Galleon Santiago

[Chagy]

Estimado Panfilo,

I believe we should star off by making sure we are all talking about the same “Santiago” to avoid more confusion. Are you talking about one of the galleons of Juan Echeverri Marques de Villarubio…..If so…I believe I know why there is so much confusion with the location of the wreck(s)…See Echeverri lost 4 vessels on his way from Cartagena to Habana….One in Honduras and 2 in the coast of Yucatan and one in Conzumel…..I have not been able to find the pages from the AGI that Walter Cardona send me, I’m sure they have to be in a box that is lost in my garage....LOL... If my memory serves me right I want to say that the “Santiago” wrecked in Conzumel but I can be wrong. I’m almost 100% sure that one of the primary sources such as Fernandez Duro mixed up the story and from there on so did everyone else. See F. Duro has it listed as 1660 El navio “Santiago” de la armada de Juan Echeverri, naufrago cerca de la costa de Honduras. Los naufragos estubieron en una isla desierta 53 dias, construyeron una embarcacion y llegaron al continente 276 hombres.

Then Marx has it listed 3 times in the same book, one lost in Honduras in1660 as the “Santiago” a galleon of Juan Echeverri, the survivors reached a small island and stayed there for 53 days and they build a small vessel from the timbers of the wreck. (F. Duro is one of Marx sources for his book) then he has it listed in Mexico in 1647 in Sonda de Campeche near Bahia de Ascencion and again same story as F. Duro that the survivors build a vessel and 276 man reached the mainland. Then he has it listed again in Mexico in 1659 as a galleon of the Marques de Villarubio ( which was Juan Echeverri) on the east side of Conzumel and that the survivors were rescued 2 month later (close to 53 days) and that other 3 vessels wreck lost in the coast of Yucatan.

Many other sources have the event listed as happening in 1658, 1659 and 1660….Echeverri left Cadiz in 1658 and returned in 1660 or 1661 probably that’s why the big confusion of the year of the wreck

Man I wish I could find those 4 pages from the AGI to share them with you> I’m almost sure that I have the same information that Claudio has…

Panfilo out of curiosity the information you have is a map that shows the “Santiago” wreck in Yucatan or do you have a testimony of the Captain or of one of the survivors?
It seem that all the sites claim to have el “Santiago” there is a map in the Library of Congress that shows a 1659 wreck St. Yago in the coast of Honduras.

Bottom line is that if in fact there were 276 survivors I’m sure there has to be a report of an Oidor some were with all the testimonies…maybe in Guatemala or Mexico.

I’ll see what else I can find in the subject….

All the best,

Chagy…….

 

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[Vox veritas]

Estimado Panfilo,

I believe we should star off by making sure we are all talking about the same “Santiago” to avoid more confusion. Are you talking about one of the galleons of Juan Echeverri Marques de Villarubio…..If so…I believe I know why there is so much confusion with the location of the wreck(s)…See Echeverri lost 4 vessels on his way from Cartagena to Habana….One in Honduras and 2 in the coast of Yucatan and one in Conzumel…..I have not been able to find the pages from the AGI that Walter Cardona send me, I’m sure they have to be in a box that is lost in my garage....LOL... If my memory serves me right I want to say that the “Santiago” wrecked in Conzumel but I can be wrong. I’m almost 100% sure that one of the primary sources such as Fernandez Duro mixed up the story and from there on so did everyone else. See F. Duro has it listed as 1660 El navio “Santiago” de la armada de Juan Echeverri, naufrago cerca de la costa de Honduras. Los naufragos estubieron en una isla desierta 53 dias, construyeron una embarcacion y llegaron al continente 276 hombres.

