Getting really warm - the Great Cave!

[cavers5]

Swiftsearcher,

With all due respect to you and others, Mike Steely reported as accurately as he possibly could concerning the circumstances mentioned in his article.

A few points from Mike's article: 1. It's been more than just a "few" years ago that this find occurred. 2. The finding of a statue is a completely separate incident. 3. There were no silver ingots found at the time and nobody has seen those either. That's not to say that they don't exist, because there's no telling what's in the cave.

Please note that Mike did not say it was the people from Florida that dynamited the Pigeon Water Cave and please note how I stated there was not a cornstalk carving "outside of the cave." (Just pointed these two facts out after reading your paraphrased posts above.)

If you are writing a chapter and it concerns quoting or paraphrasing Mike and/or me, I'd like to ask that you do so as accurately as possible. Yes, I've met Mike and he and a buddy were kind enough to show me some rock carvings in the past.

Now as to Mr. Hall, he is completely wrong and if he has stated such things, in my opinion, he has done so to throw people off the trail, so to speak. Yes, I have met Mr. Hall. He is correct in stating that people had previously tried to pump the water out of the cave. The statue is a completely separate incident, NOT associated with Pigeon Water Cave. There is no sandstone entrance.

I don't like to "bite at bait," so to speak, and as far as I know, I don't know you from JackAdam, however, I wanted to take a moment to clarify the stories concerning Pigeon Water Cave.

Good luck in your searches and your book,
Cavers5

 

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[swiftsearcher]

Cavers5,

You are correct that the article does NOT specify the cave was Pigeon Water, but, since the article was about Pigeon Water, it leads one to believe "one of the caves" mentioned by Steely was either Pigeon Water or one of its entrances.

As for the Chapter in my book, I am ONLY using information from my sources. As one can see in this thread, when quoting articles/books, things can be factually incorrect (or not inaccurate).

I apologize if you thought I was baiting you requesting more information about Pigeon Water Cave, as I was not. I simply wanted to know more about the "find" or "finds", as the Silver certainly does NOT relate to Swift nor the Great Cave and I was simply wanting to try and figure out with more certainty who this cache belonged to (or, at least have more facts to back up my Sol Mullins argument or go back to the Cornstalk argument). TBH, I was hoping anyone in the "know" would answer my question(s) regarding Pigeon Water Cave.

As for the Silver "ingots" you mention, I have no idea what you are talking about. The ONLY "things" I ever heard that were in Pigeon Water Cave were the statue and Silver "coins". I believe I have stated this above as well. Where I mentioned Silver bars, I was referring to Swift's "Cache" that is suppose to be in the Great Cave. Swift clearly stated in several copies of his journal that the Great Cave was a storehouse of Silver Crowns and Bars, as well as Gold. I have NEVER related this statement to Pigeon Water Cave, as I am CERTAIN that Pigeon Water Cave is NOT the Great Cave Swift mentioned in his journal(s).

Again, I apologize for anything I stated that was inaccurate. The statements I made on this forum about Pigeon Water were simply taken from Mr. Steely's article (which I figured most everyone here has read by now). The statements I will make in my book about Pigeon Water will be from a personal interview I made with a friend of the original finder (BTW - This "original finder" might not even be the person referred to in the article, as this "find" in Pigeon Water Cave happened many years before the 1980's/1990's!).

I REALLY appreciate what tidbits of information you have given us in this thread however! Again, I don't want you to think that I was trying to pry information out of you for my book. As I have stated, I am CERTAIN Pigeon Water Cave has NOTHING to do with Swift (UNLESS it is Cornstalk's cache - then, it will be his and not Swift's cache in the Great Cave). Lastly, I would NEVER quote anyone or article in my upcoming book without permission of the author(s)! In fact, I am not going to quote any book or article at all!!! I am simply going to tell my story and publish the journal copies I have and lead the reader on my quest and show him/her where to find everything Swift mentions in the journals (plus, this will save many days/weeks of seeking permission to print certain articles/stories as well).

