Floridas Coin Collection

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Pegleg

Answer to your question...

Peg Leg said:
QUESTION:
Has anyone received a Permit to Search and Recover anything new. In fact has ANYONE applied -I bet the answer is NO.
Peg Leg

Apr 27, 2005 11:07 PM

Hunters scour sea for sunken ships

Group thinks treasure lies off Brevard coast

BY JIM WAYMER
FLORIDA TODAY

They slogged through violent waves to reach shore. Their gold coins, and their way home, thrashed against a rocky, violent ocean floor.


Corpses of loved ones and fellow sailors lined the beach. The 1,500 survivors set up camp and salvaged what they could. Pirates came for the rest.

Three centuries later, gold, silver, gems and other rarities fit for a queen's dowry still hide beneath sea and sand, until dreamers and divers such as Rob Westrick and Rex Stocker unearth them.

Modern-day treasure seekers scour the sandy bottom, from Fort Pierce to Sebastian, for the dozen Spanish ships believed to have sunk during a 1715 hurricane. They've found eight to date. Now hopes stretch farther north, as far as Cocoa Beach, where a few suspect the next sunken treasure-trove lies waiting for a lucky diver.

Rex Stocker of Sebastian and Rickie McHolan of Cochran, Ga., hope that's them. They are seeking a permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to search and salvage treasure within about a mile of shore, from Cocoa Beach to Melbourne Beach.

"They believe that there's a wreck out there," said Tami Dabu, a project manager with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Merritt Island office.

The permit would allow their company, Heartland Treasure Quest Inc., to move about 3,721 cubic yards of sand. They would use their hands, and airlift suction and prop-wash to dig for gold, among sea stars, sea biscuits and sand dollars.

They must avoid sea turtles and manatees, according to their permit, and stay at least 100 feet from any reef or federally protected rocky habitat of a rare marine worm, called Sabellarid.



How it works

Heartland is one of about 20 private companies that Florida contracts with to search for treasure in state waters. Half of the salvage contracts involve waters off Indian River or Brevard counties.

The state claims the first 20 percent of whatever is found, typically the most valuable items, which go into state museums.

Treasure hunters pay a $600 fee to get started -- then $1,200 for an artifact contract to excavate, all before landing any treasure.

The companies lure investors with dreams of the queen's treasure. The hunters say the risk sweetens their reward, for those who can afford to come up empty-handed.

"We don't want people that are taking their retirement money," said Rob Westrick, a treasure hunter from Mesa, Ariz. "It's high risk. It's got to be money that you can lose."

For the divers, "It's part of the adventure of the search," Westrick added. "They don't expect to get rich from it. I guess it's just part of the hunt."

He splits his time between his "real" job as a history teacher in Arizona, and his dream job as a treasure hunter for Historical Research and Development, Inc.


The treasure trail

The late Mel Fisher eased the way for modern-day treasure hunters. The legal battles he fought and won in the mid-1980s forced the state to allow the hunters to keep most of what they find.

In 1985, his son Kane salvaged an estimated $400 million in gold and other treasures from the Nuestra Senora de Atocha, a 1600s sunken Spanish galleon about 40 miles off Key West.

For those yet to reap such rewards, an educated faith and love for things authentic drives a sense that the next dive will be the one.

"Most of them just know," Jennifer McKinnon, underwater archeologist with the Florida Division of Historical Resources. "They've been excited by history."

The ex-cops, firefighters, accountants and school teachers who search for riches off east Central Florida share one common bond: they're all history buffs.

"You almost have to be when you're in this business," said Stocker, 61, who plans to search for wreckage off Brevard.

He began treasure hunting four decades ago with his uncle, Kip Wagner, who had formed a group of treasure hunters called the Real Eight Company. The group would inspire others, such as Mel Fisher. Stocker joined his uncle's company right after graduating from high school.

"It's different every day," Stocker said. "I've done this full-time for 40 years."

Thrill of discovery

Treasure hunters describe the moment of discovery as an adrenaline rush like none other. Time stops. They feel as if thrust into the scene of a movie.

