Forrest Fenn s treasure

[cw0909]

never ending
3 more to appeal #52,53,54
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17201120/erskine-v-fenn/#entry-52

 

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[MiddenMonster]

never ending
3 more to appeal #52,53,54
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17201120/erskine-v-fenn/#entry-52

All the comedy is in #52:

Dear Justice Professional:

In lieu of Form 6, I affirm that I plan to self-represent on appeal. I understand that an appeal differs from a trial. An appeal is not a new trial and new arguments may not be raised. An appeal resolves appellate issues. Both trial and appeals courts are courts of justice that work together. Though self-representing, I aim for a professional standard in presenting my appeal.

L.O.L.

This guy doesn't know when he is done, with a fork sticking in him. And if it goes to the 9th Circuit, he's about 15 years too late. It used to be known as the most overturned court in the country because it was so liberal that so many of the decisions were reversed at the Supreme Court. Now it's almost an even split, with (I think) 16 judges appointed by Democrats, and 13 appointed by Republicans. He's going to get a random draw of 3 judges to hear his appeal. When he loses that he can ask for an en banc hearing by the whole court. I'm guessing they will decline his en banc request, and the Supreme Court ain't gonna take a look at it, either. But what a feather in one's cap if they can pro se their own case all the way to the Supreme Court--win or lose, and even if they are a doofus.

 

[signal_line]

I haven't been keeping up on all this legal stuff, but the thought occurred to me the finder may be lying about where he found it. Some court might try to force him to reveal the hiding spot.

 

[MiddenMonster]

I haven't been keeping up on all this legal stuff, but the thought occurred to me the finder may be lying about where he found it. Some court might try to force him to reveal the hiding spot.

The only data we have on where he found it is "Wyoming". Both Forrest Fenn and Jack Struef have confirmed this, but didn't want to give away the precise location for fear of people flocking to the site. Given the size of Wyoming there is no logical reason why they would have to lie about which state the treasure was found in. But there have been a few people who have tried the legal angle, and all have failed. The only one who seems to still be in the running is Barbara Andersen, who asked for her suit to be dismissed without prejudice so she could go to New Mexico (where she says the treasure was hidden) to check her location. So she can refile, but everyone else is down for the count, except this Erskine guy is is a glutton for punishment. It would almost be worth it to travel and see him argue his appeal in front of the 9th Circuit. If they allowed popcorn and soda in the courtroom I would definitely go check it out.

 

[cw0909]

seems the BS just never ends
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17201120/erskine-v-fenn/#entry-55
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17231779/andersen-v-fenn/#entry-54

in the matter of Forrest Fenn
name search
https://caselookup.nmcourts.gov/caselookup/

 

[MiddenMonster]

seems the BS just never ends

"Payment of the $505 docketing and filing fees is past due. Failure to correct this deficiency may result in the dismissal of this case for failure to prosecute."

This is just too funny. Would it be against the rules for us to make book and take bets on whether or not he comes up with the $505 before they toss his case? Just off the top of my head I'd day the odds should be about 5:2 against him, which means you would have to bet $5 to have a chance at winning $2 if you bet he doesn't pay it in time.

 

[cw0909]

people suing the finder Jonathan Kenneth Stuef,among others
https://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-mexico/nmdce/1:2021cv00426/460454

 

[MiddenMonster]

"Payment of the $505 docketing and filing fees is past due. Failure to correct this deficiency may result in the dismissal of this case for failure to prosecute."

This is just too funny. Would it be against the rules for us to make book and take bets on whether or not he comes up with the $505 before they toss his case? Just off the top of my head I'd day the odds should be about 5:2 against him, which means you would have to bet $5 to have a chance at winning $2 if you bet he doesn't pay it in time.

Wow! I'm glad I didn't bet against the Erkster! He came up with the dough on March 25, five days before the old flusharooney on his appeal. That means it will actually be heard--provided he doesn't wear shorts, a T-shirt and Crocs to the hearing. And after that, he'll have to come up with whatever the fee is to petition the Supreme Court to take it up. But they can refuse to hear it no matter what the fee be.

Appeal fee

 

[MiddenMonster]

people suing the finder Jonathan Kenneth Stuef,among others
https://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-mexico/nmdce/1:2021cv00426/460454

That's bizarre that we were posting Fenn Court Stuff (heretofore known as FCS) at the same time. I looked for the actual filing for the above case, but I guess it hasn't been published yet. I also did some searching for "Kyle Sandau", and there is definitely a lot of Fenn related stuff on the web about him. He seems to be another person who just knew they solved the puzzle correctly, but were shafted in the end by Fenn. His Fenn videos are gone from or tagged private on YouTube I did find an interesting exchange in the Amazon review section for a book:

The Lost Kivas of San Lazaro

Just two reviews for the book, but the second reviewer seems to know who "Mr. S." is.

