Gates blocking access on BLM land.

[arthos]

So I keep coming across gates blocking road access while on BLM land. Most recently in an area many people target shoot (lots of old hard rock mines andprospects in the area). Whats up with that? Can they legally block access like this?

This particular gate block the road a long distance from where the road connects to public street. Meaning you have to turn around and drive back the way you came to exit.

 

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[Bejay]

Gated public lands are a result of determination by land management agencies that the public should not have vehicular use. It is the determination factor that brings forth opinions. One would think that such gated barriers could be open to regulated/permitted use; so that the public could even use vehicles when desired. Vehicle access could be allowed and regulated without a barrier baring all public from use. Having lived in the North Western States all my life I have personally witnessed human and grazing problems often. But gates are a barrier that should be open with regulated permitted use; which in turn can allow the management agency the ability to oversee each users use. I too have witnessed grazing in wilderness and road less areas that left one scratching their head; as to the problems resulting from the cow crap in the pristine creeks. There is no doubt we have all seen the problems caused by humans....and no doubt the management agencies make determinations based on their opinions to resolve such problems. I only wish they would recognize that sometimes there are better ways to handle things than by simply placing a gate/barrier across public access to public lands. IMHO

Bejay

 

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[Kray Gelder]

Agreed, Bejay.

 

[oneguy]

Gated public lands are a result of determination by land management agencies that the public should not have vehicular use.

Bejay

Understood about the vehicles, I'm kinda ok with some of that but it's always one more road closure? Less and less access every year? Then to use taxpayer dollars to pay a crew to go in and "decommission" an already gated road so you can't even hike or horseback because of the tank traps, fallen trees, boulders added? It's actually easier to walk above the "road" on the steep with all the blowdown crawling under and over than to try and walk the "decommissioned" road...........

 

[Rail Dawg]

Anyone who wants government welfare and is capable of working should be forced to do work for the people paying for their home, food, health-care, cell phones and cars.

Every day the BLM bus shows up and you're taken out to a site where trash is collected and areas cleaned.

Don't show up?

No credit for that day.

A policy like this would encourage honest work and at the same time benefit the very society providing the check.

 

[Goldstar1]

The following is just my opinion. My opinion is formed on the back of years of direct experience but it is just an opinion. We all got one.

This is the crux of the governments dilemma - BLM has a mandate to protect the lands they manage. BLM management (a succession of presidents) have squandered limited money and resources on so many programs that don't protect the land that the only way the BLM is left with to protect the land is to close it to public use.

How many of you are old enough to remember a time when BLM and forest employees were unarmed, friendly and helpful? Did you know there were no LEO BLM or Forest employees in the field before 1980?

Since 1980 the creation of an enforcement emphasis rather than a maintenance, patrol and education emphasis has created a culture of closure and exclusion. This can be directly attributed to the simple fact that since 1980 agency LEOs gained precedence in hiring, budget, seniority, and work privileges. They are paid more than other employees with the same experience, rank and time served because they are LEO qualified. As a BLM employee it's a guaranteed raise if you get law enforcement qualified. We all gotta feed our families so it's a no brainer for a BLM employee to get that qualification if they can.

The reason these areas get and stay trashed is partially due to the simple fact that LEO qualified employees are exempt from picking up trash or cleaning in public. With the pre 1980 culture most of a BLM field employee's time was spent keeping their assigned area clean and assisting the visiting public. Friendly presence + an actual mission to maintain the land led to public respect, understanding and cleaner use areas.

As the various budget cuts have come and gone though the last 35 years each round of layoffs to meet the new budget has resulted in non LEO employees being laid off first by policy. When rehiring with an increased budget comes around applicants with a LEO certificate have been hired first by policy.

It was foreseeable and perhaps inevitable that we would end up with a BLM that is populated with gun toting do nothing "cops". The BLM no longer has the qualified personal to actually maintain the land they are charged with protecting. Add to that all the bitter greenies that wasted their college years studying forestry or ecology to get a dead end job in a BLM office and you've got a toxic mix of frustrated bitter wannabe environmentalists and swollen headed cops.

We used to hire our fellow citizens to keep our public places clean and maintained. Now we hire cops to tell us what we can't do in those public places. That trash was left by a disrespectful public. The arrogant attitudes and lack of maintenance of our public lands by the very people we hire to care for those lands is a prime cause of the lack of respect for these lands by the public in my opinion. When the BLM gets back to actually maintaining the land, puts down the guns and the attitude and stops trying to preserve by exclusion rather than maintaining with hands on action we will eventually get back to a respectful public who cooperate in keeping our public lands clean and open.

Until then ...

