Ely's description of where Ruth's body was found - an experiment...

[Matthew Roberts]

cactusjumper,

In your post you wrote:

"Most would agree, I believe, that there was little chance that Ruth hiked from his camp, to where it's claimed his body and head were discovered. I believe Ruth was killed in the vicinity of the saddle where the Del Monte Claim is located between West Boulder and Little Boulder Canyons. The reasoning for the subterfuge that followed is not clear, but it may have something to do with Tex moving the remains and his motivation for doing that."

"It, likely, would have been fairly easy for Ruth to hike to that location before being killed or dying from natural causes."


Is the red circle on the map below the area of the saddle you refer to with the DelMonte mine? I'm just trying to place where you are talking about.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

Matthew - thank you very much for indulging me with topos and markings! I sincerely appreciate the effort. I'm at work right now, but will try either tonight or one of the following nights to include my interpretations.

One thing that you address is the difficulty if not even impossibility of following Ely's directions from pages 8-9 regarding Ruth's remains location. He initially states that the "mile long ridge covered with dense brush" which starts about 2 miles NW of Weaver's Needle and continues running NW is THE brushy ridge where the final scenes of life of Adolph Ruth were enacted.

To me, later when he mentions specifics about finding the skull and skeleton on the "brushy ridge" overlooking West Boulder Canyon, the only thing I can assume is that he's describing the same "brushy ridge" that he earlier mentioned. So to me, based on the description in his book, he has to be talking about a location right along the Pinal/Maricopa county borders somewhere W, SW or NW just a little bit from where East Boulder and West Boulder merge - somewhere NW of Aylor's Caballo camp and SE of Yellow Peak.

He never introduces a "brushy ridge" anywhere near his camp at Willow Spring or the Del Monte claim - only the one that runs NW from the intersection of the canyons.

As you stated, trying to follow any of Ely's directions in this respect seems to be difficult at best and probably impossible.

Paul

Agreed, that's the way I read it also. But it can be read either way. He's either talking about the same brushy ridge, or he's talking about something that actually makes a lot more sense, that it was on a ridge overlooking WBC much closer to Willow Springs. That's really the crux of the matter, IMO. Best regards, Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

In your post you wrote:

"Most would agree, I believe, that there was little chance that Ruth hiked from his camp, to where it's claimed his body and head were discovered. I believe Ruth was killed in the vicinity of the saddle where the Del Monte Claim is located between West Boulder and Little Boulder Canyons. The reasoning for the subterfuge that followed is not clear, but it may have something to do with Tex moving the remains and his motivation for doing that."

"It, likely, would have been fairly easy for Ruth to hike to that location before being killed or dying from natural causes."


Is the red circle on the map below the area of the saddle you refer to with the DelMonte mine? I'm just trying to place where you are talking about.

Thanks,
Matthew

View attachment 1560618

Matthew,

The area I am talking about is due east of Tim's Saddle. It is the saddle between West Boulder and Little Boulder Canyon. There is an old trail in that area, still visible closer to Little Boulder:



This is part of the old military trail that is clearly shown on Dr. Glover's maps in his first book.

To be clear, I'm not saying that my theory is correct, only that it surely seems more plausible than Ruth hiking from his camp at Willow Spring north through Boulder Basin, over Bull Pass and down into Needle Canyon.....or any combination of paths that would take him there. Not to say impossible, just unlikely.

All of the explanations of what happened to Ruth seem logical, until you lame up one leg and make that trip. Even with two good legs and twenty or thirty years younger, it's quite a hike. Not to mention the heat. Ruth must have been a man among men.

There are so many clues and stories that place Ruth somewhere around that saddle that it's difficult to dismiss them all.

Good posts,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,

The area I am talking about is due east of Tim's Saddle. It is the saddle between West Boulder and Little Boulder Canyon. There is an old trail in that area, still visible closer to Little Boulder:



This is part of the old military trail that is clearly shown on Dr. Glover's maps in his first book.

To be clear, I'm not saying that my theory is correct, only that it surely seems more plausible than Ruth hiking from his camp at Willow Spring north through Boulder Basin, over Bull Pass and down into Needle Canyon.....or any combination of paths that would take him there. Not to say impossible, just unlikely.