 

[cw0909]

i should have looked here 1st. 107 pgs
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nmd.460454/gov.uscourts.nmd.460454.1.0.pdf
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59884461/sandau-v-old/

 

[MiddenMonster]

i should have looked here 1st. 107 pgs
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nmd.460454/gov.uscourts.nmd.460454.1.0.pdf
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59884461/sandau-v-old/

Interesting. I searched Court Listener for the case number, i.e. 21cv426-JHR but nothing came back. Thanks for posting that. The judge's order for an amended complaint is telling. They are filing pro se, but asked the court to appoint counsel for them "due to the truly exceptional nature of this case." That cracks me up. Can you imagine the mess the courts would be in if people had a right to counsel in civil cases? The judge dropped the hammer on them, and pointed out that the "[P]laintiff’s allegations in this case are vague and conclusory", i.e. they are expecting their claims alone to carry the day. So it sounds like these three stooges are doing the same thing Erskine is doing. I don't know how they are connected to each other, but it almost sounds like they commenced to griping to each other on the Internet and decided they were all shafted. They also seem to be of the belief that a longer filing is better than a short filing. Kind of like a student thinking a longer term paper gets them a better grade than a short, succinct paper that hits all the themes of the assignment. I can't wait till they all come together and try to get this in a class action package, with the class being "doofus numbskulls".

 

[Crow]

Interesting. I searched Court Listener for the case number, i.e. 21cv426-JHR but nothing came back. Thanks for posting that. The judge's order for an amended complaint is telling. They are filing pro se, but asked the court to appoint counsel for them "due to the truly exceptional nature of this case." That cracks me up. Can you imagine the mess the courts would be in if people had a right to counsel in civil cases? The judge dropped the hammer on them, and pointed out that the "[P]laintiff’s allegations in this case are vague and conclusory", i.e. they are expecting their claims alone to carry the day. So it sounds like these three stooges are doing the same thing Erskine is doing. I don't know how they are connected to each other, but it almost sounds like they commenced to griping to each other on the Internet and decided they were all shafted. They also seem to be of the belief that a longer filing is better than a short filing. Kind of like a student thinking a longer term paper gets them a better grade than a short, succinct paper that hits all the themes of the assignment. I can't wait till they all come together and try to get this in a class action package, with the class being "doofus numbskulls".

Gidday Middenmonster

That is why if possible with a treasure discovery is say nothing to anyone carrying on like normal slowly converting it into liquid assets. As I say to people careful what you wish for when it comes to treasure evil and greed is never far away. Such as those leaches above who think they are entitled.

Many people dream of treasure but few ever think what happens next? I have seen it absolutely destroy people. Greed and envy gets in the way of good judgement. Family can turn on you. Friends can become bitter enemies.

Finding treasure is quite often not the dream it turns out to be...For many who do it becomes a nightmare.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Gidday Middenmonster

That is why if possible with a treasure discovery is say nothing to anyone carrying on like normal slowly converting it into liquid assets. As I say to people careful what you wish for when it comes to treasure evil and greed is never far away. Such as those leaches above who think they are entitled.

Many people dream of treasure but few ever think what happens next? I have seen it absolutely destroy people. Greed and envy gets in the way of good judgement. Family can turn on you. Friends can become bitter enemies.

Finding treasure is quite often not the dream it turns out to be...For many who do it becomes a nightmare.

Crow

Very candid observation there Crow...people usually only concentrate on the "benefit" alone ...however what should be considered is the "headache/benefit" ratio and how to minimize it...as great treasure finds like this one have the tendency to have a higher headache/benefit ratio , one needs to devise a mitigation strategy from the outset to reduce the ratio...maybe that is why some people prefer to win a comparatively modest figure lottery rather than a windfall..

TT

 

[MiddenMonster]

That is why if possible with a treasure discovery is say nothing to anyone carrying on like normal slowly converting it into liquid assets. As I say to people careful what you wish for when it comes to treasure evil and greed is never far away. Such as those leaches above who think they are entitled.