Then Marx has it listed 3 times in the same book, one lost in Honduras in1660 as the “Santiago” a galleon of Juan Echeverri, the survivors reached a small island and stayed there for 53 days and they build a small vessel from the timbers of the wreck. (F. Duro is one of Marx sources for his book) then he has it listed in Mexico in 1647 in Sonda de Campeche near Bahia de Ascencion and again same story as F. Duro that the survivors build a vessel and 276 man reached the mainland. Then he has it listed again in Mexico in 1659 as a galleon of the Marques de Villarubio ( which was Juan Echeverri) on the east side of Conzumel and that the survivors were rescued 2 month later (close to 53 days) and that other 3 vessels wreck lost in the coast of Yucatan.

Many other sources have the event listed as happening in 1658, 1659 and 1660….Echeverri left Cadiz in 1658 and returned in 1660 or 1661 probably that’s why the big confusion of the year of the wreck

Man I wish I could find those 4 pages from the AGI to share them with you> I’m almost sure that I have the same information that Claudio has…

Panfilo out of curiosity the information you have is a map that shows the “Santiago” wreck in Yucatan or do you have a testimony of the Captain or of one of the survivors?
It seem that all the sites claim to have el “Santiago” there is a map in the Library of Congress that shows a 1659 wreck St. Yago in the coast of Honduras.

Bottom line is that if in fact there were 276 survivors I’m sure there has to be a report of an Oidor some were with all the testimonies…maybe in Guatemala or Mexico.

I’ll see what else I can find in the subject….

All the best,

Chagy…….

Chagy, indeed, the same Spaniards of the colonial administration, depending on the place where the news came, they mention the same Santiago like lost in Honduras, Cozumel and in other several places, but in my opinion, read the declaration of the captain of the ship, I think that it beached in Lighthouse Reef. Cheers VV

 

[Panfilo]

Thank you Chagy, you definitely know your “Santiagos”! I came across a map that depicts the location one Santiago galleon wrecked in the Bay of Ascension. Two things popped into my mind, one was that perhaps that wreck was the one I had read Vox Veritas had found thinking it was one of the Cordoba fleet, and then the curiosity set in, which of the Santiagos was this one. I never believed that one of the Cordoba ships made it to land, the news would of made headlines in their time, it was similar in impact as the Titanic had in our grandfathers generation, huge. There would have been several survivors and there is no record of this. Thanks again

 

[Chagy]

Archivo General de la Nación (Mexico) Vol.6 exp. 54, f. 159

Julio 22 de 1659

Cozumel informa al Virrey lo acaecido al navio Santiago, que navegando en ruta de Cartagena a la Habana, naufrago y se perdio en la isla de Cozumel.


Archivo General de la Nación (Mexico)

Junio 5 de 1660

Yucatan. Se comunica al Virrey lo que se escribio al Gobernador de Yucatan, acerca de la artilleria que se habria de sacar del galeon “Santiago” que naufrago en aquellas costas. Vol. 6. exp. 147, fs. 357-358

If you go here and zoom on the map you will be able to see that Bahia Ascencion is just south of isla de Cozumel.

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/ser...95~310044:The-coast-of-Yucatan-from-Campeche-

The vessel could have hit the reef s in between the 2 locations the deck with guns could have ended in Bahia Ascencion and the survivors could have drifted to isla de Cozumel. Specially if the winds were blowing clock wise

 

[Panfilo]

Yes, Chagy, my quotes above are from the AGN in Mexico, same source as yours:
“...el piloto poco perito en la costa de Yucatán lo hizo embarrancar…el Capitán se metió en un bote y recalo en el puerto de Pole y de allí a Cozumel…y salieron tres balandras con bastimentos y gente de socorro al mando del mismo Capitán La Rinaga… se dispuso que de Río Lagartos saliesen canoas cargadas de maíz.”

Vox Veritas, what else do you know of the Rio Lagartos wreck, was it ever recovered at the time?

 

[Vox veritas]

Yes, Chagy, my quotes above are from the AGN in Mexico, same source as yours:
“...el piloto poco perito en la costa de Yucatán lo hizo embarrancar…el Capitán se metió en un bote y recalo en el puerto de Pole y de allí a Cozumel…y salieron tres balandras con bastimentos y gente de socorro al mando del mismo Capitán La Rinaga… se dispuso que de Río Lagartos saliesen canoas cargadas de maíz.”

