Gates blocking access on BLM land.

[arthos]

So I keep coming across gates blocking road access while on BLM land. Most recently in an area many people target shoot (lots of old hard rock mines andprospects in the area). Whats up with that? Can they legally block access like this?

This particular gate block the road a long distance from where the road connects to public street. Meaning you have to turn around and drive back the way you came to exit.

 

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[Kray Gelder]

I see the gate is marked no shooting. And the road is basically destroyed. Maybe a gate is the only way to control people's behavior. 4 wheelers driven by drunken fools, plus gunfire, makes it a dangerous place for ordinary sober citizens trying to enjoy time outdoors.

 

[Kray Gelder]

Plus, all of the car and truck commercials promote crazy and dangerous driving off road, even driving in streambeds! I don't get it.

 

[smokeythecat]

Or the road is badly damaged and its cheaper to put up a gate than to get a tow truck.

 

[arthos]

The "road" is a series of connecting dirt bike trails, and fire roads that have been that way for the last 20 years that I can remember. My question is a legal one. Can the BLM by law close off public land access to roads / trails by erecting locked gates where ever they wish as they see fit?

For that matter can they dis allow target shooting on public land? I know there are legal rules regarding shooting over roads, and near structures ect I'm not talking about rules. The sign says no shooting, the locked gate means no vehicles through this point. I know for a fact, its BLM land on both sides of that gate. Do they have the legal authority to do either?

 

[oneguy]

Legal or not.....there's now a gate there! Here in Montana it's just as bad. Used to have a sign on the gate(s) that said "non-motorized use welcome". Now no more welcome signs and the gates aren't apparently good enough so now they "decommission" the gated road by digging holes, falling trees, moving in large boulders in the road, etc. You can't even walk down the road or bike or horseback! Every year a few more miles are taken. Existing "old" roads gated and/or "decommissioned" have young regeneration trees growing in them so when we burn up every summer they can't even get in ground crews half the time to fight the fires. Better get used to it and get out there while you can because they are kicking you outta the woods one little peice at a time. It takes gubermint a second to sign in some sort of law/rule and I doubt Trump and Zinke have the time to turn it around...takes forever to reverse any laws/rules etc.......

 

[Bejay]

43 U.S. Code § 1061 - Inclosure of or assertion of right to public lands without title
US Code
Authorities (CFR)
All inclosures of any public lands in any State or Territory of the United States, heretofore or to be hereafter made, erected, or constructed by any person, party, association, or corporation, to any of which land included within the inclosure the person, party, association, or corporation making or controlling the inclosure had no claim or color of title made or acquired in good faith, or an asserted right thereto by or under claim, made in good faith with a view to entry thereof at the proper land office under the general laws of the United States at the time any such inclosure was or shall be made, are declared to be unlawful, and the maintenance, erection, construction, or control of any such inclosure is forbidden and prohibited; and the assertion of a right to the exclusive use and occupancy of any part of the public lands of the United States in any State or any of the Territories of the United States, without claim, color of title, or asserted right as above specified as to inclosure, is likewise declared unlawful, and prohibited.
(Feb. 25, 1885, ch. 149, § 1, 23 Stat. 321.)

Bejay

 

[rodoconnor]

Government "controlling people's behavior" . Very slippery slope

 

[Bejay]

More specific issue when pertaining to mining as well

LEO SHEEP COMPANY v.UNITED STATES of America (Wyoming Case)

BUFORD v. HOUTZ (Supreme Court)

CAMFIELD v. UNITED STATES (Supreme Court)

Bejay

 

[Jim in Idaho]

I see the gate is marked no shooting. And the road is basically destroyed. Maybe a gate is the only way to control people's behavior. 4 wheelers driven by drunken fools, plus gunfire, makes it a dangerous place for ordinary sober citizens trying to enjoy time outdoors.

LOL..."destroyed" Kray, in Wyoming that would be a "paved" road. In Idaho it's a super highway....LOL Down in the Bruneau/Owyhee country of southern Idaho, the roads are so bad it once took my friend and I 7 hours to drive 9 miles. I'm not joking, either.
Jim

 

[Goldwasher]

So I keep coming across gates blocking road access while on BLM land. Most recently in an area many people target shoot (lots of old hard rock mines andprospects in the area). Whats up with that? Can they legally block access like this?

This particular gate block the road a long distance from where the road connects to public street. Meaning you have to turn around and drive back the way you came to exit.
View attachment 1571535

Back way into Gavalin, Steele peak area? Off of 74?

looks like it. The issue is how many *******s are dumping out there. The shooting area near Steele peak is rediculous and there are active claims with portals peple shoot towards daily. i don't know why anyone would even mess with a claim there.

BLM puts up signs about closing the area.