All of the explanations of what happened to Ruth seem logical, until you lame up one leg and make that trip. Even with two good legs and twenty or thirty years younger, it's quite a hike. Not to mention the heat. Ruth must have been a man among men.

There are so many clues and stories that place Ruth somewhere around that saddle that it's difficult to dismiss them all.

Good posts,

Joe

"Ruth must have been a man among men"

joe...people back then were in general alot tougher than we are now...they didn't grow up with the luxuries we have now...i guess what i'm saying is our generation is a bunch of wimps compared to people 100 years ago

 

[Cubfan64]

IMO , is clear Sims Ely was talking about the Black Top Mesa ( a mile lond ridge running NW ) , which between other canyons , overlooks at its NW end the West Boulder Canyon . The author's statement how that brushy ridge overlooks the West Boulder Canyon , don't put the ridge beside /next to that specific canyon .
Also , is clear how the author was not aware of the relief and topography of the middle-west Superstitions Mt.

Marius, thanks for your input as well. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that Black Top Mesa is the mile long brushy ridge that starts at the intersection of West, East and Needle canyons running NW from that point and losing itself eventually in a right angle into Le Barge Canyon? I'm not clear on how you made that interpretation based on the description in Ely's book that I quoted? It just doesn't fit the description at all IMO.

You may want to interpret it that way and just say that Ely didn't know the topography, but what I'm trying to express here is that if you take Ely's words literally, it simply doesn't seem to fit. I find it very hard to believe that Sims Ely who spent a decent amount of time out in the mountains wasn't aware of the topography - on the other hand, as folks here have stated the editor of Ely's book likely took many liberties which would explain the many mistakes.

By the way, while I don't agree with your interpretation of Ely's words, if you assume the writer didn't know anything about the topography it's a decent theory since the Black Top Mesa area comes much closer to where Ruth's skull and body were actually found.

 

[Cubfan64]

Matthew,

The area I am talking about is due east of Tim's Saddle. It is the saddle between West Boulder and Little Boulder Canyon. There is an old trail in that area, still visible closer to Little Boulder:



This is part of the old military trail that is clearly shown on Dr. Glover's maps in his first book.

To be clear, I'm not saying that my theory is correct, only that it surely seems more plausible than Ruth hiking from his camp at Willow Spring north through Boulder Basin, over Bull Pass and down into Needle Canyon.....or any combination of paths that would take him there. Not to say impossible, just unlikely.

All of the explanations of what happened to Ruth seem logical, until you lame up one leg and make that trip. Even with two good legs and twenty or thirty years younger, it's quite a hike. Not to mention the heat. Ruth must have been a man among men.

There are so many clues and stories that place Ruth somewhere around that saddle that it's difficult to dismiss them all.

Good posts,

Joe

Joe,

Other than the view of Weaver's Needle you've posted around the location of the Del Monte claim and Gene Reynolds telling you that's what A Ruth was looking for, what other clues and stories tie Ruth to that location?

I'm finding myself more and more interested in Jim's post where he showed a copy of the map that shows up in Ely's book which seems as though it may be drawn to match Ely's words from the text. The map from the book actually places Ruth's camp just about where you indicate the Del Monte claim is and nowhere near where Willow Springs in West Boulder Canyon is located.

I'm finding it more and more difficult to rely on much of what is in Ely's book the more I dig through it.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Joe; It's my map. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe; It's my map. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg,

Hope all is well with you. It's a good map.

As I stated: "I may be wrong, but I believe that map is part of a Tom Kollenborn map.....originally." Thank you for clearing that up, as I am wrong more and more these days. I have always preferred to be corrected.

Regardless, this is an interesting topic.

Thanks again,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

cactusjumper,

Yes, now I know where you are talking about, the saddle east of Tim's saddle and on the east side of West Boulder Canyon.
That is indeed a hot area and possibly what Ely meant by Ruth's skull being found,... "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor," is that the skull was found on that east side of West Boulder about 100 feet up from the creek and below that saddle.

