EASY CHALLENGE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE CHALLENGED

[ECS]

Laf and Crypto like to post challenges as if they hold arcane secrets to the Beale ciphers.
We all enjoyed Laf's "you failed" pictures.
Well Lads, here a gauntlet for you:
WE have all heard your line, and ya'll heard mine, so provide hard documented evidence that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that anything in the 1885 Beale Papers actually ever happened.
Claiming that Thomas Beale , Robert Morriss, were real people, will not be accepted as proof- that has been discussed many times to no avail.
What is required for proof is:
1. The Beale Expedition, as written actually occurred.
2. The encounter with Morriss at the Washington Hotel actually occurred.
3. Any outside account from a Bedford county resident of this activity.
4. Ward, Sherman, and possibly Hutter and Guggenheimer were not involved in the writing of the Beale Papers.
I can list several more, but this should be a good start.
Without any of these confirmations, claims of a solved cipher mean nothing, if the Beale adventure never happened.
Proving that it happened will provide the credibility so far lacking in ya'll never ending claims.
The real game is now afoot!

 

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[ECS]

Very quite in here. Must be because it is a lot easier to claim a solved cipher, than to find supporting evidence that anything in the Beale Papers actually happened.

 

[bigscoop]

I have researched this story for the past 31 years all I have found is circumstantial evidence with no names listed. To prove the Beale Expedition actually happened is near impossible because there is no paper trail. Nothing in the newspapers, nothing in French Trapper Journals and nothing in the Spanish Archives. If this story actually happened it was covert and under cover of an act of military. All American citizens were arrested just like James Pursley for 17 years (house arrest) unable to leave Sante Fe. There was James Beard and Robert McKnight they were released with the Jacob Fowler Expedition pretty near the time James Pursley was released. No party of one or two men could go into Sante Fe without being arrested and being documented in the Spanish Archives let alone a party of 30 men. Frenchmen were different they could go in and out of the territory. Some traders from St. Louis traded on the Platte River but they were owned by French Companies. It looks to me like this story never happened and like ECS said it was written for a dime novel.

What surprises in your summation is the amount of references to "French" and yet you continue to completely ignore this "extremely strong" possibility. Very curious, indeed. "Risque" is a name of French origin, as is the word "connexions" the author used only once and only when challenging his readers to discover the connections. Perhaps you should adjust your thinking to at least entertain the notion. I promise you that there is much out there that will come as a big surprise to you once you do.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Very quite in here. Must be because it is a lot easier to claim a solved cipher, than to find supporting evidence that anything in the Beale Papers actually happened.

OR... ppl are just ignoring your challenge; just playing with the numbers of Ciphers 1 & 3... "DOVE-TAILING" or "SHOE-HORNING"... to "Fit" their Ciphers Theories. QUIETNESS could be good for that... only RECOVERY will do, IMHO.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

What surprises in your summation is the amount of references to "French" and yet you continue to completely ignore this "extremely strong" possibility. Very curious, indeed. "Risque" is a name of French origin, as is the word "connexions" the author used only once and only when challenging his readers to discover the connections. Perhaps you should adjust your thinking to at least entertain the notion. I promise you that there is much out there that will come as a big surprise to you once you do.

PROGRESSIVE R & I as time goes by, MAY indicate that. As Charlie Button once wrote in the VIRGINIAN 4/24/1857 newspaper about Napoleon... (a quote from N.) "As Napoleon said when one of his Marshals had lost a battle; 'ALAS, I cannot be be EVERYWHERE'." Just showing that Charlie WAS aware of N. ANOTHER "piece" of interesting info from FOR GOOD & BAD, CIVIL WAR EDITOR WAS A MAN OF HIS TIME: AFTER the C.W. (aka CONFEDERATE WAR)... , Newspaper was the DAILY VIRGINIAN; "He ended his newspaper career with a bizarre interlude in which he sold the DAILY VIRGINIAN to one of his sub-editors, WHO HAD EARLIER WRITTEN A DIME NOVEL THAT MAY HAVE SPARKED THE BEALE TREASURE LEGEND ABOUT A HOARD OF GOLD BURIED IN BEDFORD (COUNTY, VA). Then Button bought the paper back." Charlie died in 1894... he was 72. John W. Sherman is NOT mentioned in this article.