They are directed to do so when people trash the area like that. Drove up Cajalco Rd. from the 15 people just dump stuff right off of the side of the road because of the gates that are up on the private holdings to keep the dumpers, tweakes and wannabe off roaders out.

I feel for you having to live down there.I was in Mead Valley visiting my brother this week the area is worse every time i go back for a visit. I lived there from '78 to '97

 

[Clay Diggins]

I see the gate is marked no shooting. And the road is basically destroyed. Maybe a gate is the only way to control people's behavior. 4 wheelers driven by drunken fools, plus gunfire, makes it a dangerous place for ordinary sober citizens trying to enjoy time outdoors.

Plus, all of the car and truck commercials promote crazy and dangerous driving off road, even driving in streambeds! I don't get it.

"Streambeds" whether a dry wash or running creek are the primary "highways" in the undeveloped desert. The alternative would be very destructive.

Cultural differences that are based on environment or location lead to some misunderstanding. As long as eastern states have a voting majority in the United States the culture of the public land western states will be denigrated. It's due to a lack of knowledge but your statement wasn't really any different than calling people with a southern accent "hicks".

Sometimes what's right for people in the populated areas could lead to death and destruction for people in the rural areas. When an agency of the government obstructs the historical and legal right to travel on our traditional routes it destroys communities and endangers livelihoods. When you live in an environment where putting a water supply two hours further away or preventing someone from crossing a dry creek before it floods can cause deaths the administrative "right" to make these closures based on public opinion or cultural ideas becomes murder by government.

I grew up in a ranching culture that depended on the right to traverse the open lands freely. Without that right folks back east would have grown up eating backyard raised rabbit and chicken instead of cheap beef and pork. Most of the agricultural products the U.S. feeds itself and the world with wouldn't have been possible without the right to discover good agricultural land and claim it for the discoverer. Without the legal ability to exploit the mineral resources of the public lands this country would still be using other countries coin and buying cars from Italy and Australia. Fuels and chemicals needed for modern life would be out of reach financially.

None of those discovered agricultural lands or mineral wealth had approved access roads.

Sometimes real freedom smells funny and seems a bit rough to those who don't have a culture that promotes real freedom and responsibility. Seeing the open lands as reserved for you to "enjoy time outdoors" is a very modern concept and doesn't mesh with history, law or reality.

Just a different perspective. Something to think about ... if you wish.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

Back way into Gavalin, Steele peak area? Off of 74?

looks like it. The issue is how many *******s are dumping out there. The shooting area near Steele peak is rediculous and there are active claims with portals peple shoot towards daily. i don't know why anyone would even mess with a claim there.

BLM puts up signs about closing the area.

They are directed to do so when people trash the area like that. Drove up Cajalco Rd. from the 15 people just dump stuff right off of the side of the road because of the gates that are up on the private holdings to keep the dumpers, tweakes and wannabe off roaders out.

I feel for you having to live down there.I was in Mead Valley visiting my brother this week the area is worse every time i go back for a visit. I lived there from '78 to '97

The following is just my opinion. My opinion is formed on the back of years of direct experience but it is just an opinion. We all got one.

This is the crux of the governments dilemma - BLM has a mandate to protect the lands they manage. BLM management (a succession of presidents) have squandered limited money and resources on so many programs that don't protect the land that the only way the BLM is left with to protect the land is to close it to public use.

How many of you are old enough to remember a time when BLM and forest employees were unarmed, friendly and helpful? Did you know there were no LEO BLM or Forest employees in the field before 1980?

Since 1980 the creation of an enforcement emphasis rather than a maintenance, patrol and education emphasis has created a culture of closure and exclusion. This can be directly attributed to the simple fact that since 1980 agency LEOs gained precedence in hiring, budget, seniority, and work privileges. They are paid more than other employees with the same experience, rank and time served because they are LEO qualified. As a BLM employee it's a guaranteed raise if you get law enforcement qualified. We all gotta feed our families so it's a no brainer for a BLM employee to get that qualification if they can.

The reason these areas get and stay trashed is partially due to the simple fact that LEO qualified employees are exempt from picking up trash or cleaning in public. With the pre 1980 culture most of a BLM field employee's time was spent keeping their assigned area clean and assisting the visiting public. Friendly presence + an actual mission to maintain the land led to public respect, understanding and cleaner use areas.

As the various budget cuts have come and gone though the last 35 years each round of layoffs to meet the new budget has resulted in non LEO employees being laid off first by policy. When rehiring with an increased budget comes around applicants with a LEO certificate have been hired first by policy.

It was foreseeable and perhaps inevitable that we would end up with a BLM that is populated with gun toting do nothing "cops". The BLM no longer has the qualified personal to actually maintain the land they are charged with protecting. Add to that all the bitter greenies that wasted their college years studying forestry or ecology to get a dead end job in a BLM office and you've got a toxic mix of frustrated bitter wannabe environmentalists and swollen headed cops.