 

[swiftsearcher]

Beale, I stated Chief CORNSTALK - NOT Cornwallis. There have been several books state Cornstalk was in this area and that he actually assisted Swift and Co. The article stated there was a carving of a cornstalk at the cave (not outside, as Cavers5 pointed out). This would lead one to believe that the cache might have been Cornstalk's (again, NOT Cornwallis).

Also, I believe Cavers5 stated the "coins" found were NOT Crowns. A lot of the old stories (even some Swift Journals) have stated these counterfeiters made "dollars", when they were actually other Silver coins. These stories were probably written down (or changed) when the term dollar was used (instead of Crowns, Pieces of Eight, etc.). Also, some of the counterfeiters made more than one type of coin as well. If Mullins was not convicted of actually counterfeiting Silver Dollars, he could very well have been making other types of Silver Coins besides the actual Silver Dollars also (he would have just been on trial for the dollars at the time).

BTW - You do have some very valid points about the "cache" being stolen by Indians or others (and is possible). I believe if someone had a pic (or even better description) of the statue and other details (like the saddle bags), one could figure out who this belonged to and maybe even where it came from (if it was stolen). Again, the only thing I do know for certain about the cache at Pigeon Water is that it was NOT Swift's nor was it the Great Cave. I do believe it existed however, b/c my source (who is very knowledgeable and reliable and respected) was friends with the original finder.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Beale, you might be correct about the cache not being Sol Mullins'. IF there was a cache and the identification of the statue was correct, it very well could be a Melungeon cache however (as the descriptions I heard of the statue - both in Steely's article and elsewhere, fit the Melungeon description). Personally, I believe there was a cache found in Pigeon Water Cave, as I interviewed a close friend of the original "finder", and this person was asked to go along with the original finder and get his thoughts on the cache and how to get the statue out. People close to the find at Pigeon Water (and the recovery later) are rather tight-lipped about it.

As for the Great Cave, I do believe there will definitely be some Shawnee "artifacts" in the cave (as you described). There are quite a few Indian Caves around and caches found. The Swift Journals I have read simply state the cave he stored his excess silver and gold in as "The Indian Cave". I know there are a couple more that state the cave is "The Great Shawnee Cave". It very well could be. However, it very well could not be also. Swift never gave much info. about the cave in his journals (other than it being their storehouse). I do believe IF someone ever find the cave Swift referred to, the skeletons of the dead crew will still be there (along with the Indians Swift killed as well). THIS will be a sign one has the cave Swift referred to (along with the cache). I know there have been people who claimed to find caves of silver bricks related to Swift over the years. One can definitely tell that these are LIES, as the people never mention the crowns, gold or dead bodies of Swift's crew. ALSO, Swift walled up the storage room before leaving with masonry. To find the storehouse (unless the masonry has crumbled), one would have to metal detect the cave walls!

Again, I was lucky enough to come across an old Swift map from a friend of mine in AZ. It has, what might be, markings that would indicate the location of Swift's "Great Cave". However, the area is SO DENSE with laurel and rocky, and the entrance(s) probably so small, that it is worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack! Plus, there is the area at another of Swift's mines (where I took the pic above) that has several caves and is near a Great Ridge (and could extend from one side to the other). This area also has the only Indian Petroglyph I have seen within miles of the mines. So, this area is promising as well. The only thing I can do is get out and start somewhere and hope I have some luck.

 

[cavers5]

Swiftsearcher,

Thanks for the update and clarification. The silver ingots I mention are referred to in Steely's article. Again, there is no statue associated with Pigeon Water Cave. I do not know who your source is, but as I know the story firsthand, I would like to suggest that perhaps you can do a little more research on exactly what you have been told and you'll find that your source's story is lacking some verifiable credibility.

Good luck with your book,
Cavers5

 

[mikesteely]

Hello everyone, just wanted to drop in a say a few words, as an old and semi-retired Swift searcher.

I can't tell you how much I miss Michael Paul Henson and his wife, who were for years friends of mine and
many others. Both of them were great folks, avid writers and treasure hunters, and very special.