Vox Veritas, what else do you know of the Rio Lagartos wreck, was it ever recovered at the time?

As I said, I have read Martin Larriaga's declaration, captain of the Santiago (AGI, Mexico, bundle # 38, f. 12). I differ totally about Asension bay. The pilots thought to have been lost in Little Cayman. Later on, Larriaga embarked in a boat and it navigated to the west during 6/7 hours (can have traveled 17/20 miles) and they arrived in a big island, and they planned to be Grand Cayman. In Asension bay there are not between a possible small island and another big to the west 17/20 miles. Another witness affirms that between the small island and the big one they took arriving 8/10 hours (between 21 and 30 miles). for this reason cannot be Asension bay.
Panfilo, I didn't investigate the shipwreck of Rio Lagartos, but I will make it, since I want to publish these two shipwrecks in my next book.

 

[Chagy]

Estimado Panfilo,

Please correct me if I’m wrong or maybe I missed something but I don’t see any mention of a wreck in Rio Lagartos…All it says is that canoes were dispatched from Rio Lagarto with corn…..Also if you look closely at the map I posted on my prior post you will see that in fact Rio Lagartos is a river and provably the town in the mouth of the river got named after the river……Also if you look closely on the map right under Bahia Ascencion it says; “Galleon Santiago lost here” Is this the same map you have? I bet that’s where they found the guns but it’s not the actual place where the hull was lost. The hull most be further East….

 

[Alexandre]

Yes, Chagy, my quotes above are from the AGN in Mexico, same source as yours:

All sumarized, here, online:

http://books.google.pt/books?id=l0L5_lzURQkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[Vox veritas]

Marx makes reference to it here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yG...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAQ

"In 1659, [vessels] San Martín and Santiago were sailing near the southern coasts of Puerto Rico. They were heading for Cuba from Colombia’s ports, with silver and jewels. They never made it to Havana. Sea bandits sank them after a ruthless attack on board." Apparently, this is another vessel with the similar name that also sunk in 1659 in the same general area.
Source: http://www.cubanow.net/pages/loader.php?sec=19&t=2&item=6125

Don.........

Mac, I worked for CARISUB and RAMAL investigating during almost three years shipwrecks in waters of Cuba. The Concepción and the Magdalena, erroneously shipwrecked in 1556 in San Anton Cape (Cuba) they never shipwrecked, because they arrived at the Azores islands and they followed trip to Seville. In several documents that I found, among them. AGI, Contratacion bundle #3281-A and AGI Contratacion bundle #2928, it is demonstrated this way. Once again, the effect "parrot" it continued in the several publications (Fernandez Duro, Marx, Pickford, Stenuit, etc.), but the truth is that many of these informations are not truthful. It is necessary to take care of the primary source.
Cheers VV

 

[Vox veritas]

There is not absolute security that one of the missing galleons in 1605 is in Asension bay. Juan Contreras's 1627 news mentions the possibility, but it is that, a not based possibility. According to this person, the galleon it was in San Martin's bank .
Also, it is well-known that the Spaniards have used the name Santiago in a repetitive way in connection with names of ships, as Rosarios, Concepciones, etc.

 

[Mackaydon]

VV:
Thanks for the clarification.
Don........

 

[Panfilo]