We used to hire our fellow citizens to keep our public places clean and maintained. Now we hire cops to tell us what we can't do in those public places. That trash was left by a disrespectful public. The arrogant attitudes and lack of maintenance of our public lands by the very people we hire to care for those lands is a prime cause of the lack of respect for these lands by the public in my opinion. When the BLM gets back to actually maintaining the land, puts down the guns and the attitude and stops trying to preserve by exclusion rather than maintaining with hands on action we will eventually get back to a respectful public who cooperate in keeping our public lands clean and open.

Until then ...

Heavy Pans

 

[Honest Samuel]

Look out, or you may get shot. I am not sure, but, I guess that the BLM have the right to do what they want. It is not fair.

 

[gldguy1]

The following is just my opinion. My opinion is formed on the back of years of direct experience but it is just an opinion. We all got one.

This is the crux of the governments dilemma - BLM has a mandate to protect the lands they manage. BLM management (a succession of presidents) have squandered limited money and resources on so many programs that don't protect the land that the only way the BLM is left with to protect the land is to close it to public use.

How many of you are old enough to remember a time when BLM and forest employees were unarmed, friendly and helpful? Did you know there were no LEO BLM or Forest employees in the field before 1980?

Since 1980 the creation of an enforcement emphasis rather than a maintenance, patrol and education emphasis has created a culture of closure and exclusion. This can be directly attributed to the simple fact that since 1980 agency LEOs gained precedence in hiring, budget, seniority, and work privileges. They are paid more than other employees with the same experience, rank and time served because they are LEO qualified. As a BLM employee it's a guaranteed raise if you get law enforcement qualified. We all gotta feed our families so it's a no brainer for a BLM employee to get that qualification if they can.

The reason these areas get and stay trashed is partially due to the simple fact that LEO qualified employees are exempt from picking up trash or cleaning in public. With the pre 1980 culture most of a BLM field employee's time was spent keeping their assigned area clean and assisting the visiting public. Friendly presence + an actual mission to maintain the land led to public respect, understanding and cleaner use areas.

As the various budget cuts have come and gone though the last 35 years each round of layoffs to meet the new budget has resulted in non LEO employees being laid off first by policy. When rehiring with an increased budget comes around applicants with a LEO certificate have been hired first by policy.

It was foreseeable and perhaps inevitable that we would end up with a BLM that is populated with gun toting do nothing "cops". The BLM no longer has the qualified personal to actually maintain the land they are charged with protecting. Add to that all the bitter greenies that wasted their college years studying forestry or ecology to get a dead end job in a BLM office and you've got a toxic mix of frustrated bitter wannabe environmentalists and swollen headed cops.

We used to hire our fellow citizens to keep our public places clean and maintained. Now we hire cops to tell us what we can't do in those public places. That trash was left by a disrespectful public. The arrogant attitudes and lack of maintenance of our public lands by the very people we hire to care for those lands is a prime cause of the lack of respect for these lands by the public in my opinion. When the BLM gets back to actually maintaining the land, puts down the guns and the attitude and stops trying to preserve by exclusion rather than maintaining with hands on action we will eventually get back to a respectful public who cooperate in keeping our public lands clean and open.

Until then ...

Heavy Pans

Very well said sir

 

[oneguy]

Ditto gldguy1...

I'm not one to buy into or create conspiracy theories but the only thing that keeps popping up in my head as far as locking up all the public ground is this....get ready (lol). My little "theory".... The Chinese almost seem to be smarter capitalists & money managers than we are anymore. They buy most our bonds and we are very highly in debt to them. Normally if you go to a bank to borrow money the SMART banker will check your credit rating and demand some sort of collateral should you default on your loan? The only thing the US has that could possibly be used as collateral is our Public land/resources? The US dollar is just a piece of paper with nothing tangible that backs it except faith? I know if I were loaning money to the US I'd surely like something more tangible than paper with no backing as collateral?? Maybe gov. is "grooming" us to get used to Public land closure so we aren't completely shocked when ALL the roads are gated and we watch the timber & minerals come flying out of the forest heading the coast to be loaded onto ships headed for China (if we default on our debt)....... My first conspiracy theory......lol

Well I lost half my post? Timed out I guess? Had a rant about FS running around our woods playing cop, writing tickets for things like no firewood permit, more than 150" of cable (skidding firewood), quad not street legal (FS dirt roads), Half of them have quads in back of PU and snowmobiles in winter so they can run down perpetrators and write more tickets, etc.
Pretty sad when Twig Pigs or Pine Pigs are all over the woods...........