So true. There has been research showing that most lottery winners aren't any better off a few years after winning than they were before. A lot of them are actually in debt. And when you win a big lawsuit settlement it is frequently paid out over time, because the losing party doesn't have the cash on hand, or the insurance company demands it be paid out that way. In effect, they have the money in an account and the recipient get an interest check payment every month or yearly. That's why in the U.S. you see so many of those commercials offering to buy your lawsuit settlement or annuity for pennies on the dollar--"It's your money. Use it when you want to!" But also remember, as we previously discussed there are problems with converting treasure into the desired asset without raising suspicion with the powers that be. To do it right takes serious, intelligent planning and it may be that most people don't have what it takes to carry out the plan. For something like the Fenn treasure I think I would have just declared it, hired a good accountant, paid the tax and been done with it. Finding a large cache? That would be different, but I hope I am plagues by that kind of trouble one day. And in looking at this post-Fenn legal stuff and what happens to people who win lotteries it isn't pretty. In either case you are likely to be sued by friends, family and people you have never heard of. You'll have friends and relatives you didn't even know you had coming out of the woodwork, just to wet their beaks. Someone you triggered with a microaggression 20 years ago will come after you in the hopes that you will settle out of court for less money just to avoid the hassle. That's why I don't have any problem with Fenn's daughter going after these yahoos to recover the legal fees they forced her to rack up. It really is a Catch-22 here. If you keep quiet to avoid the little leeches, you risk running afoul of the big leeches who can put you in prison. If you do the right thing by the big leeches who can put you in prison you have a target on your back so the little leeches can home in on you. It's like death by a thousand cuts.

 

[MiddenMonster]

Just got back in town and noticed that my recording of "48 Hours" is about the Forrest Fenn treasure, recorded Saturday night. Haven't seen it yet, but am looking forward to checking it out. I wonder how much is going to be generic filler, and how much will deal with Jack Stuef and the legal stuff following the finding.

EDIT: OK, just watched the "48 Hours" and can add the following. The episode was interesting, but other than some post-find stills of the treasure that I had never seen before there wasn't anything really Earth shaking in it. They started with the background of the hunt, recapped the deaths and showed a lot of comments from people who took part in the search over the years. The core of the episode was split between covering the deaths in detail and the people who spent significant time and money searching for the treasure. In the last few minutes they mentioned Jack Struef, but he didn't agree to be interviewed. Most of the time was spent covering the deaths and statements from family, including a grieving father who lost his son and was mad as hell at Fenn for not calling off the hunt. But in covering the deaths it became clear to me that those who died really weren't prepared or equipped to be out there. One guy tried to swim a river with rapids and drowned. Another guy fell off a cliff. Two guys went out looking for the treasure and twice rented snow mobiles that stranded them. The second time they got stranded one of them died. They had about 1.5 gallons of water between them. They guy who lived said they were dehydrated and their mouths were bleeding from eating snow crystals for fluid. One of them froze to death, the other was rescued. This really struck me. How can you go out into the wilderness in the winter and not have matches or a lighter to get a campfire going, not to mention some kind of utensil to melt snow for water? If I was going out into the wilderness I'd bring a few hundred waterproof matches and a lighter, or I wouldn't go at all. Another guy, who didn't die said he learned real quick how much larger a point on a map is when you are actually out there. Duh. One common theme was that all these treasure hunters, dead and living just knew that they had the one and only solve and they were going to find it. Gold fever got em all. Bottom line is that they let their greed guide them instead of common sense and knowing what they would face in the wilderness. Many of these people spent tens of thousands of dollars and went out loaded down with equipment--often times the wrong equipment. The two guys in the group where one froze to death said they left most of their provisions in the truck several miles away and had a few protein bars with them, along with the small amount of water. They didn't realize the vast distances they would have to cover to get to one ridge. Once when I was driving through Colorado I saw a giant mountain on the horizon and decide to clock the distance. It didn't get much bigger for a long time, and by the time I was passing it, 30 miles rolled on the odometer. That's what all these people didn't understand when they went gallivanting around the wilderness. Bottom line, learn from the thousands of people who have died from exposure or misstep over the centuries be freaking prepared if you are going to do something like this. Don't let your greed and ego lead you around by the short hairs. If you can catch this "48 Hours" by streaming it, you should. It's worth watching, but I was left shaking my head at what I heard them saying.