 

[bigscoop]

If this story actually happened it was covert and under cover of an act of military.

Even the French military was present in the west. In reality, all of the required elements you suggest were in place, they just weren't recognized as United States elements and so they are, perhaps, too quickly eliminated as possibilities. All of the required experience and resources were there, as were the sources of wealth and the reason to move it covertly from west to east during the period in question. There were also important connections in Bedford County and Richmond Virginia.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

STILL not connected to Beale PAPERS Pamphlet; pretend I'm from Missouri... SHOW ME!

 

[bigscoop]

STILL not connected to Beale PAPERS Pamphlet; pretend I'm from Missouri... SHOW ME!

Ah....but there are direct connections to the Beale Pamphlet story. And this all begins with the author's use of the word "connections" and that chronological order I've posted several times. This will eventually lead us to John Sherman's uncle, a man who was ironically known as "Mexico" Sherman, a man who also held direct connections at Galveston Island, Bedford county, and with the French exiles during the exact period in question. But at least this much I have offered many times in these forums and still no objective takers simply because they have it in their minds that the story must remain a localized/American thing. Yet, even in their own localized vicinity a certain French influence becomes apparent if only they would look for it.

And to add, we do have "directly connecting" evidence. What we do not have and still badly need is "directly implicating" evidence. This is why we're so locked in on those endless piles of private paper collections and personal correspondences. It is our belief that "if" these transfers did take place then this required directly implicating evidence will be discovered in the form of a document discovered within these vast resources. In fact, we may have already discovered that series of implicating exchanges. Only time will tell.

 

[ECS]

... "Risque" is a name of French origin, as is the word "connexions" the author used only once and only when challenging his readers to discover the connections...

How many times have I stated that the Beale story has a connexion to the Risqué extended family bloodline?
Which by blood or marriage included both Ward and Sherman, and the much overlooked F C Hutter.

 

[ECS]

...and the 1882 massacre of John Pickrell Risqué and his party by native Americans while inspecting gold and silver mines at Gold Gulch, Arizona.

 

[bigscoop]

How many times have I stated that the Beale story has a connexion to the Risqué extended family bloodline?
Which by blood or marriage included both Ward and Sherman, and the much overlooked F C Hutter.

And yet there is another in this extended line, through marriage, that continues to be greatly overlooked or unrecognized. I have stated many times that the duel between Risque and Beale was not over a girl, but rather it was over insult and stern differences. I still believe this to be the case.

I'm getting ready to post a new thread, cast in a much different light then previously proposed that may help to offer a different level of insight on an extremely imposing, and even likely, possibility. Charles Button, as Reb has already posted example, quoted the "philosophies" Nepoleon. I think you'll find that this new thread proposes some very interesting possibilities.

 

[bigscoop]

For one thing when Sherman took over the newspaper from Charles Button, he did so after the Beale Treasure Ads had already been placed in the newspapers. On a second thought, Sherman would not have had reason to go to Richmond in 1862 but Charles W. Button was trying to keep his paper going and if I am not mistaken the only location in Virginia where you could find paper for a newspaper was in that town from the Confederate Government. A man in Danville, Va brought into the Confederacy the first paper to print the Confederate notes on and he and his friends had connections to Lynchburg as well as others high up in the Confederate Government.

Naw bigscoop, I do not believe the French brought the treasure to Virginia. I believe TJB and his companions brought the treasure here and it is still here buried where it was originally placed over 193 years ago.

193 years ago? I think if this is the case, which we are told in the story that it is, then you need to let loose of any CSA/KGC notions as this continued clinging to Civil War notions is, perhaps, just providing undue smoke and complications. The wealth in question was transferred long before any CSA/KGC implications so if we stick to what has been offered to us in the story an let loose of these local and other southern romances then perhaps things might become a little clearer and less confusing.

