England in Hot Water over Odyssey

[mariner]

When I enter the United States, Canada or Britain, or any other country I remember traveling to, I am asked to declare whether I am bringing in goods over a certain value. That question is not asked if I am just staying in the airport and transiting from one airline to another, but if leave the transit area, and enter the country, I am asked the question. Similarly, if I arrive by boat and then travel through that country to the airport, I am asked about valuable goods that I am bringing in and then goods that I am taking out. I am very surprised if Odyssey were not required to do so when entering Gibraltar, and then required to meet Gibraltar's regulations and restrictions on exports, which include the following, according to an Internet site that I consulted:

http://fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_gi_profile.html?gtmcc=us#C09

"General Export Restrictions

The following items are not acceptable for carriage to any international destinations unless otherwise indicated. (Additional restrictions may apply depending on destination. Various regulatory clearances in addition to customs clearance may be required for certain commodities, thereby extending the transit time.)

APO/FPO addresses.

C.O.D. shipments.

Human corpses, human organs or body parts, human and animal embryos, or cremated or disinterred human remains.

............................

Money (coins, cash, currency, paper money and negotiable instruments equivalent to cash such as endorsed stocks, bonds and cash letters).

Collectible coins and stamps"

I am sure that the export of the 500,000 coins must have come under this regulation. I wonder if Odyssey got special permission for the export of the coins, or just ignored the regulation. I am not familiar with Gibraltar, but I suspect that the docks are a secured area for customs purposes.

Mariner

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ivan... The value of the coins were listed at the cost of recovery. This has been explained many times, but there are some in Spain that have an agenda. The writer of that article, Santiago Mata, is one of those who continues to write lies and innuendo. He's even a joke among his colleagues.

P.S. No export license was necessary, because the coins were not being exported from any country. They were merely "in transit" from the point of recovery.

What do you call Gibraltar, a floating pontoon? Odyssey can try and make up their own rules, but questions are being asked !!
How did this all happen? And all the truths are coming out !
Most importantly the court is not going to change its ruling, so move on.
Ossy

 

[ivan salis]

they were just "passing thru" gibralter "in transit" --because they were not offically "landed" there --- just like a airlines "thru going passanger" that doesn't leave the secure zone of the airport doesn't have to unload his suitcase at the countries customs station when he lands (unless he plans to stay there )--- the coins were not "offically" landed (they went from the secure customs area (A) the dock to the secure customs area (B) of the airport for transhipment to the USA --thus in effect they were never "in the country" except for passing thru or "in transit purposes")--- sothey were just legally speaking "in transit" or passing thru gibralter --- thus they were not ever meant to stay in gibralter -- they simply were were US bound "cargo" passing thru andsince the coins were not found in gibralters "territorial waters" -- gibralter was not the "country of origin" ( the coins were from a "unknown wreck" found on the "high seas") so no "export license" was needed for them from gibrater -- just "in transit" paperwork for "passing thru".

 

[mariner]

Ivan,

Are you speaking from specific knowledge here, or just giving your own interpretation of Gibraltar's/International laws and customs procedures?

As far as I know, the only cargo that is allowed to transit through a country and regarded as in "transit" is stuff in a container or vehicle that has been sealed by the Customs of the country from which it originated. This could not have been the case when Odyssey brought the coins into Gibraltar, and as I demonstrated, Gibraltar has laws that prohibit the export of money or commemmorative coins. It would be nice if you were allowed to bring stuff into a country and bypass the Customs. People like drug cartels would have a field day. Can you imagine a ship landing in Florida with a cargo of drugs and telling the US Customs that they did not need to examine the cargo, as they were just taking their drugs to Miami airport "in transit", in order to fly them to another country?

Mariner

 

[ivan salis]

I was a merchant seaman for many years working on cargo ships and as such I am very fimilar with cargo containers -- we did bring in containers from other places (say limon, costa rica* listed as containing "fresh fruit" on the cargo manifest to port everglades , florida ) -- in the custom's secured shipping lot area where we docked at --some were for USA delivery however some of them were being transfered off my vessel then over to another "foreign" outbound vessel and loaded upon it without being opened (the custom agents at its "final port" of call -- have the duty of inspecting it upon arrival in their country --ps in the USA only about 3 % of all "incoming" for USA delivery cargo containers are visually and phyiscally checked by the way due to manpower and cost issues) --customs here in the us for "in transit" containers just checks the paperwork for the "in transit" shipment and makes sure that the custom seals on the container are not broken upon arrival --thus insuring that nothing has been removed from the cargo container while it was in route or "passing thru"-- to get "left behind"--- the dope smugglers were quite clever however --they built 6 inch high "false floors" into the actual containers used to ship the legit fruit shipments ( and low bid the contract to insure their "containers" were used in costa rico -- the legit fruit company in costa rico packed it with fruit and shipped them --- upon arriving in the USA and after clearing customs the dopemen had the truck drivers take the containers to a wharehouse and then unloaded the fruit / reloading the fruit into another trailer for delivery to the legit fruit dealer is was meant for --the container with the 6 inch floor of "pure" coke was stripped open and the drugs gotten --- --the ring was busted because one day a dope dog on a route "ship check" sniffed at a container --it had a heat "crack" in the weld where the "fake" floor was installed --the dog smelled the dope --the DEA boys then sat back and watched and tailed the trailer --busting the network.