Heavy Pans

I am glad this got brought up , I have been noticing for the last 5-10 years or so many many BLM and NFS roads being closed off that I used to use , I would almost say about 70-80 percent in some areas. I have been asking more people what they think and it and most have observed the same thing . It may be a function of not wanting budget for the maintenance of the areas and its just easier to close it off . I think you are right on about the city vs urban mentality , I have always just driven , hiked and camped where I wanted to and been responsible for leaving a place how I found it , and cleaning up trash putting the fire dead out.
I had a big shock when I went to northern California years ago and went on a camp trip with a friend that lived there and realized no you dont just camp where you want and gather some dead wood together for a camp fire . You have to pay and camp at a paved designated camp spot 10 feet from the next person and you have to buy firewood or get a ticket for gathering some branches. I think people in those populated states just see it as normal and thats just what you do and god forbid you wander of the designated trail.

I am not that old but I remember camping when i was a kid in the late 70s and 80s and my dad would just drive us out in the middle of nowhere and we would camp and have a great time , if a tree fell in the road he would cut it and keep going. Back then if there was a ranger out he/she was just friendly with a wave and maybe wore a cowboy hat and a revolver . Now you have these BLM troopers that look like they just got back from Afghanistan with full kevlar and M4s . I asked a couple of these type guys nicely a few years ago if there was a fire ban in the area I was going to be camping in and theyre reply was "well we would rather you didnt" , that wasnt the question.

I think that is a big part of the problem is you get these rangers that want to make up the law for however they see fit. I do agree that there are idiots out there trashing places , shooting unsafely and causing trouble and that is a shame but it doesnt negate the freedoms for the rest of us . I am worried about what the future will look like for my kids . Will they just accept that if you want to go prospecting , hikeing, fishing whatever you have to pay for a permit and pay to stay in designated campgrounds and stay on designated trails ? I hope not but at some point they just may not know of any other way .

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Its not legal for them to do it. Here is code:

43 U.S. Code § 1061 - Inclosure of or assertion of right to public lands without title
US Code
Authorities (CFR)
All inclosures of any public lands in any State or Territory of the United States, heretofore or to be hereafter made, erected, or constructed by any person, party, association, or corporation, to any of which land included within the inclosure the person, party, association, or corporation making or controlling the inclosure had no claim or color of title made or acquired in good faith, or an asserted right thereto by or under claim, made in good faith with a view to entry thereof at the proper land office under the general laws of the United States at the time any such inclosure was or shall be made, are declared to be unlawful, and the maintenance, erection, construction, or control of any such inclosure is forbidden and prohibited; and the assertion of a right to the exclusive use and occupancy of any part of the public lands of the United States in any State or any of the Territories of the United States, without claim, color of title, or asserted right as above specified as to inclosure, is likewise declared unlawful, and prohibited.
(Feb. 25, 1885, ch. 149, § 1, 23 Stat. 321.)

Bejay

 

[Kray Gelder]

I am glad this got brought up , I have been noticing for the last 5-10 years or so many many BLM and NFS roads being closed off that I used to use , I would almost say about 70-80 percent in some areas. I have been asking more people what they think and it and most have observed the same thing . It may be a function of not wanting budget for the maintenance of the areas and its just easier to close it off . I think you are right on about the city vs urban mentality , I have always just driven , hiked and camped where I wanted to and been responsible for leaving a place how I found it , and cleaning up trash putting the fire dead out.
I had a big shock when I went to northern California years ago and went on a camp trip with a friend that lived there and realized no you dont just camp where you want and gather some dead wood together for a camp fire . You have to pay and camp at a paved designated camp spot 10 feet from the next person and you have to buy firewood or get a ticket for gathering some branches. I think people in those populated states just see it as normal and thats just what you do and god forbid you wander of the designated trail.

I am not that old but I remember camping when i was a kid in the late 70s and 80s and my dad would just drive us out in the middle of nowhere and we would camp and have a great time , if a tree fell in the road he would cut it and keep going. Back then if there was a ranger out he/she was just friendly with a wave and maybe wore a cowboy hat and a revolver . Now you have these BLM troopers that look like they just got back from Afghanistan with full kevlar and M4s . I asked a couple of these type guys nicely a few years ago if there was a fire ban in the area I was going to be camping in and theyre reply was "well we would rather you didnt" , that wasnt the question.

I think that is a big part of the problem is you get these rangers that want to make up the law for however they see fit. I do agree that there are idiots out there trashing places , shooting unsafely and causing trouble and that is a shame but it doesnt negate the freedoms for the rest of us . I am worried about what the future will look like for my kids . Will they just accept that if you want to go prospecting , hikeing, fishing whatever you have to pay for a permit and pay to stay in designated campgrounds and stay on designated trails ? I hope not but at some point they just may not know of any other way .