 

[ECS]

And yet there is another in this extended line, through marriage, that continues to be greatly overlooked or unrecognized. I have stated many times that the duel between Risque and Beale was not over a girl, but rather it was over insult and stern differences. I still believe this to be the case...

...and that girl, Julia Hancock, married William Clark, of the Lewis & Clark Expedition that started out from Fincastle.
Reckon William Clark was familiar with buffalo hunts and friendly native Americans.

 

[ECS]

For one thing when Sherman took over the newspaper from Charles Button, he did so after the Beale Treasure Ads had already been placed in the newspapers...

John William Sherman's mother was a Otey, and one of the Hart brothers was married to an Otey, another "all in the family" connexion.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

bigscoop, I have been unable to verify any treasure coming from the southwest. However the story was born within 20 years of the end of the Civil War. The KGC were very good story tellers also only their stories would lead you astray much like the Beale Treasure story has done over the past 130 years. To rule out the Civil War and the treasures of the South would not be wise at this time. I believe there may have been misdirections by the story and Frank James could very well have something to do with this story? He stayed in Lynchburg, Va the Winter of 1881 until the Spring of 1882, when he got news of Jesse James being shot in the back. I will leave that option open.

I think it odd that Frank James would be in Lynchburg, Va from 1881 to 1882 and then he and his brother Jesse James were in Danville, Va and Anson County, N.C. in 1879 ti 1880, They also visited the area where known KGC depositories are located.

YEP!

 

[ECS]

A RETURN TO "ALL IN THE FAMILY"

Most of the families lived in Bedford and Botetourt counties.
The Risqué/Beale duel was fought in Fincastle.
The Lewis & Clark Expedition departed from Fincastle.
Pascal Buford came into contact with Thomas Beale during the Battle of New Orleans.
Both Kennerly and Hutter families has connections to St Louis.
William Clark married Julia Hancock, over whom the Risqué/Beale duel was fought.
Growing up, Ward and his Hutter cousins would have heard these family stories...
...stories that were adapted for the Beale Papers.
The Hutters both served the Confederacy, as well as friend, Max Guggenheimer, and were versed in CSA codes.
J P Risqué and party were massacred by Indians while inspecting gold/silver mines in Gold Gulch, Arizona.
Then will have Ward's cousin, John William Sherman, with a gift for the dramatic, who wrote plays for the local thespian group, and had a print shop, was a sub-editor for the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN, where the job pamphlet was advertised for sale, and eventually bought that newspaper.
Yes, this may well be a string of coincidences, but it is well beyond just happenstance, and could serve well as a foundation for a western treasure adventure dime novel that ends in Bedford county.

 

[bigscoop]

This thread is about alleged shipments of the gold, silver, and jewels, and their possible alternate source.

 

[ECS]

This thread is about alleged shipments of the gold, silver, and jewels, and their possible alternate source.

... this thread is about provide hard documented evidence outside of the Beale Papers that would prove that the events as written, actually happened.
I have presented the possible source material from the Risqué extended family that may have been utilized in creating the Beale story- loose facts woven into a fabric of fiction.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

... this thread is about provide hard documented evidence outside of the Beale Papers that would prove that the events as written, actually happened.
I have presented the possible source material from the Risqué extended family that may have been utilized in creating the Beale story- loose facts woven into a fabric of fiction.

Aka... FACTION! FICTION, based on FACTS!

 

[bigscoop]

... this thread is about provide hard documented evidence outside of the Beale Papers that would prove that the events as written, actually happened.
I have presented the possible source material from the Risqué extended family that may have been utilized in creating the Beale story- loose facts woven into a fabric of fiction.

My bad. I actually thought I was on a different thread.
Anyhow, the entire issue with any theory, proclaimed fact or fiction, is the lack of any directly implicating evidence one way or the other. These same requirements still apply to the fiction theory as well. Sure, all of these family connections may have been used in the crafting of a dime novel, but on the other hand, maybe not as this same directly implicating documentation still fails to exist on both sides of the looming debate. So really, it's a pointless debate with no decided outcome until that directly implicating evidence surfaces, if it ever does.