I just can't square Ely's location in his book with the testimony of Brownie Holmes, Tex Barkley and Jeff Adams all who said they found Ruth's skull and remains on the Northeast end of Black Top Mountain.
This was verified in the Sheriff's investigation because when Sheriff MacFadden went out to the scene himself, he found pieces of Ruth that had been missed by Holmes, Barkley and Adams.

Unless we all are to believe that EVERYONE was involved in a conspiracy and if that's the case we might as well all turn our guns in to the bartender and go home.

This is a great thread posted by Cubfan !

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

Yes, now I know where you are talking about, the saddle east of Tim's saddle and on the east side of West Boulder Canyon.
That is indeed a hot area and possibly what Ely meant by Ruth's skull being found,... "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor," is that the skull was found on that east side of West Boulder about 100 feet up from the creek and below that saddle.

I just can't square Ely's location in his book with the testimony of Brownie Holmes, Tex Barkley and Jeff Adams all who said they found Ruth's skull and remains on the Northeast end of Black Top Mountain.
This was verified in the Sheriff's investigation because when Sheriff MacFadden went out to the scene himself, he found pieces of Ruth that had been missed by Holmes, Barkley and Adams.

Unless we all are to believe that EVERYONE was involved in a conspiracy and if that's the case we might as well all turn our guns in to the bartender and go home.

This is a great thread posted by Cubfan !

Matthew

Matthew,

What you say makes perfect sense, unless Brownie and Bill found or knew where Ruth's remains were much earlier than the publicized finding by.........Brownie Holmes. If you follow that scenario, what appears to be a cover up makes much more sense. I have always believed that someone was being protected by a powerful presence of the time. The fact that that same person's family member was being taken advantage of by Ruth's son, created something of a vendetta against the Ruth family.

On the other hand, the Ruth's were interested in magnesite which Adolph mentions in an earlier letter back home from New Mexico. This triangle shaped brush formation is found just over the saddle in Little Boulder Canyon:



In the middle of that mess, is this outcropping:



It's another interesting coincidence.

As always, more questions than answers.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[|KRATOS|]

Wasn't Adolf Ruth killed on Peter's Mesa? His body was transported by Tex Barkley, so why does the relocation on the body mean so much? Just curious.

 

[azdave35]

Wasn't Adolf Ruth killed on Peter's Mesa? His body was transported by Tex Barkley, so why does the relocation on the body mean so much? Just curious.

thats the rumor....i cant remember who started it

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Wasn't Adolf Ruth killed on Peter's Mesa? His body was transported by Tex Barkley, so why does the relocation on the body mean so much? Just curious.

Hello Kratos, and welcome to the forums!! I’m a “new guy” myself, so it seems appropriate that I be one of the people that welcome you!
I wouldn’t put too much stock in Adolf Ruth going to Peters Mesa. A great story, replete with visions of Tex galloping over the countryside with Ruth’s bones clonking about in his gunny sack!


I was brought into this particular story about 25 years ago, due to my familiarity with the person involved, and my employment…not a big priority for me back then…but now I’m entirely focused on it. Some would say the genesis of the whole Peters Mesa story started with this guy. And thus my involvement… His fingerprints are all over it:

View attachment 1560902




True, but a much more telling story is there. Dang that Cyanoacrylate gets everywhere! Look!:

View attachment 1560903




That’s not all there is…not by a longshot. No sir.


A man that knows once said there are dark currents swirling under the surface in the LDM community. I would also agree there are some toothy fish in there! Best of luck and once again: Welcome To These Here Forums! Best Regards, Jim

 

[markmar]

Marius, thanks for your input as well. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that Black Top Mesa is the mile long brushy ridge that starts at the intersection of West, East and Needle canyons running NW from that point and losing itself eventually in a right angle into Le Barge Canyon? I'm not clear on how you made that interpretation based on the description in Ely's book that I quoted? It just doesn't fit the description at all IMO.

You may want to interpret it that way and just say that Ely didn't know the topography, but what I'm trying to express here is that if you take Ely's words literally, it simply doesn't seem to fit. I find it very hard to believe that Sims Ely who spent a decent amount of time out in the mountains wasn't aware of the topography - on the other hand, as folks here have stated the editor of Ely's book likely took many liberties which would explain the many mistakes.