I didn't know until recently that my old buddy and treasure hunter Tommy Veal has passed away as well. He was
involved in many hunts, had some successes, and was also a member of the Tennessee Native American
group. He and Linda were a great couple and I last saw them a few years ago at the Sequoyah Birthplace
Museum's Great Island Festival.

So, I guess it's time that the torch is passed to you younger guys and gals. I'm not crawling around in
caves anymore and, boy, I miss that. I'm only metal detecting school yards now but I'm keeping up with
the news, dropping in here occassionally, and passing along as much information as I can.

I do have an interesting story about the last Swift search I was on, carvings of a rifle, Monday's name carved
on rocks, etc., but I've sworn not to reveal it yet.

Be glad to help anyone out there in the Swift Legend if you'd like to email me at [email protected].

Also...there's a couple INCORRECT things in my book that came to light since I wrote it, one is about the
discovery of silver bars in Pine Mountian. The discovery, and photo, were apparently faked and the
person who did it also took advantage of Michael Paul and his wife in a shady deal, that from the Hensons
themselves to me a few years back.

There may also be some minor errors in the story of the discovery of the Great Shawnee Cave near
Elkhorn City, but I wrote what I was told at the time. I spent 16 years as a newspaper reporter back then
and you can only report what you are told.

Anyway, if I can help you or give you a clue you may not have, email me. Thanks folks.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Cavers5, thanks for the clarification. I know you are really close to the story and trust/believe what you say. I did go back through my records today (both Steely's article and my interview notes, which I haven't looked at in well over a year). I can say that the only place I had heard of the statue was Steely's article and that my source simply mentioned Silver "coins" (I felt I need to clarify that). At the time, my source was shown a coin (while there were still many in the cave) and was contacted b/c many consider him a Swift Expert (as do I consider him an expert on Swift).

Mr. Steely, it is also great to hear from you. In your defense, I DO believe you wrote exactly as you were told. We ALL should know that 99.9% of treasure hunters (ESPECIALLY when there is actually treasure found) tell different things to different people. I enjoyed your article so much so that I ordered two back-issue magazines with your article in them. From our few e-mails, I believe you are a very honest man. Also, as you both have pointed out, things (stories) change over the years as well. I really hate to hear the silver bars shown in your book were faked. However, I do have to admit I wondered why so many treasure hunters over the years had searched and detected that area and found NOTHING - especially when the "finder" stated the silver bars were not that deep (only a few feet - which any detector could pick up). Things are overlooked however, as the place I found the 18th Century Silversmith Chasing Hammer (near Swift's/Montgomery's furnace rockhouse) had been overlooked and I was told early on by my source mentioned above that that place had been "hunted out" and there was nothing left there now! So, it does happen. BTW - I have tried electrolysis on the hammer, but will have to get a larger device. There does appear to be an "M" in the middle of the hammer's head (which I believe was used by Montgomery and will state the reasons why in my book).

One of the reasons I wanted to divulge everything in my book (other than there being no Silver Caches left) is that I wanted people to get the TRUTH first hand. As proved in this thread with Pigeon Water Cave, there are SEVERAL different stories out there and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of this. As for mentioning the cave in my book, I might simply sneak in a paragraph or two about what I was told by my source, but will definitely not try and piece the puzzle of Pigeon Water Cave together in a Chapter or in detail of any kind!

 

[swiftsearcher]

Not to get too far off topic here. However, Mike Steely's mentioning of Munday carvings reminds me of something I found a couple years ago. As I have stated before I have found some Swift Carvings around, but not many b/c Swift only mentioned marking Cache sites and the trail leading to the mines (with several "curious" marks on the trail to the mines, which encompasses a large area). Also, other than not marking much at the mine sites, it makes sense he wouldn't have also (as when he and his Co. left, they planned to return and wouldn't have wanted the mines easily found - only after he went blind, did Swift want someone else to find the mines). However, a couple years back, I found an old dead tree with the bark now gone at the top of a clift. One could tell a name had been carved into the tree a very long time ago and you could make out the name on the wood now showing (that had been beneath the bark before the tree had died). The name was GIST! I have some pics of this as well and will go into detail about this and its possible connection to Swift!

