Found a Pair of These Today--Never Seen One Before

[Erik in NJ]

Hi, Went out hunting today with a friend and we both found one of these items. Mine seems to have cleaned up quite nicely, but I have no idea what it is or what it might have been used for. I'm hoping someone here can ID it. Thanks in advance!

Best, Erik

 

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[diggummup]

Hmmm... As one of my Pakistani colleagues used to say, "I am just loud thinking..."

View attachment 725972

View attachment 725973

DCMatt

I like it. That would explain the beveling too.I'm just wondering about how it's connected on the inside. Here is a view from the underside.

 

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[DCMatt]

The underside/inside connection is curious. I can't find pictures of how they are put together.

FYI they are sometimes called "teapot" sash locks.

Sash Locks Page Four

There are a couple more on this page.

DCMatt

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hmmm... As one of my Pakistani colleagues used to say, "I am just loud thinking..."
DCMatt

Pretty compelling loud thinking Matt! I would love to see one of these disassembled as I think it would give us definitive proof. I'm still curious why the measurements we've taken on several different objects are identical. What I thought were mill marks could have been made by metal-on-metal contact this mechanism turned, though it doesn't really explain the marks on the edge of the disk. Pretty interesting stuff. Thanks Matt!

 

[Erik in NJ]

The underside/inside connection is curious. I can't find pictures of how they are put together.

FYI they are sometimes called "teapot" sash locks.

Sash Locks Page Four

There are a couple more on this page.

DCMatt

Perhaps someone good with looking up patents can look up the patent on the underside of the photo diggumup posted: April 27, 1875 and we can see an exploded view of the item.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think the closest thing I've seen from the old threads was that it looks to be part of an "Irish Powder Measure"...was this theory thrown out? Not sure how such a measure worked. Seems that there should be examples on the UK Finds Database....anyone good at look-ups there?

Silver Searcher is familiar with the UKFD. Someone needs to PM him. Here is an Irish Powder Measure found by Seahunter and another found by Paleo10kbc.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/146151-found-woods-what.html

 

[etechdigger]

It looks like the top part (handle) to a toggle switch.

David in TN.

 

[Erik in NJ]

As I sit here pondering this I am more and more convinced that DCMatt has finally IDed this item as the cap/finial from a "Teapot Sash Lock." I would just like to see an exploded view of one from a patent before I put a green check on this thread for Matt.

 

[DCMatt]

As I sit here pondering this I am more and more convinced that DCMatt has finally IDed this item as the cap/finial from a "Teapot Sash Lock." I would just like to see an exploded view of one from a patent before I put a green check on this thread for Matt.

I found the drawings in Google patents for the Apr 27, 1875 sash fastener. It did not show the "button shank" bottom on the finial. I'm not saying my ID is correct but it is a possibility. As much as anything I wanted to move the research away from the powder flask/shot flask idea and keep the thread from falling into "group think". There are enough of these posted to tell us this was a fairly common item. Bits of window/sash locks are pretty common finds at old house sites.

I also searched for roller shade rod ends but came up empty.

DCMatt

 

[kuger]

You are a HUGE asset to this forum Matt.....Thank You

 

[Erik in NJ]

You are a HUGE asset to this forum Matt.....Thank You

I agree 100% with you on this kuger! And you are also a great asset as well BigCy, Cannonballguy, timekiller, Mackaydon, and a few others (cause I know I missed a few names of the great researchers here--my apologies!). Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Matt, would it be possible to post the link to the patent for the sash lock? That shank is enigmatic, no? There must have been a reason for it to have been made flat the way all of them seem to be. Is there a term for this style shank on buttons? I thought I saw it referenced on a thread somewhere.

 

[DCMatt]

This is actually an 1887 patent.



You can't see the bottom of the finial in the drawings.

DCMatt

 

[Erik in NJ]

This one is a bit different. The handle S is attached to L which is the disk that the finial sits on (similar to my item). Interestingly enough I is an elongated hole that would allow the type of shank found on my item through (though the shank on my item is not very wide--not sure how much torque it could provide even if it was attached to a handle). L does seem to have a lower lip like my item, but without being attached to a handle, it would seem that my item would be purely decorative, no? I'm hoping someone can find the other patent for the 1875 sash lock.

 

[Kiros32]

I really wanted to Green Check this, but there are some inconsistencies with patent drawing and the found items. Reference Figure 6:

1. Dome Shaped finial vs. Tear Drop Shaped - the found items have a tear drop shaped finial, the drawing is a dome shape.

2. The spacing between the upper and lower rims seems much greate on the drawing than on the found items.

3. The mystery of the shank has not been solved.

 

[Kiros32]

Another question I would ask is why are these to only pieces of the locks that have been found? I found no other mystery brass pieces from that patent drawing, and I assume that none of the others have.

 

[Erik in NJ]

I think it's finally starting to come together in my mind now thanks to the patent picure that was posted (thanks Matt!). This "object" (with the finial) is the decorative cap used to keep the rotating handle component in place (so it can only rotate along the vertical axis) that locks the sash. The handle component would theoretically consist of a single cast piece with a handle, a round disc with a hole in it that mates with the bevelled edge on this "object," and a "tongue" that would be secured by another stationary locking component which would be secured to the window. The shank of this "object" would be pinned to the stationary bracket that is screwed into the wooden sill--the pin is what keeps this "object" locked in place. The shank would have to protrude past the lowest part of the handle component to allow it to be pinned in place--which it does! The "lathe marks" that I see on the bevelled edge of the lip are actually metal-on-metal wear marks from the mating piece which the handle is attached to. The handle component is essentially the "female" part and this stationary "object" is the "male" part. I suppose this locking mechanism could have been used on a stagecoach, window, or something else and if the locking pin ever fell out this "object" would fall off (as would the rotating handle component--although this part would be much smaller and easier to lose) and that's when it was probably lost--either that or when these teapot sash locks were removed and replaced with something possibly more modern. Looks like most of them stem from ca. 1875 or so which gels with the age of this house. Sound reasonable?

Thank you to DCMatt for putting us in the right direction!

 

[DCMatt]

Have a look at these.





They are not exact matches but you can see the finials are similar in style. I did a Google patent search for "spring hinge" from 1870 - 1920. There are dozens of varieties and many have a ball finial on top and bottom.

DCMatt

 

[Erik in NJ]

Matt,

I'm more inclined to go with that part for the teapot sash lock--did you get a chance to see my write-up? It would be great if one of these patents had an exploded view of the part with the finial on it so that we could verify the existence of the lip and shank. I am convinced that a pin must have gone through the shank to hold it in place. Do you think there's any chance of being able to find that April 27, 1875 patent?

Regards, Erik

 

[Erik in NJ]

I just got a weight on the object so others can compare. Used a professional mini digital scale (Tanita 1479S) and got a weight of 8.8 grams (~ 0.3 oz).

 

[Got_4by4]

I have to agree with DCMatt about the spring hinge finials. If you go back and look at the first set of photos where the item is held between thumb and forefinger, the hole is really small. It is not large enough for a rivet or linkage. More likely threaded on a wire or a spring. Nice research Matt!