Gold coins, crosses, necklaces and rings uncovered on the ocean floor gleam in the Florida sun as brightly as they did three centuries ago.

Hunters cherish stories of their biggest finds. For Stocker, that was a golden dragon he spotted in 1964, just south of Sebastian Inlet. It sold at auction in Philadelphia for $50,000, he said.

Westrick's biggest thrill in four years of treasure hunting came last summer: the first silver coin he found diving off Vero Beach.

The salvaged artifacts make ideal show-and-tell pieces for his history students.

"It's one thing to read about something in a book. It's another thing to pass a cannon ball around the room that's 300 years old," Westrick said.

There are drawbacks, and risk of lost investments.

"It's difficult, and it's expensive," said Taffi Fisher-Abt, museum director and the daughter of Mel Fisher. "It takes a lot of time, but it's worth the effort if someone can handle it, because there is a lot out there."

Fisher-Abt displays locally discovered treasures at a Sebastian museum named after her father.

The state also shows off canons, coins and other artifacts at the McLarty Treasure Museum south of the Sebastian Inlet State Park.

Most of the 1715 Spanish treasure is believed to be within 20 feet of water. It is illegal to take it from the ocean, unless approved by the state. Beach walkers can keep what they find on the beach. Private companies pay yearly fees to own exclusive rights to 80 percent of the treasure found within designated areas offshore.

Hope of the next forgotten ship keeps them going.

"Basically, in the last 20 years, none have been discovered," said McKinnon of the Florida Division of Historical Resources.

Stocker keeps tight-lipped about his planned salvage off Brevard. Treasure hunters have speculated for years about where the other lost 1715 Spanish galleons might be.

"We just don't know," Stocker said.

Westrick believes the company he dives for could soon strike Spanish gold off Vero Beach.

"We're finding enough stuff to where I think we're real close to finding something major," Westrick said.

He knows the queen's dowry lies there, clumped to reefs or buried in sand, until the next big storm or fortunate diver -- maybe him.

"We'll never find it all," he said.
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

and again...

Oct 2006 - INDIAN RIVER, FL - An Orlando company hopes to add a shipwreck to the state's list of treasure sites and bring up booty from the waters off Indian River Shores next summer, if the state will permit its divers to kick up the sand near protected worm-rock reefs. Historical Research & Development Inc., also known as HRD, hopes to get state clearance to look for a yet-undiscovered shipwreck from the 1715 Spanish Plate Fleet and salvage Spanish Colonial coins and other artifacts, Fort Pierce treasure hunter James “Skip“ Huffsmith says.

Huffsmith, a member of HRD's board of directors, filed an application for a water-quality waiver in early September with the state Department of Environmental Protection in Tallahassee. Divers would use their boats' underwater blowers, which channel water from the propellers, to remove sand from any wreck site, but Huffsmith wrote he doesn't expect that to hurt the nearby reefs built by Sabellariid worms, a protected species.

“The bottom (of the exploration site) consists primarily of coarse shell material deposited in the heavy surf zone,“ Huffsmith wrote. This material, he added, tends to drop out of the water, back to the bottom, within 5 to 10 minutes of being kicked up, rather than being suspended for great lengths of time and coating the worm reefs. If sand kicked up by the treasure hunt does approach any worm rock colonies, however, he said, HRD will stop work and contact state officials.

DEP spokeswoman Sarah Williams said Friday her agency is looking over HRD's application to see if it is complete. If so, she said, DEP could grant a waiver after a 60-day period for public comments. If not, the state will ask the company for more information. Huffsmith's application includes a 2005 research plan by project archeologist Robert Westrick, who pointed to new artifacts found in recent years in HRD's exploration area.

“Spanish Colonial coins and related artifacts have been found on the beach and beyond the dune line in the immediate vicinity,“ Westrick wrote. And since 1992, he added, his company has found the same such material scattered in the area off Indian River Shores it leases from the state.