By the way, while I don't agree with your interpretation of Ely's words, if you assume the writer didn't know anything about the topography it's a decent theory since the Black Top Mesa area comes much closer to where Ruth's skull and body were actually found.

Paul , the author never wrote how the brushy ridge starts at the junction of those three specific canyons . He wrote how there " is " a ridge which runs NW .
Don't forget Sims started the description from the Weavers Needle and not from that canyons junction , so he " saw " that ridge from the south in a S-N view from WN .
The fact that the ridge , in the author imagination or confusion , joins itself with LaBarge Canyon after a right bent , only from this description alone , put the brushy ridge at the right ( east ) of East Boulder Canyon . So , the only place which the brushy ridge could overlooks the WBC , would be at its NW end , which would be closer to the junction of those specific three canyons that were mentioned by the author .
I don't know why Sims was " stucked " with the WBC , maybe because he wanted to connects in some way the Ruth's camp canyon with the brushy ridge .
IMO , the author didn't give a detailed description of the place where the remains of Adolph Ruth were found , leaving a large room for different interpretations .
The literally interpretation of Sims Ely's description , is how the Ruth's skull and body were found beside a brushy ridge which runs NW from WN and overlooks WBC .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Paul , the author never wrote how the brushy ridge starts at the junction of those three specific canyons . He wrote how there " is " a ridge which runs NW .
Don't forget Sims started the description from the Weavers Needle and not from that canyons junction , so he " saw " that ridge from the south in a S-N view from WN .
The fact that the ridge , in the author imagination or confusion , joins itself with LaBarge Canyon after a right bent , only from this description alone , put the brushy ridge at the right ( east ) of East Boulder Canyon . So , the only place which the brushy ridge could overlooks the WBC , would be at its NW end , which would be closer to the junction of those specific three canyons that were mentioned by the author .
I don't know why Sims was " stucked " with the WBC , maybe because he wanted to connects in some way the Ruth's camp canyon with the brushy ridge .
IMO , the author didn't give a detailed description of the place where the remains of Adolph Ruth were found , leaving a large room for different interpretations .
The literally interpretation of Sims Ely's description , is how the Ruth's skull and body were found beside a brushy ridge which runs NW from WN and overlooks WBC .

Hi Marius, hope all is well in your neck of the woods! Paul might be busy with a snow-shovel right now (hope you made it through that NorEaster without too much damage, Paul!) The specific quote by the author is:

"Weaver's Needle stands amid three canyons - namely, West Boulder on the west, East Boulder in the middle, and Needle Canyon on the east. The three converge some two miles northwest of the peak, AND AT THAT POINT there is a mile-long ridge covered with dense brush. THIS RIDGE runs northwestward and finally loses itself in a right-angle intersection with La Barge Canyon, which itself flows northwest to its junction with the Salt River." (all emphasis mine)

To me, it sounds like he's focused at the junction of the three canyons, not Weaver's Needle. I won't say you're wrong though, because I can see where you're coming from. But if I follow your line of reasoning, I wind up on Palomino...very interesting way of looking at it though! Sorry to cross-post between you and Paul. Best regards, Jim

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Marius, hope all is well in your neck of the woods! Paul might be busy with a snow shovel right now (hope you made it through that NorEaster without too much damage, Paul!) The specific quote by the author is:

"Weaver's Needle stands amid three canyons - namely, West Boulder on the west, East Boulder in the middle, and Needle Canyon on the east. The three converge some two miles northwest of the peak, AND AT THAT POINT there is a mile-long ridge covered with dense brush. THIS RIDGE runs northwestward and finally loses itself in a right-angle intersection with La Barge Canyon, which itself flows northwest to its junction with the Salt River." (all emphasis mine)

To me, it sounds like he's focused at the junction of the three canyons, not Weaver's Needle. I won't say you're wrong though, because I can see where you're coming from. But if I follow your line of reasoning, I wind up on Palomino...very interesting way of looking at it though! Sorry to cross-post between you and Paul. Best regards, Jim

Jim - survived it but it's been a rough week or so. First we had the 2-3 day NE'r that dumped a ton of rain and flooding followed by my having to get a tooth extracted Tuesday morning followed by the 16+ inches of wet heavy snow we got late yesterday through to this morning. Our subdivision has buried utilities so unless a major disruption happens at a power station we don't have power outages often. Lots of trees and power lines around here today though.