Thank you Chagy, Don, VV and Alexandre for your comments, sorry I took so long to respond. I have been traveling in Belize on an unrelated matter and managed to slip away to the Bay just to get a better picture of the area and speak with some of the fisherman. We all know that Mexico is totally off-limits in so far as permits are concerned but my interest has been only to discard the possibility that one of the Cordoba fleet galleons would be the one or ones lying in those waters. Some cannons have been pulled up and I think it safe to say that they are not from the San Roque, Santo Domingo, Begoña or the San Ambrosio. This possibility was driving me crazy and the idea is not too far fetched, it made much sense if you study the winds and currents, one of these ships without sails could have drifted to this bay.
Chagy, no my map is a Spanish one not the British one you posted which curiously enough has the two bays confused, Espiritu Santo north, Ascension south since it’s the other way around.
Vox Veritas, just out of curiosity where is the San Martin bank (bajo?) as I have several modern and antique maps of this area and there is no mention of this bank anywhere.
Lastly, to put the Santiago subject to rest, I don’t think that the ones we have looked into here sunk in the Bay of Ascension, it makes no sense as it would be too far south of where help was sent out to rescue the survivors, Chagy’s and VV theories make more sense. Thanks all for the feedback and comments

 

[ivan salis]

smart of you to weed out wiether or not they were lost in mexican waters BEFORE going further along with your exploration .

 

[Panfilo]

It's the other way around Ivan, I have been involved and researching the Cordoba fleet for 16 years and have a very good idea where two are located; I filed a claim (denuncia) on one 11 years ago and because there is no legislation in Colombia nothing can be done except wait for this to happen. Vox Veritas had me worried for a while with his Mexican connection but I now believe that if one of them drifted in that direction first thing for sure is that there were no survivors and secondly that it is not in the Bay of Ascension much less in the Swan islands.

 

[ivan salis]

I mean before going any further from this point , since mexican waters are "no go" if the ship went down there --basically its a waste of time and effort if they are in mexican claimed waters.--so best to rule it out if in doubt before procedding farther.

 

[Chagy]

It's the other way around Ivan, I have been involved and researching the Cordoba fleet for 16 years and have a very good idea where two are located; I filed a claim (denuncia) on one 11 years ago and because there is no legislation in Colombia nothing can be done except wait for this to happen. Vox Veritas had me worried for a while with his Mexican connection but I now believe that if one of them drifted in that direction first thing for sure is that there were no survivors and secondly that it is not in the Bay of Ascension much less in the Swan islands.

I spoke to a diver who claims he found two of them in Colombian waters...some other day I will share the story...

 

[Vox veritas]

Panfi,
seemingly had a survivor in the fleet of 1605: the captain Francisco Calderón, in a brief of 1629 affirms to be had lost with all his money when came in one of the galleons of Luis Fernandez de Cordoba's and only he survived in a boat, reaching the island of Cuba.
The original documents don't lie.

 

[Panfilo]

Claudi:
Documents don't lie, people do. Sometimes there are contradictory accounts in contemporary documents, you know this plus not everything that is in an antique document is necessarily true just because you found it in an archive in Sevilla. One has to analyze several independent reports and I had come across this information sometime ago but there are many other documents that range from 1605/06/08/12 that state that there were no survivors aboard the four missing ships. One of which is from the same Governor of Cuba, Pedro de Valdes, which I would assume you have in your documents stating that there were no survivors. In particular a document from 1612 states that there were no survivors so I would put in doubt the veracity of what that document states. You perhaps know that there were several search expeditions after the event, the first by the fragata San Diego of Sebastian Fernandez Pacheco and the San Simon led by Rafael Perez. There was a later expedition that left Cartagena in 1607 and there is no mention of any survivors in any of these documents. The most contradictory fact is that the San Cristobal which survived the storm and ended up in Cartagena finally returned at the end of December 1606 with the Armada de la Guardia of General Jeronimo de Portugal, don't you think they would have mentioned this very critical information that there was a survivor that could finally tell where the galleons sunk? That never happened... because there were no survivors.

 

[Salvor6]

Let me ask you guys a question. A friend of mine found a chart that shows the Santo Domingo wrecked off Memory Rock in the Bahamas. He went there (with a permit) and found artifacts dated to 1605. He claims the Spainards fabricated the story of the 1605 fleet sinking off Seranillas to keep the pirates away. Does this make any sense?

 

[Mackaydon]

Later in that century, the British were salvaging a Spanish galleon at Seranilla. If not one of the 1605 then what would it have been?
Don....