Now HRD leaders want to find the ship they believe may have held the coins in its hold back in the 18th century. If they do, he indicated, it could be a new find among the other six wrecks already identified, documented and salvaged along the Treasure Coast. The company wants to identify several “magnetic anomalies“ its divers detected in 1996 and 2001, Westrick wrote. These could indicate metal parts of a sailing ship, such as cannon or ballast, and thus point to an undiscovered wreck, he added.

All this is entirely possible, said Taffi Fisher-Abt, daughter of the late treasure salvor Mel Fisher and director of Sabastian's Mel Fisher Museum. “This is a large ocean,“ Fisher-Abt said Friday. “Dad once told me there's a shipwreck every 100 yards from Havana, Cuba, to North Carolina. Some are not valuable, some are, some are historical.“ She said HRD's site lies between two sites the Fisher organization has been exploring and salvaging for years off the Riomar and Wabasso Beach areas. The Fishers have leases to 10 wrecks of the 1715 fleet, from Cape Canaveral south to the St. Lucie Nuclear Power Plant. The Fishers and HRD, in fact, are two of nine separate companies seeking to salvage treasure from the Treasure Coast.

Huffsmith said HRD won't even be exploring until early next summer, when the waters offer better visibility, so there is time to work for the state waiver. For much of the year, in fact, offshore visibility is too poor for the casual diver or snorkeler to spot Spanish treasure. So some arm themselves with metal detectors and “poach“ on leased sites, Westrick wrote. “HRD's presence, while conducting legal activity on the site, should deter at least some of this 'illegal' diving,“ he added.
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Permit Application Under Review
Site Name: HISTORICAL RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT (ERP)
FDEP Office: CENTRAL DISTRICT
Florida County: INDIAN RIVER
Permit Type: Water - ERP SGP No Conceptual Approval Permit
Application Number: 249762-001
Applicant Name:
Applicant Company: HISTORICAL RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT
Application Received: MAY-23-2005
Current Processing Status
FDEP is currently reviewing this permit request.
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

That sounds great.
Now lets see if they get the permit.
OR
Are put out off for some reason.
Peg Leg
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

WD 1715,

I wonder if Heartland, the subject of your first note, already has a permit from the State that is somehow grandfathered from Kip Wagner's company, Kip being Stocker's uncle. If so, the legal status quo for that wreck would be that it had already been ruled to have been abandoned, with all the implications of that status, even though they are now talking to the Feds in the form of the US Corps of Engineers.

I will look with interest to see whether the State issues a permit to HRD, if they are an independent newcomer to the 1715 party. It has been over 18 months so far. Again, I wonder if they have some kind of claim that is based on a permit issued prior to the 2000 SeaHunt ruling, which ushered in a whole new era. I don't think that Spain is interested in any water that had already passed under the bridge by then, but I doubt if Florida will issue any permits for projects that started after 2000.

Mariner
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

HRD has had an exploration lease with the state of Florida on their e-110 and e-132 areas continually since 1993. (that shows you how scattered these wrecks are and how difficult it is to pinpoint the primary cultural deposit) We are in the process of another renewal. It seems they (the DEP and Army Corp of Engineers-not the state) make it more and more difficult every year. Just when we think we have done everything they require, they come back with something else. While frustrating, I see nothing standing in our way of getting our permits for 2007.

You may be right Mariner, the area that Heartland Treasure Quest has made their most recent discovery may be an area that has been under an exploration lease for some time already.

-Tom-
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

HELLO GDADDY
DO EXPLORATION LEASES ALLOW YOU TO SALVAGE OR JUST LOOK? I AM NOT QUITE CLEAR ON THE SPECIFICS.
SEAHUNTER
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Tom,

I am sure that the renewal or extension of any lease that pre-dates 2000 is only a matter of time and getting through the bureaucracy. Good luck when it all gets sorted out. Hope 2007 is a very interesting and productive year for you.