 

[mariner]

customs here in the us for "in transit" containers just checks the paperwork for the "in transit" shipment and makes sure that the custom seals on the container are not broken upon arrival

Ivan,

This is my point. Customs will let materials sealed by another country's Customs to transit through their country, but these coins did not arrive in a sealed container. They were in the hold of a private ship, being imported into Gib for subsequent export to the USA. Gibraltar customs would have had a responsibility to see that Odyssey were not bringing something illegal into the country, and, given their own regulations, I don't see how Gib. Customs could have authorized the export of these coins, unless they decided to do so for reasons of their own. I think that Spain's allegation that Gibraltar/Britain aided and abetted Odyssey seem to be justified.

Mariner

 

[ivan salis]

I can only say what I saw occuring with the cargo containers on the cargo vessels that I worked upon . * if what I saw happen many ,many times over my 27 year long sea going stint is not "valid" experance in your veiw , then I will not waste my time trying to "prove things" to you since you "doubt" me -- clearly your thinking me a lair , a fool or a person not knowing of what I speak . --

- its been my experiance that people either accept what you have to say in general or they think you know don't squat about anything --

--- I do not have to "prove" myself upon others demand just because others "doubt" me or what I say -- having to "prove" yourself constantly to another person is a form of "mental slavery" -- the college professers "demand" of "their" students --to "prove" themselves "worthy" to the professors satisfaction * ---this isn't college and I 'm not your "student" thus I do not need or crave your "seal of approval" for my thoughts to be valid -- since god didn't die and leave you "in charge" of "proving everything about who's right or wrong." (to the best of my knowledge at least.)

now with that said --- the original custom seals (as such) would have placed upon the shipment of coins before it left the vessel in gibralter * bound for the airport "secure zone"---since it was going
in a "sealed" container from "secure zone A" the ship at the docks --to "secure zone B" a plane at the airport---- solely for "transhipment" purposes with nothing to be "landed" or left behind of the shipment in gibralter . --- for shipment reasons the numbered custom seals are placed upon the containers by the "shippers" who fill out the "shipping paperwork" known as a "cargo manifest" which states that the containers contain such and such under "oath"-- there is a person who is held "accountible" for putting the correct facts down on said papers ---(the vessels I worked upon had "spare seals" so if one somehow was "damaged" in transit (god forbid) a new one was affixed and it was duly recorded that this was done *--and if that occured it often mean a "full" scale drug check by customs upon arrival (a real pain in the butt they were too)--- I have "first hand knowledge of this" because*** I as a crewmember for 27 years, I was a part of the "ships fire crew "--- if a fire was to break out in a container *---one of the first orders of bussiness is to find out what said container had "listed" as contents for fire fighting reasons --( certain chemicals can not be exposed to water for exsample since they can blow up if they are) also its important to understand what other nearby containers might have in them as well -- say explosives - since you do not want to run your fire team up to put out the fire in container #1 and the other "explodes" killing everyone (so you cool the explosive container with fire team "A" to prevent it from exploding and go after the other containerwith fire team B )--so its very very importamt that the cargo manifest be "correct"-- however some folks who are not "honest" lie about the contents --since hazardous items are charged "higher" shipping rates -(dishonest shippers --charge the companys who products they "move" the higher shipping cost for hazardous goods -- then lie to the shipping vessel companys about whats being shipped in the containers paying a much lower rate and pocketing the large $$$ differance)- once in great while customs will "random" spot check a container fully a to z and find out about these liars.

 

[pegleglooker]

bump

 

[jeff k]

Ivan... I wouldn't waste your time with these guys. They're all anti-Odyssey for one reason or another. You don't have to prove anything. Let them prove otherwise. I've been called a liar on another thread, and worse on the Yahoo board. It's unfortunate that some people always think the worse of others.

 

[mariner]

Jeff,

The problem is that you often say things as if they were facts, when they are just your opinions, always slanted in Odyssey's favor, no matter what the facts or circumstances.

I think I asked you earlier to explain your assertion about these goods being "in transit", and you ignored the request.

I used to be an Odyssey fan, until they pulled the Black Swan caper, and have since expressed approval for the way they changed their approach, in the case of the Victory, for example. I just think that they did everybody in this business, including themselves, a big disservice in the way they handled the Black Swan "smash and grab."

Ivan has a well deserved reputation for good research and thinking for himself. I don't think he needs any advice from you.