Marius - Jim stated exactly how I interpret the words in Ely's book - namely that the NW brushy ridge STARTS at the point where the 3 canyons converge. I too understand your interpretation - I just don't agree that it's the correct way to interpret the written words.

All - I'll try very hard over the next few days to post a few more things. It's reached the point where I think most if not all of us can agree on a couple things...

1) At BEST, the book's description of where Ruth's skull and skeleton were found are confusing and can lead different people to different places depending on their interpretation. Notice in this case I didn't say "Ely's words" because it's clear there was a great deal of "storytelling and editing" which took place in that book. At WORST, the book's description is impossible to follow - either poorly written or just inaccurate to the landscape.

2) I would say most of you know where Ruth's skull and skeleton were documented to have been located - and there is no way to interpret the book description to match those two areas.

It's been discussed over and over again as to whether maybe Ruth was killing in one location and his body moved from one or more locations to where they were finally discovered. There's no way to answer that question anymore unless a family member of someone in the know ever comes forward or documents are uncovered that can prove one thing or another. Lots of hypotheses and theories that are interesting to discuss, but resolve nothing.

I would ask Matthew and Joe if they can expound more on the importance of the saddle between West Boulder and Little Boulder near the Del Monte claim if they can. What is it about that area that ties Adolph Ruth to it, and/or what makes that such an interesting location to the LDM searches?

Joe - you mentioned something about Ely's son (Erwin) taking advantage of someone and them holding a grudge - can you expound on that? Matthew, can you share your copies of what you found in the Sheriff's records before they were destroyed?

Still lots of questions, and ultimately it probably won't help anyone find anything but it adds to the history of the legends and new information is ALWAYS welcome!!!

Paul

 

[markmar]

Paul

You wrote in the post #25 : " I find it very hard to believe that Sims Ely who spent a decent amount of time out in the mountains wasn't aware of the topography " ...

Even if the editors made some mistakes , there would not be all wrong placed on the ground as nobody would not be able to follow Ely's description . I am sure Ely have read his book , and if he was aware of the topography of the region , then logically he would make an objection to the editor to change the text .
In this case , the text was not changed , so we have to search what went wrong with the description of the landmarks . The only logical explanation is how Sims saw/imagined that ridge from the south and used an odd way to describe the region , jumping from the first image with WN to the junction of the three canyons , but having in his mind the first image .
I believe this mistake occurred because Sims wanted to connect the WBC with that brushy ridge , and he didn't use the correct expression of the words to make the text more simple and understandable . The most simple , if the author was aware of the landmarks of the region , would be to use the mountains with their names as he did with the canyons and the WN , but he wanted to add more mystery to the story , with the bad results which we have to debate now .

I agree with you and the others who believe how if we follow literally the clues/directions given by Sims in his book , we find out how that ridge don't exist and then our attention will be moved to the WBC which was used many times in his description .
But this is the magic of the quest , to search and to find what is wrong and what is accurate in any story and route which is related to treasure hunting or treasure hunters , and to understand the mindset of those who told or wrote them .​

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul

You wrote in the post #25 : " I find it very hard to believe that Sims Ely who spent a decent amount of time out in the mountains wasn't aware of the topography " ...

Even if the editors made some mistakes , there would not be all wrong placed on the ground as nobody would not be able to follow Ely's description . I am sure Ely have read his book , and if he was aware of the topography of the region , then logically he would make an objection to the editor to change the text .
In this case , the text was not changed , so we have to search what went wrong with the description of the landmarks . The only logical explanation is how Sims saw/imagined that ridge from the south and used an odd way to describe the region , jumping from the first image with WN to the junction of the three canyons , but having in his mind the first image .
I believe this mistake occurred because Sims wanted to connect the WBC with that brushy ridge , and he didn't use the correct expression of the words to make the text more simple and understandable . The most simple , if the author was aware of the landmarks of the region , would be to use the mountains with their names as he did with the canyons and the WN , but he wanted to add more mystery to the story , with the bad results which we have to debate now .