 

[cw0909]

i agree jmo, most searchers thought hey a walk in the park, on the blogs searchers have said
whoa, but made it out, prob because they listened to Forrest after the 1st death, Forrest said
dont go where a 80yr old man cant go,an when you go, go prepared, he had a short list
say where you are going,water,map,gps,food,fire. ya know just the norm things you do,have
for a walk in the wild

 

[MiddenMonster]

i agree jmo, most searchers thought hey a walk in the park, on the blogs searchers have said
whoa, but made it out, prob because they listened to Forrest after the 1st death

This evening I saw an interesting link on Drudge that might explain part of this. A study found that the "average person" believes they could survive 2 weeks in the wilderness--even though most can't start a fire. The article implies starting a fire with flint, but unless you are kidnapped and dropped in Podunk Nowhere, there is no reason to go into the wilderness without matches or a lighter. Most people also can't identify edible plants, or even identify poison ivy. These are people who shouldn't be hunting for treasure in the wilderness unless they have a camera crew and medical team with them. Now granted, this study was commissioned by "Avocado Green Mattress", which I believe is a greeny, sustainable touchy-feely eco mattress company, so that should be factored in to the equation. Here's the article if anyone is interested in the results:

Average person thinks they can survive for 2 weeks in the wilderness — but most can’t start a fire

For the record, I think I could survive at least a week in the wilderness, assuming it wasn't a planned camping trip. But I don't pretend to believe it would be easy, and it definitely wouldn't be fun. But I do know how to start a fire, and tend to have matches nearby anyway. You can survive without food for weeks, but water is essential. So as long as I had something in which to boil water I think I would be alright on that score. If nothing else I could pop one of the hub covers off my truck and boil close to a quart of water at a time.

 

[releventchair]

Just got back in town and noticed that my recording of "48 Hours" is about the Forrest Fenn treasure, recorded Saturday night. Haven't seen it yet, but am looking forward to checking it out. I wonder how much is going to be generic filler, and how much will deal with Jack Stuef and the legal stuff following the finding.

EDIT: OK, just watched the "48 Hours" and can add the following. The episode was interesting, but other than some post-find stills of the treasure that I had never seen before there wasn't anything really Earth shaking in it. They started with the background of the hunt, recapped the deaths and showed a lot of comments from people who took part in the search over the years. The core of the episode was split between covering the deaths in detail and the people who spent significant time and money searching for the treasure. In the last few minutes they mentioned Jack Struef, but he didn't agree to be interviewed. Most of the time was spent covering the deaths and statements from family, including a grieving father who lost his son and was mad as hell at Fenn for not calling off the hunt. But in covering the deaths it became clear to me that those who died really weren't prepared or equipped to be out there. One guy tried to swim a river with rapids and drowned. Another guy fell off a cliff. Two guys went out looking for the treasure and twice rented snow mobiles that stranded them. The second time they got stranded one of them died. They had about 1.5 gallons of water between them. They guy who lived said they were dehydrated and their mouths were bleeding from eating snow crystals for fluid. One of them froze to death, the other was rescued. This really struck me. How can you go out into the wilderness in the winter and not have matches or a lighter to get a campfire going, not to mention some kind of utensil to melt snow for water? If I was going out into the wilderness I'd bring a few hundred waterproof matches and a lighter, or I wouldn't go at all. Another guy, who didn't die said he learned real quick how much larger a point on a map is when you are actually out there. Duh. One common theme was that all these treasure hunters, dead and living just knew that they had the one and only solve and they were going to find it. Gold fever got em all. Bottom line is that they let their greed guide them instead of common sense and knowing what they would face in the wilderness. Many of these people spent tens of thousands of dollars and went out loaded down with equipment--often times the wrong equipment. The two guys in the group where one froze to death said they left most of their provisions in the truck several miles away and had a few protein bars with them, along with the small amount of water. They didn't realize the vast distances they would have to cover to get to one ridge. Once when I was driving through Colorado I saw a giant mountain on the horizon and decide to clock the distance. It didn't get much bigger for a long time, and by the time I was passing it, 30 miles rolled on the odometer. That's what all these people didn't understand when they went gallivanting around the wilderness. Bottom line, learn from the thousands of people who have died from exposure or misstep over the centuries be freaking prepared if you are going to do something like this. Don't let your greed and ego lead you around by the short hairs. If you can catch this "48 Hours" by streaming it, you should. It's worth watching, but I was left shaking my head at what I heard them saying.

I watched that the othernight.

Yes , some folks were out of thier element for sure.
A half day class/course/education would have saved a lot of grief.

Todays society has evolved to where many have a disconnect from the natural world.
Just how it is in living environments evolution.
Someone from a remote area can do fine tossed in a cement and glass jungle.
But the reverse is not as easy without some knowledge of what can bite you figuratively..

 

[cw0909]

so so true & literally bite you
forgot an item on Forrest short list, don't go in the winter.

 

[cactusman]

I must admit that I never followed this treasure or the hunt for it very much, but seeing how the legal aspects are going it certainly proves everything Karl Von Mueller (and others) warned about in their books when it came to publicity in finding a treasure cache.