right talon
GS 2,GS 3,GS 4,GS 5,GS 10,GS 11,GS 12, GS 13,GS 14,GS 15,GS 16,GS 17,GS 18,GS 21 and GS 22.

Does anyone have a Tices button book.Does it have any General Staff with the arrows in the right talon
If you check this link out it shows General Staff buttons two with arrows in left talon and two with arrows in right talon.I still don't think that it is a mistake on the Civil War General Staff buttons.There are two many CW websites that shoes buttons both way.
http://www.picketpost.com/usnondug.htm

fortbball9

 

[RelicHunterBob]

Tice's book has 6, 7A & B, 8A & B, 9, 19 & 20 with arrows in the left talon. Four in 19 & 20 and three in the other. Pics on pg 294.

Bob K

How many design errors in Alberts?

If you look in Alberts Button book.
All of these General Staff buttons have the arrows in the right talon
GS 2,GS 3,GS 4,GS 5,GS 10,GS 11,GS 12, GS 13,GS 14,GS 15,GS 16,GS 17,GS 18,GS 21 and GS 22.

Does anyone have a Tices button book.Does it have any General Staff with the arrows in the right talon
If you check this link out it shows General Staff buttons two with arrows in left talon and two with arrows in right talon.I still don't think that it is a mistake on the Civil War General Staff buttons.There are two many CW websites that shoes buttons both way.
http://www.picketpost.com/usnondug.htm

fortbball9

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its a mystery to me. Snopes is usually right on. Are the right arrow buttons all the same type or manufacturer? What do they have in common?

 

[fortbball9]

There are many different markers such as.

Scovill Mfg Co/Waterbury
Waterbury Button Co
Thomas N. Dale & Co/New York
D. Evans & Co/Attleboro Mass
Schuyler Hartley & Graham/N.Y.
Kendrick & Co/Waterbury Conn
Young, Smith & Co/New York
Horstmann Bro & Co/Phil
W.G. Mintzer/Phil
Canfield Bro & Co/Baltimore

And there are several more,I don't see anything that they have in common.
So I still can't answer the question.But I don't think that they made all of these buttons wrong
by mistake from this many different makers.

fortbball9

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks. What direction are the heads turned? On my WWI buttons, the eagles head all face right (our left) toward the olive branch.

Has the head direction really changed in 1945 as Snopes says?

 

[fortbball9]

Every General Staff Button in Alberts with the arrows in the left and right talon,If you
are looking at the button the Eagle is facing to our left no matter what is in the
right talon (arrows or olive branch)

fortbball9

 

[fortbball9]

I just received my reply from Ian Workman about the Eagle and arrows in the left or right talon.
Here is his reply.I hope this shed some light on the arrows.

Tim,

Sorry for the late reply. I have been really busy. The eagles facing the arrows on eagle buttons are referred to as war buttons. The rest of them are just regular. Keep an eye out for the war eagle buttons because they cost a little more money and you can sometimes buy them for next to nothing. I hope this answers your question.

Sincerely,
Ian Workman

So that is all that I know about the eagle facing the arrows.

fortbball9

 

[Mr Tuff]

I just received my reply from Ian Workman about the Eagle and arrows in the left or right talon.
Here is his reply.I hope this shed some light on the arrows.

Tim,

Sorry for the late reply. I have been really busy. The eagles facing the arrows on eagle buttons are referred to as war buttons. The rest of them are just regular. Keep an eye out for the war eagle buttons because they cost a little more money and you can sometimes buy them for next to nothing. I hope this answers your question.

Sincerely,
Ian Workman

So that is all that I know about the eagle facing the arrows.

fortbball9

so it is a war button. but now witch war i wonder? still amazed that no one has seen such a button! thanks for the prolonged effort on this ID.. MR TUFF

 

[Mr Tuff]

ever since the eagle I button i found last week. i have been pondering this button again.. going to see if i can try to ID this type of button . for a second time lol. it is winter and nothing better to do MR TUFF

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have seen that back Mr.Tuff and it was recently. I should have saved it. I think I may have seen it at the military surplus store.