Well said, Goldstar. I haven't been on BLM land for fifteen years, so I can't speak to that. However, in what I would term casual conversations with Game agents, or local law enforcement officers, and even with federal agents, these conversations are not casual. You can see that as a citizen, we are a threat. Current training for these people, many of them Veterans of recent urban conflicts, is that all encounters with civilians are life and death. No matter who or what, they could cause harm. So we all present an immediate danger to them. They're not so friendly any more. You would think sometimes that we are an occupied population. We just don't know it yet.

 

[Rail Dawg]

Hey where we go in Northern Nevada we haven't EVER seen a BLM ranger.

I mean we're talking way out there lol.

Millions of wide-open acres out there that belong to us just treat it right.

 

[Kray Gelder]

Hey where we go in Northern Nevada we haven't EVER seen a BLM ranger.

I mean we're talking way out there lol.

Millions of wide-open acres out there that belong to us just treat it right.

That is some seriously remote and wonderful country. I clambered about there back in the day. Collecting geology specimens.

 

[littlehugger]

DONT forget that BLM lands are often prime points of illegal entry, which is one big reason for the LEO shift.
These same invaders probably have a hand in the trash and destruction too.

 

[mendoAu]

I have this vision...I guy somewhat like myself has pretty much just said "hells, bells I'm still going to put my dredge in the water, transport it with a four wheel drive Toyota with a utility trailer half on a dirt road and half way straight up the middle of the creek. Piece of cake. Now about those fish....in this guy's waterway (creek) it's been designated EHS (look it up). So those fish get a free ride...no fishing, period. Can't even dumby them up now and then with catch and release. How perfect for the fish. And don't worry, he's kept a close eye on things and NO noticeable damage to them creek bugs and fishes. Just perhaps a slow moving newt floats down stream on ce or twice....but oh well!!
As for the locks on those gates have you ever contacted the local BLM and asked for a key to access those locks to proceed to your destination, esp. if it's to a mining claim.

 

[Bejay]

There are two separate issues pertaining to "gates" and access. One has to do with the general public and one has to do with Granted Rights of miners. Thus a miner asking for permission to go thru a BLM or USFS gate on a road is different than the general public asking for permission. In the Northwest many private timber companies who own large tracts of timber lands gate their roads as well. Often; during hunting season a person may get permission to access beyond their gates if the hunter asks and can offer their drivers license number and contact information. The private timber company wants the ability to oversee the access. Makes sense to me. But our land management agencies (who manage for the public) take little concern to offer such waivers on gates...at least that has been my experience. Mining gives me granted access and being just a citizen excludes me....when I have asked BLM/USFS.

Bejay

 

[arthos]

Gold washer knows the area. Yes some *******s dump giant lodes of trash, old boats, and occasionally large numbers of used tires. Some times you see an old refrigerator someone dragged out to use as target practice shot to ****. That's a DAMN shame, we all can agree on that, and people shouldn't do it. However closing off real access to said lands is horse ****. Mineral discovery, 4X4, trail-riding, mountain biking, shooting, hunting, and camping, these and many other uses are legitimate and I don't see how they can get away with blocking vehicle access. Those who litter should be fined. Don't have the manpower to enforce littering laws? Than BLM and Forrest service employees should clean it up. Don't have the manpower or funding to do that? Than they need to make changes in order to make that happen, or come up with something else entirely. Infringing on the freedoms of all because of the abuse of the few should not be an option. And yet they are doing it.

@goldwasher Yes that gate is about half way down the road from SteelPeak shooting area south toward Medowbrook. BLM has gated and put up cable fences at most entrances into those hills, including Medorbrook and the fireroad off Highway 74 at GoodHope Mine. Cable fences off Christmasstree lane unsure if there is a gate yet.

 

[arthos]

There are two separate issues pertaining to "gates" and access. One has to do with the general public and one has to do with Granted Rights of miners. Thus a miner asking for permission to go thru a BLM or USFS gate on a road is different than the general public asking for permission. In the Northwest many private timber companies who own large tracts of timber lands gate their roads as well. Often; during hunting season a person may get permission to access beyond their gates if the hunter asks and can offer their drivers license number and contact information. The private timber company wants the ability to oversee the access. Makes sense to me. But our land management agencies (who manage for the public) take little concern to offer such waivers on gates...at least that has been my experience. Mining gives me granted access and being just a citizen excludes me....when I have asked BLM/USFS.

Bejay

I know that to be true, have hear similar situations where a claimant has received a key to locked gates by BLM/FS but if its the public's land why should that gate be there keeping normal people out in the first place..