Mariner
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Scott, an exploration lease allows you to just look, but there are exceptions. The state certainly doesn't want you to leave historical artifacts you may discover exposed to damage or piracy. So we have recorded, photographed, tagged and logged a few artifacts over the last several years.
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Hi Tom
When do they allow you to go to the next stage. Is it after a certain period of time or after a certain event, such as finding something that will enable you to identify the vessel? On Peglegs New Years post I believe it was Stevemc, who said you don't need a permit to look, but an exploration lease sure sounds like a permit to look. Is there a technical difference?
Scott
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

According to the paperwork I received from the State of Florida and all the email I received THEY (State) demand that you have a SEARCH PERMIT and I am NOT allowed to remove a single item or disturd anything. This includes removing a single rock, piece of wood, mud, silt or sand. You ARE allowed to use a Underwater camera, Magnotomer, Side Scan Sonar or anyother electronic device. BUT YOU MUST KEEP RECORDS of everything you do. You must also provide the CORDS of where you want to search-within reason. This will be turned over to the State when you apply for a recovery permit along with the I.D. of the ship.
Now how in the hell can anyone I.D. this ship when they are so many restrictions-LEGALLY-They CAN'T.
People wonder why I am trying to seek permission from the Kingdom of Spain to recovery SOMETHING-ANYTHING that will help I.D. this wreck.

Pete,
I know you have been there several times on my behalf and I thank you for the effort but I know what is there and I am NOW aware of the dangers involved.
I STILL plan to do a MAG search of the entire area sometime in 2007. Maybe by that time I can secure permission to recovery something.
I will admit that YES I am interested in the Treasue that I believe is there BUT I am also very interested in the History of this wreck and the story it can tell no matter who owned the ship when it went down. I feel that there is so much history involved in this little ship that History will be completed when the ship is recovered and the experts can go through it.
This my friends is not the only project that I am working on.
I will continue to do my best in all of them and to do whatever it takes to complete everyone one of them in a successful manner.
I thank everyone for their response.
This is the first day of 2007
Peg leg
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Hey Don,
I just wanted to let you know that I did a mag survey of the area and it was inconclusive. The biggest hit I got was 5 gamma. A cannon would have registered over 2,000 gamma. The numerous hits you got with a metal detector could be fishing sinkers. That area is very popular with fishermen and like SEAHUNTER'S site, there are probably hundreds of sinkers there.
You said "I know what is there." How do you know what is there if you haven't recovered anything?
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Pete,
This may not make much sense to anyone but me.
The Sonar scan that you did showed me a ton of information. I know that you guys say that there was nothing there but you did not have access to what I had access to.

The Crab Trap scan tells the whole story.

I took this scan to a friend of mine who works for NASA.
He put this scan through a special program. One that disects rock on Mars and can even tell you what is in a single grain of sand. But before that I had the scan put onto a transparent piece of film. I was able to enlarge this to 4' x 4' photo and put this on a screen.
I was able to see the shape of the ship, the bow and the stern, a small cannon and a large cannon or anchor with part of this butried in the mud.
I then had my cousin do a CAD CAM layout and was able to seen what the ship really looked like according to the CAD lines.
There is about 6 feet missing on the scan from the bow.
The CAD was able to tell the the overall shape of this ship. I was able to sell from the drawings that the hatch cover was missing. I was able to see part of the rudder. I was able to see that the ship had a hole in the area near the stern. What caused this one has to assume that it was from the oyster beds that cover this area.
Anyway the CAD drawings gave the size of this ship as being 55' to 60' long, 14' wide.
At this time I was not able to tell you what a Carrvel was (and still not sure).
The CAD drawings also pointed out the small cannon that was laying to the west of the main ship body. Above this and to the East is the object that appears to be an anchor .
This may not be the Professional approch but I AM convinced that this is the only way I can do this project.
I am not trying to convince anyone that my approch is the best but for me I have to do this my way.
Peg Leg
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

;D ;D ;D ;D
Cornelius,
What part is that you do not understand :o
Please point out the CONTRADICTIONS.
Do not be concerned about hurtig me, My skin is thick amd pretty tough.
If it is hard for you to figure out just think how the STATE feels ;D
Peg leg
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Hey Pegleg, here is proof that if you have a VIABLE project and go about it the right way (I wonder how many people from the Historical Society of Martin County were on Tnet badmouthing officials?), that the state of Florida may be willing to help you out, above and beyond the permitting process.

(*separate article note: 800 ships? I think they meant anomalies!)