Might I add as well that my friend, Ralph Hurst, mentioned that the more he thought about the rock pictured above, the more it looked like the rock might be larger and some of it (and more carvings) be under ground now (as 250 years of sediments have covered much of it). This makes a lot of sense and I did tell Ralph that the next time I get to the cave (next day I get to go out hopefully), I will dig around the front of this rock and see if this might be the case (more of it underground and maybe more symbols as well).

 

[swiftsearcher]

Here is a scan of a Swift made French Crown (date has been omitted so I can verify other real Swift "finds" since the molds had the same date supposedly). All you can make out of the date is the 1 and part of the 7. Cavers5 stated the Pigeon Water find consisted of "other" coins. I have posted this scan simply to put to rest any thoughts that Pigeon Water is/was the Great Cave Swift hid his cache in or that it is related to Swift in ANY way/form.

Also, I stated above Swift did not mark any of the mine sites. Swift DID tack a "card" up at the tree in front of the Rich Mine opening. However, the "card" Swift tacked stating Swift and Munday's mine is long gone and the tree is laying in front of the opening decaying, as it is not standing any longer.

 

[SwiftHistoryman]

There is a picture of the "cornstalk" that is on the ridge at the top of the mountain where the water cave is posted in the cravings thread on this topic. I will post it here again.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Just a little updated info. on the rock above (the one I posted several posts above). I went back a couple of times. It has several more carvings I was able to chalk out. Also, there is a "ghost face" rock beside of it.

To make a long story short, this has nothing to do with the Great Cave or Swift, but the KGC! It has led me to another area (I found Christmas Day) that has a huge circle carved into the clift, JJ carved in the clift about 5-6ft. in length, the crosses from this rock carved into the clift (again very large), a carved arrowhead rock, a snake tree, several trees with carvings, a couple of bullet hole trees - one of which has a perfect heart carved at the base, etc.! To make a long day/story short, I followed all the signs (and there were more than I listed) and was led to a ledge. On the ledge, a rock has been cut out and in behind is red old masonry. There is a large rock on the ledge that appears to be holding the "cut rock" in place or keeping it from falling. I believe this might be a "vault" the KGC has cut into the solid rock clift and replaced the face rock back!? Anyway, I didn't have the tools to pry the rocks down and bust through the masonry with me, but am planning on going back. I have also posted a pic of the "vault" and would love to get some opinions from all you KGC "experts"! BTW - I will appreciate any/all opinions on this site/vault and love to hear them. When it comes to the KGC, I guess no opinion is too far fetched. I do admit I am a bit nervous that this "vault" might be boob-trapped in some way (though there are no rocks above the entrance on the outside, as that was the first thing I checked.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Do I see a hummingbird?

 

[swiftfan]

It's kinda hard to tell for sure, but there does seem to be a color varation in the white paint. I see what appears to be a bird of some sort standing facing left. I don't see wings folded back, but tailfeathers coming back to a point. With it facing left, what direction would that be? North, East, South, West? Could be another direction indicator. In one of the journals it mentions a distance "as the crow flies." This could be a crow showing direction.

 

[swiftfan]

Swiftsearcher,
In the bottom right of your picture I notice a reddish looking rock, with another above it that do look out of place. Also, the horizontal lines not far from there look like they could be cut marks from where someone tried to get in there once, or they were some of the toolmarks made as the rock was carved. But, without being able to inspect it oneself, it's is hard to say for sure that is what this is. I have seen things like this before that turned out to be nothing more than the natural lay of the rock. My area is full of large, cracked rock that look like they could have been carved at one point. However, the color of the reddish looking rock is interesting...

 

[swiftsearcher]

Swiftfan, you are ABSOLUTELY correct in your assumptions on the photo! There are carved marks showing.