 

[gldguy1]

Just sayin

 

[wildminer]

A friend of mine is a FS employee in charge of all the roads in his district and we were talking gold prospecting and mining, which he is very much in favor of and on our side. He asked me where I was currently prospecting. Being vague, I told him the only road in his district that has no litter on it. Probably 99% was beer cans and their removal made it much more pleasant in accessing the area. Doesn't hurt to pick up the little stuff anyway.

 

[WaProspecting]

It really comes down to dumping and illegal logging. I have seen this while hunting/hiking all over in my state and had to report people because of it. Drive half way up a mountain and you have some guy cutting down trees in a POS truck which he has no permit for. I also caught someone last year dumping 3 garbage bags full of trash over one of the gated roads I always hike from. I just went back to one of the trails I hiked last year and there are multiple beds, beer cans, etc and its fully gated. They almost hiked half a mile with a bed to dump it in the woods. Just sad that people will go out and do this. The Forest service is not there to clean up after people. If it starts affecting the drinking water and animal habitat they will shut it down from the public. Some of these roads go for miles and you would never catch people doing this so the only way is to block off the roads.

 

[Bejay]

Why are there gates on public land roads? Various reasons. Most commonly the local USFS or BLM does an in house EA (environmental assessment) that determines vehicle use creates adverse conditions to the geography, fauna, wildlife, etc. One must realize that all roads (public access) that existed prior to FLPMA are not subject to simple closures and require in depth considerations such as public safety to close/gate them. Environmental impacts pertaining to "Endangered Species" is often an overriding issue for closures.....and in my observations is the most common. The USFS and BLM often cite the issue that the vehicles (ATVs) do not stay on the roads and venture off causing surface degradation etc. The criteria for closures and the TMP require agencies to consider all issues relevant to closing a road and many times the agencies fail to dot all their "I" and cross all their "t's. But 99% of the time the general public simply allows such closures to be done.

Bejay

 

[Assembler]

Why are there gates on public land roads? Various reasons. Most commonly the local USFS or BLM does an in house EA (environmental assessment) that determines vehicle use creates adverse conditions to the geography, fauna, wildlife, etc. One must realize that all roads (public access) that existed prior to FLPMA are not subject to simple closures and require in depth considerations such as public safety to close/gate them. Environmental impacts pertaining to "Endangered Species" is often an overriding issue for closures.....and in my observations is the most common. The USFS and BLM often cite the issue that the vehicles (ATVs) do not stay on the roads and venture off causing surface degradation etc. The criteria for closures and the TMP require agencies to consider all issues relevant to closing a road and many times the agencies fail to dot all their "I" and cross all their "t's. But 99% of the time the general public simply allows such closures to be done.

Bejay

Just asking did you ever get the feedback from USFS or BLM that only ATV's etc. that are not part of the private tree farming co's. are the only one's out in the forests dropping all the trash? If so was this one of the reasons for the locked gates?

Have you ever pointed out to both USFS or BLM that there is never any trash left where you prospect / mine? Have you ever pointed out to both USFS or BLM that there is never any "Endangered Species" where you are prospecting / mining?

 

[Goldwasher]

Gold washer knows the area. Yes some *******s dump giant lodes of trash, old boats, and occasionally large numbers of used tires. Some times you see an old refrigerator someone dragged out to use as target practice shot to ****. That's a DAMN shame, we all can agree on that, and people shouldn't do it. However closing off real access to said lands is horse ****. Mineral discovery, 4X4, trail-riding, mountain biking, shooting, hunting, and camping, these and many other uses are legitimate and I don't see how they can get away with blocking vehicle access. Those who litter should be fined. Don't have the manpower to enforce littering laws? Than BLM and Forrest service employees should clean it up. Don't have the manpower or funding to do that? Than they need to make changes in order to make that happen, or come up with something else entirely. Infringing on the freedoms of all because of the abuse of the few should not be an option. And yet they are doing it.

@goldwasher Yes that gate is about half way down the road from SteelPeak shooting area south toward Medowbrook. BLM has gated and put up cable fences at most entrances into those hills, including Medorbrook and the fireroad off Highway 74 at GoodHope Mine. Cable fences off Christmasstree lane unsure if there is a gate yet.

like I said I feel for you. it was happening before I left and worse now.you can not legislate or enforce morality on people who are raised to nor care about anything but, themselves.

I too wish that BLM and FS spent time actually patrolling and citing.

One plus is if you go out and locate you have legal right to access behind those cables and gates.... and on the bright side!! tweakers and trash dumpers surely know how to use cable cutters.

Have you done much exploring out towards Menifee? theres gold out there too. Don't forget that its in the Santa Anas also. There are old forgotten CCC trails and camp areas out there too and Gold and Silver mines.