Area historians seek grant to keep hunt for shipwrecks afloat
By JEREMY ASHTON
[email protected]
January 3, 2007

HUTCHINSON ISLAND — The search for historical treasures off Martin County's coast could soon resume with some financial help from the state.
The Historical Society of Martin County has applied for a $50,000 grant to further survey the area's shipwrecks and restart the search for Quaker pioneer Jonathan Dickinson's ship Reformation. The grant requires the historical society and the Institute for International Maritime Research to contribute a matching $50,000 for the project.

The grant would fund a "search and identify" operation that would more closely inspect the most promising of the almost 800 shipwreck sites found off the southern Martin County coastline in May by the North Carolina-based institute. Divers from the institute would have at least four weeks to search the sites for historically significant shipwrecks, including the Reformation.

Little likely remains of Dickinson's ship, which was burned in 1696 by Ais Indians after wrecking in what is now southern Martin County, said Robin Hicks-Connors, historical society president. But the pieces of the ship that are left would have regional and even national historical significance if they could be found, she said.

"Those artifacts help tell the story and help create a visual for people who might be interested in learning more about the history of the area," Hicks-Connors said.

The historical society could know more about whether the grant will come through when it appears before the Division of Historical Resources in March. The state agency ranked the grant that funded the May expedition as a high priority the year it was approved, Hicks-Connors said.

State Rep. William Snyder, R-Martin County, has written a letter to the agency supporting the grant and plans to push for it during the Legislature's budgeting process.

If found, the Reformation would provide an important connection back to the Treasure Coast's early history, Snyder said.

"Finding that shipwreck puts the finishing touches on the chapter," he said. "We know that boat's out there, and I would just love to see us find it."

JONATHAN DICKINSON'S REFORMATION

Quaker pioneer Jonathan Dickinson was traveling from Jamaica to Philadelphia in 1696 when his ship, the Reformation, was caught in a storm and crashed on a reef off Jupiter Island. Indians captured Dickinson, his family and his crew before eventually taking them up the coast to St. Augustine. Dickinson later wrote a journal that became the earliest written history of the Treasure Coast and provided details about where the Reformation met its end.


Comments (1) »
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

gdaddyflex,
That is all well and good.
BUT I am not interested in having a Historical Society from anywhere involved with my project.
$100,000.00 is just a drop in the bucket in what I am planning to do and that is RAISING the WHOLE SHIP. This is why I am doing a deal with the Kingdom of Spain.
The ship you are talking about IS an ABANDONED SHIP WRECK and does not come under the 2000 Fed Court ruling.
It will not be hard to get a Permit for this ship.
I thank you for the information.
Peg Leg
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

The Kingdom of Spain (Isabella and Ferdinand) gave permission to Columbus for a 4th voyage, so maybe anything is possible! ;D ;D ;D

ps. been reading Christopher Columbus and the Conquest of Paradise by Kirkpatrick Sale, a pretty interesting book
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

Hey Cornelius, let Peg Leg prove us wrong. I hope he does find a galleon that will change history even though I know it's nothing but a coastal schooner carrying cedar for the pencil factory.
 

Re: Florida's Coin Collection

To Don and others with projects or information requests in the state of Florida, here is some good news. Again, more proof that your vote does count, rules can be changed, and procedures improved. Perservere and remain optimistic.

TALLAHASSEE -- Gov. Charlie Crist signed his first executive order today creating an Open Government office, giving tips on clear writing to state agencies and establishing new ethics rules for executive employees.

Crist signed the order in a brief press conference in his office, while family members still in town for Tuesday's inauguration looked on.

"It sets a great standard for the rest of the country," Crist told reporters about the previously announced initiative.

Crist has said he was creating the open government office after newspaper editorial boards from around the state complained about waiting months for records requests to be processed.

The office will be charged with ensuring requests under Florida's public records laws are promptly processed and that state workers understand their open government responsibilities.

The order also creates a "Plain Language Initiative" to make government documents more comprehensible to the public, and includes writing coaching such as using "clear language" and "sentences written in the active voice."
 

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