 

[Kray Gelder]

Government "controlling people's behavior" . Very slippery slope

I agree. Seeing that photo just reminded me of all the public lands I have seen shredded by selfish, thoughtless owners of off road vehicles. They can do it, so they do. I'm not sure if a gate is the answer. I hate gates on forest service and BLM land. I'm getting too old to walk in for miles, and I enjoy a slow drive to observe the scenery, wildlife, etc. Hard to do on roads now accessible only by serious 4-by vehicles.

 

[Kray Gelder]

LOL..."destroyed" Kray, in Wyoming that would be a "paved" road. In Idaho it's a super highway....LOL Down in the Bruneau/Owyhee country of southern Idaho, the roads are so bad it once took my friend and I 7 hours to drive 9 miles. I'm not joking, either.
Jim

I know Jim. I lived in Idaho. Spring mud season is always a thrill. I have driven across Wyoming 5 times, a couple of times back in the 70's. If a sign says rough road ahead, one had best slow to a near stop. Half of the road may be gone! That photo still shows a road that is not passable by most.

 

[Goldwasher]

Well said and understood Barry. I hate that things are the way they are down there. I know you get around. But I don't know how much time you have spent in the area where I ghrew up and what it is like now.

It is very third world in some places. The illegal dumping is insane.

Ca. more people than all of Canada

Sothern ca. is pretty damned bad.

Fact is in that area gates and fences don't really mean that much. The amount of patrolling necesary for the pathwork of BLM in the urban interface is very problematic.

You know I'm not making excuses for BLM either.

look at the trails everywher it could put a gate company in biz for years to come lol


if you go on google earth and zoom you can see the crap everywhere.

The majority of what you see in this is restaurant trash... mainly frozen shrimp boxes

If you go poking arounfd in those hills you will find trash everywhere public or private land.

These were my hills. I grew up in them and it is disgusting what has happened to them and I just cant put it on BLM this time.

There are just so many people down there who do not care at all about anything, especially for/about those around them.

*******s

 

[Kray Gelder]

"Streambeds" whether a dry wash or running creek are the primary "highways" in the undeveloped desert. The alternative would be very destructive.

Cultural differences that are based on environment or location lead to some misunderstanding. As long as eastern states have a voting majority in the United States the culture of the public land western states will be denigrated. It's due to a lack of knowledge but your statement wasn't really any different than calling people with a southern accent "hicks".

Sometimes what's right for people in the populated areas could lead to death and destruction for people in the rural areas. When an agency of the government obstructs the historical and legal right to travel on our traditional routes it destroys communities and endangers livelihoods. When you live in an environment where putting a water supply two hours further away or preventing someone from crossing a dry creek before it floods can cause deaths the administrative "right" to make these closures based on public opinion or cultural ideas becomes murder by government.

I grew up in a ranching culture that depended on the right to traverse the open lands freely. Without that right folks back east would have grown up eating backyard raised rabbit and chicken instead of cheap beef and pork. Most of the agricultural products the U.S. feeds itself and the world with wouldn't have been possible without the right to discover good agricultural land and claim it for the discoverer. Without the legal ability to exploit the mineral resources of the public lands this country would still be using other countries coin and buying cars from Italy and Australia. Fuels and chemicals needed for modern life would be out of reach financially.

None of those discovered agricultural lands or mineral wealth had approved access roads.

Sometimes real freedom smells funny and seems a bit rough to those who don't have a culture that promotes real freedom and responsibility. Seeing the open lands as reserved for you to "enjoy time outdoors" is a very modern concept and doesn't mesh with history, law or reality.

Just a different perspective. Something to think about ... if you wish.

Heavy Pans

First of all, Clay, I am a Westerner who happens to live in South Carolina. And how you equate what I said with calling someone a hick is beyond me. The western open range mentality denuded much of the public land, especially damage from sheep. The permits obtained for x number of cattle or sheep were and are routinely written for a fraction of the actual number of grazing head out there. I wasn't really thinking of desert dry washes when complaining of people driving their vehicles in them. That's not really destructive behavior. I WAS thinking of those who think it's OK to drive in live mountain streams, where aquatic creatures live and reproduce, where salmon and trout and other fish spawn, and where a trout fisherman like myself might want to enjoy a day fly fishing, not in a jeep trail.

But enjoying the out of doors is for pussies, apparently, and doesn't hold up to the manly past time of ranching and making money.

You assume a lot, of my attitudes of the West, and it's culture. I am not uneducated, and I know a drunken A** in a four wheel drive when I see one. I fished some streams on National Forest lands in my youth, where the local cattle ranchers were running so many head, the stream was FULL of cow crap. That land was not public, it was cattle land.

So let's just say I don't believe freedom means no restraints. People should restrain their own behavior. And real freedom shouldn't smell like tweaker's labs, truck exhaust, beer fumes, and burnt gunpowder. How about the smell of sage in the morning, and the unmechanized peace of nature? Once in a while anyway.