I went back a few days after taking this pic with a couple of friends I met on here (KGC hunters from KY) and showed them this place. We were able to find several great carvings (including several Quantrill and others).

Again, there is a large arrowhead rock that points to this "vault". It is on the ground and about 24 inches square and has been carved with "steps" on the face of the rock going uphill toward this vault. In between the arrowhead rock and the "vault" is a tree that is dead and has several bullet holes and woodpecker holes in it. At the base of this tree is a perfect heart carved into it (about 2 1/2 inches in diameter). Also, above this tree, another tree has another perfect heart carved into the bottom of it. I have also noticed a perfect "4" carved into the ledge the last time I was there and about twenty ft. or more off the ground a perfect muleshoe carved near this vault!

BTW - maybe some KGC expert can help me out here. behind a rock on the ledge there looks to be an entrance into this vault. The hole has been filled with some large rocks. Also, there is a saltlick and a small (about one ft. long) piece of wood in the hole. Was this done to symbolize anything?

Also, bad news on the rock that has been fitted back on the vault (pictured above). It will not budge! I took some tools to try and pry it off, but they used blood in their masonry (the red you see above) and it is SOLID! To remove this rock, one would have to blast! However, there is the other entrance I discussed in the first sentence of this paragraph. The only problem here is that my shoulders are too broad for me to fit into the opening. I had heard that the KGC always used the "skinniest" of their members to make these openings and hide the "booty" for lack of a better word. Again, any/all opinions will be greatly appreciated!

 

[branhams_04]

Been to the area, with the corn stalk carved in it on several occasions, if you are in the area some time and need some help give me a shout

 

[swiftfan]

Along withe the rocks I noticed, there is really nothing in the picture to gauge the size of the opening. Above the ledge, look for a waypoint marker, just to make sure that you haven't found a false door meant to keep you there, rather than on to the real area. If you have any questions or ideas and want another opinion feel free to PM me.

Good luck,

Swiftfan

 

[swiftsearcher]

Swiftfan,

I just now noticed I had not replied to you. You are/were correct! The part pictured above was a FALSE DOOR! However, we have now found the real entrance - turns out you have to move two LARGE columns of large rocks that were masoned together. We can no see in the vault and there is a pathway that branches off into chambers! The process has been really slow, as you have to destroy each rock of the columns. Ever who designed this did it superb. The rocks are cut triangularly and masoned together. You cannot move any of them, after breaking lose the masonry, more than a quarter of an inch. So, the only way to get them out is to break them up (or, if one had the equipment, you could "hoist" them out, but they are very heavy and the site is too long of a walk to take a lot of equipment for hoisting).

We have tried vinegar (after heating the rocks at length with huge fires). However, with these rocks, it only makes the outside of the rocks easier to crumble. What we need to do is find some fiber optics cable (around 50+) ft. with a camera and light on the end. This way, we could find out which chamber or chambers have the "good stuff" in it/them and figure out a quicker way in. If we knew to an extent that there was something of "value" in there and knew where it was, I would open up more options of getting in - like black powder and blasting. I need to check the internet when I have a couple hours one day/night and see where I can find some rig, like the one I mentioned, for a decent price. If anyone here has one, we would be willing to cut you in for a % of what is inside (we even have contracts to sign to make everything on the up and up). Also, if anyone reading has equipment like I mentioned plus knowledge in using explosives, that would be a HUGE PLUS! You can e-mail me directly at [email protected] if you think you might be able to help out.

 

[swiftfan]

You know, You would think there would be a airshaft. Usually, a second entrance was dug in case of a cave-in. Could be on the other side of the hill from you, connecting to your vault. But most likely it would be just as hard to get into. I don't have any simple tool ideas (other than the vinegar), It may just take alot of hard work to open up. Good luck, and watch for snakes!

-swiftfan-

 

[swiftsearcher]

I have found the airshaft part. However, you are correct - almost as hard to get into as the original shaft (plus, we have done quite a bit of work on the original shaft, so it would actually take longer with the airshaft now). Ever who did this, didn't want to make it easy on anyone!