I agree with you and the others who believe how if we follow literally the clues/directions given by Sims in his book , we find out how that ridge don't exist and then our attention will be moved to the WBC which was used many times in his description .
But this is the magic of the quest , to search and to find what is wrong and what is accurate in any story and route which is related to treasure hunting or treasure hunters , and to understand the mindset of those who told or wrote them .​

Marius - Thanks for clarifying - I understand your perspective clearly now

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim - survived it but it's been a rough week or so. First we had the 2-3 day NE'r that dumped a ton of rain and flooding followed by my having to get a tooth extracted Tuesday morning followed by the 16+ inches of wet heavy snow we got late yesterday through to this morning. Our subdivision has buried utilities so unless a major disruption happens at a power station we don't have power outages often. Lots of trees and power lines around here today though.

Marius - Jim stated exactly how I interpret the words in Ely's book - namely that the NW brushy ridge STARTS at the point where the 3 canyons converge. I too understand your interpretation - I just don't agree that it's the correct way to interpret the written words.

All - I'll try very hard over the next few days to post a few more things. It's reached the point where I think most if not all of us can agree on a couple things...

1) At BEST, the book's description of where Ruth's skull and skeleton were found are confusing and can lead different people to different places depending on their interpretation. Notice in this case I didn't say "Ely's words" because it's clear there was a great deal of "storytelling and editing" which took place in that book. At WORST, the book's description is impossible to follow - either poorly written or just inaccurate to the landscape.

2) I would say most of you know where Ruth's skull and skeleton were documented to have been located - and there is no way to interpret the book description to match those two areas.

It's been discussed over and over again as to whether maybe Ruth was killing in one location and his body moved from one or more locations to where they were finally discovered. There's no way to answer that question anymore unless a family member of someone in the know ever comes forward or documents are uncovered that can prove one thing or another. Lots of hypotheses and theories that are interesting to discuss, but resolve nothing.

I would ask Matthew and Joe if they can expound more on the importance of the saddle between West Boulder and Little Boulder near the Del Monte claim if they can. What is it about that area that ties Adolph Ruth to it, and/or what makes that such an interesting location to the LDM searches?

Joe - you mentioned something about Ely's son (Erwin) taking advantage of someone and them holding a grudge - can you expound on that? Matthew, can you share your copies of what you found in the Sheriff's records before they were destroyed?

Still lots of questions, and ultimately it probably won't help anyone find anything but it adds to the history of the legends and new information is ALWAYS welcome!!!

Paul

Paul,

Not sure that Matthew places any importance to that saddle, or any of my theories concerning it.

Admittedly, my own focus is on Ely's description of the site where the body was found overlooks West Boulder. On top of that nebulous comment, is the fact that someone, cleverly, placed the Stone Map Trail directly through the Saddle. It ends at the heart outcropping that I have posted numerous times. It may all be coincidence, but I like how it all dovetails so nicely. In addition to that, Harry LaFrance also tripped through that area. Barry Storm claimed to have found a rich piece of float ore in Old West Boulder Canyon which, relatively speaking, is just around the corner.

The ridge that continues southward from the saddle has some interesting stories of mines as told , I believe, by Matthew.

More later.

Take care,

Joe

Somewhere, in a box, I have the letter from Adolph Ruth talking about magnetite. I believe that is the outcropping we found in Little Boulder Canyon, just below the saddle. (East)

 

[|KRATOS|]

Thanks for the warm welcome Jim. I am not too familiar with Robert E. Lee, but I was more referring to Walter Gassler's account. In his notes he stated that Tex Barkley told him about moving Adolf Ruth's body from Peter's Mesa. I don't see why Tex or Walter would have lied about that conversation. Do you feel Walter's notes are inaccurate or altered?

Thanks for your input,

KRATOS