Mariner

 

[wreckdiver1715]

The airport on Gibraltar is basically the border with Spain (so close, yet so far). I took these pictures on my last visit back in 03, and there was no passenger terminal or even a passport control point. The folks that came out to park our plane were very friendly, and even called a cab for us to take us to the hotel. The Airport is nothing like what most folks are used to at your standard International Airport; I would compare it more to a small FBO you may find in any small town in America.
You can see that the only road that connects Spain and Gibraltar runs across the only runway at the airport, and you can see folks walking freely between the two countries. There are guards on either side, and they basically hold traffic to allow the two or three scheduled flights a day to take off and land. The next day I drove a rent car over into Spain, and there was no passport checkpoint there either, and the only proof I have that I visited these two countries are a bunch of pictures and not one stamp in my passport.
In the first picture, directly to the left and outside of the shot is the Port of Gibraltar (second picture), and it’s about a three minute drive from dockside to the airport.
So, while I am not expert in the customs laws of any nation, I can say that through my travel experiences in Gibraltar that what my friend Ivan states is entirely plausible, and most likely the way that it is. Remember, this was big news, and the media was all over this story as the containers of treasure were being loaded aboard the cargo planes.
While I have no doubt that some would like to make it appear as though Odyssey was sneaking illegal treasure from illegally salvaged Spanish ships out of Spanish waters, and getting it all aboard chartered cargo planes at some isolated part of the airport where customs agents were not aware of what was going on. Is that about right!
However, the truth of the matter is that Odyssey has done everything above board and by the book from day one. You may not agree with some of their decisions along the way, and that’s fine. But in my humble opinion they did the only thing they could have done considering how Spain had treated them over the Sussex issue in the Months and Years leading up to this.

 

[ivan salis]

the "load" was generated aboard the recovery ship which under the flag it flies makes it a part of the "nation" whos flag it flies --- so its like a embassy -- part of the country of whos flag it flies to to speak -- the airport might as well be a differant port on the other side of the island as far as "transshipment of goods" goes. --- its being moved from shipper A (the ship) to Shipper B (the plane) as a "intact" load --with none of it to be left behind or "landed" in gibralter -- odysseys ship was the "originator" of the load "aboard ship" thus under the "country of who flag they flew" --- now if the cargo was "landed" ashore and the cargo manifest made up then --gibralter would be the country of origin.

when docked the vessel still remains part of the country whos flag it flies --but "access" to the vessel is demanded as part of "allowing" it to dock in the "foreign country" its at. --- thats why odyssey made such a big deal about being "boarded" at sea --spain "forcibly" made their way upon the the vessel despite being told "no" we do not want you aboard and do not give you pernission to board our vessel .

 

[ivan salis]

legally speaking --since the flag they flew was panama's yes indeed * --if the "load" was generated "onboard" the vessel by it being a panama registered ship* ---it offically went from panama (the vessel) passing thru gibralter (and leaving by plane) to the usa .--- the ship to plane via "ground transfer" part is just a differant "mode" of transportation as it passed thru on its way "thru" gibralter. --it was "in transit" between panama and the usa --going thru gibralter in the process. --it is the duty of US customs to check the load upon arrival in the USA as the country of final distanation. seems you get it now.

 

[mariner]

Ivan,

Well debated!! And please don't think that I was questioning your honesty at any point. I have too much respect for you to do that. Debate and spirited disagreement doesn't imply disrespect.

I am still not certain that a load can be moved "in transit" without being in a container or truck sealed by an authorized party, but I had overlooked the Panamanian aspect and that the fact that Panama has almost no restrictions on exports. I guess that the Gibraltar Customs, who could not help but know about the shipment, decided, in the great British Tradition of Lord Nelson, to turn a blind eye to the situation. As Nelson was preparing the engage the enemy at the Battle of Trafalgar, a signal was put up on the Flagship telling Nelson to disengage. When this was pointed out to Nelson, he put a telescope to his blind eye, and said "I see no ships!", and carried on with the attack. The rest is history.

Mariner

PS: Thanks for the pictures, WD 1715. Worth a thousand words.

 

[4theMoney]

Very interesting posts. Thanks. I am sure Spain will challenge and test every point of law.

 

[ivan salis]

count on it --too much $$$ at stake not to try and make a "grab move" , spain would be fools not to try for it in my veiw.--being the ship of origin was most likely the mercedes.

 

[truckinbutch]

I agree with Ivan . No International Law was broken .
I have picked up sealed non container loads at the docks in 'Filthadelphia' and ground transported them to Houston for reshipment with no Customs hassles or paperwork many times .

 

[mariner]

truckinbutch,

Thanks for that, but I don't think the barrels of coins were in a sealed container. Did you ever pick up a load of stuff not in a sealed container or truck and transport that across the country without it having to be examined by Customs? And who has the right to seal a container? is it the captain of any ship? I would be surprised if that was the case.

Mariner

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I will be very surprised if Gibraltar Import and export laws are that slack ! I noticed they listed clay on the import, export papers
This should have been quarantined? If Odyssey would have done the same in Australia they would have locked them up!
Questions should have been asked by the authorities, Why are they not being shipped back on your own ship? why do you what to stay in port for two and five months? but your goods are being flown out urgently !!
Even the monkeys knew what was happening.
Ossy

 

[ivan salis]

the many plastic buckets the coins were shipped were in effect "a sealed or "intact" load" --for transportation reasons --so long as none of them were tampered with ----and no coins were "removed" until they "arrived at their final destaination--- the USA.