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Frankn

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Well, I spent 8 years in the Army so I think I am entitled to my opinion here.
I am sick and tired to seeing refrences to US tourcure of the enemy. Things were mentioned like turning the lights on and off to deprive them of sleep and here they are cutting off the heads of there captured prisoiners and you see less protest. I think we would be better off without prisiners if you get my drift. Just my opinion on war tactics. Frank five star.png
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Well, I spent 8 years in the Army so I think I am entitled to my opinion here.
I am sick and tired of seeing refrences to US tourcure of the enemy. Things were mentioned like turning the tights on and off to deprive them of sleep and here they are cutting off the heads of there captured prisiners and you see less protest. I think we would be better off without prisiners if you get my drift. Just my opinion on war tactics. Frankfive star.png
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FRANKN,


EVERYBODY is entitled to their opinions military or not. That said, I spent the better part of my young life in both the US Navy and then the US Army. I have taken off in a LOT of airplanes, but only landed in a few.


What you read in the Democrat Report, is only the tip of the iceberg. Turning lights on and off, and blah, blah, blah, is not torture. We have plausible deniability when it comes to most of the really horrible stuff. It is an old soliloquy from the left that torture does not work. If it didn't work, it would not have been used for thousands of years. If torture is used by ignorant thugs, all it does is inflict pain. Administered properly, torture provides a wealth of information. Here's what I mean by plausible deniability:


Let's take Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for instance. Lets say that the US captures him, and interrogates him using what we can do (waterboarding, sleep deprivation, angry voices). Lets say he resists that and doesn't talk. So, we hand him over to the Egyptians (currently the world's best torturers). Now visualize this scene: Khalid Sheikh is in the basement of some building in the middle of the Negev Desert. He is naked and hanging by his thumbs from a pipe in the ceiling. He has been awake for several days. Two Americans in civilian clothes stand against one wall of this room, two men (??nationality??) sit at a desk by another wall, and two men stand on either side of Khalid Sheikh. The Americans never speak a single word. They just have a pad of legal paper. On that paper are two columns. The left column contains questions to which we already know the answers. The right column contains questions to which we still need answers (or at least verification of the answers we have).


The Americans show the legal pad to the men at the desk, and point to the first question in Column A (we already know the answer). They ask Khalid that question in Arabic. No matter what his answer is, he gets intense pain. He is asked the same question again. No matter what his answer is, he gets pain again. After he answers the question truthfully for a few times (receiving pain every time), they move to the second question in Column A (we already know the answer). Same thing happens again. Ask the same question over and over, and once we get him answering truthfully several times in a row after receiving pain every time, we move on. They then skip to the first question in Column B (we don't know the answer). Same thing. No matter how he answers for the first several times, he gets intense pain. Once he answers the same way many times, we skip back to Column A (we already know the answers). This process continues back and forth between the two columns of questions for days and weeks. He is given drugs to keep him from passing out (methamphetamine), and this also has a side effect that works to our advantage. It makes our friend Khalid very paranoid. May even cause hallucinations with the right amounts administered and stress levels achieved. Speed induced hallucinations are never of nice things. People usually hallucinate things that scare them intensely. Between the drugs and the pain, he would be hard pressed to remember how he answered his last question, much less one asked three days previously. Once he has answered the same way to the questions we needed answering several times over several days, we give him a rest, because at some point he will completely break down and become useless. Now we can be fairly confident that he gave us correct answers that we needed, but we would go through that entire process with other terrorists and get the same answers from them all before any of the Column B Questions are put in Column A.


So, when we get several bad guys giving us the same answers under a lot of pain and discomfort, we get a wealth of actionable information. THAT is how we found Osama's Driver (which in turn led us to Osama). Also, we never touched nor spoke to this guy after we handed him over to the ??? (Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, pick a country). Because of this, we can legally say that we handed him over to the ???. We didn't torture him.


....... and do I care about the inhumanity we show in torturing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and those like him? Not a bit. I would happily stand there and rip out his fingernails. Playing fair is for Football and Soccer. When you commit to a war, you have to win at all costs. Playing fair doesn't enter into it. I am a believer in the idea that if we commit to an action that would cost ONE American Life, then anything less than winning at all costs is a dishonor to any American Life lost in that action.


Mike
 

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I'm with BC on this one. Why should we be the ones to dictate to the rest of the world how to live their own lives in their own countries unless we do it for their resourses.

As we bomb wedding parties, funerals and other gatherings in order to kill one bad guy but end up killing 28 civilians do you think the remaining family will stand still and allow it????

No more than you would.

Keep this in mind. If we as a nation are going to allow torture for any reason, the rest of the world will look to us, the leader of the world, and say, "Well, they do it. It must be ok".

I wager this thread disappears in about three more minutes.
 

Whatever means nessecary to keep our country safe is my opinion. If they were'nt militants they would'nt end up in the situtation to be tourtured for information. Just my opinion,
 

Hrm and they say I'm mentally ill. The way I see it with people like Osama, he wouldn't have bothered us to begin with, had we not been over there for years trying to change those people to fit the western ideology and forcing them to our warmongers wills. We started the unnessary wars with those people, so pull the fingernails off of the dictators in DC, that are trying their best to dictate to the rest of the world how to live their lives.

Mike

Really wish it was that simple. Osama was trained by us to fight the Russians when they invaded Afghanistan.

A for dictating how others live, well, the Middle East isn't exactly innocent. Remember the Oil Embargo of the '70's? That problem will be taken care of here shortly. The good ole USA is on track to be the world's largest producer of oil next year. So maybe they can go live how they want to now. Ready for the implosion that is going to happen?
 

I'm with BC on this one. Why should we be the ones to dictate to the rest of the world how to live their own lives in their own countries unless we do it for their resourses.

As we bomb wedding parties, funerals and other gatherings in order to kill one bad guy but end up killing 28 civilians do you think the remaining family will stand still and allow it????

No more than you would.

Keep this in mind. If we as a nation are going to allow torture for any reason, the rest of the world will look to us, the leader of the world, and say, "Well, they do it. It must be ok".

I wager this thread disappears in about three more minutes.

We had the people who could have taken out targets of opportunity at one time. However, they were deemed no longer necessary by certain people. No political crap intended, just a statement of fact.

And the people of this country seem to have a problem with assassination squads.

Me, I'd rather a small group of people perform a surgical strike than bomb thousands, but people of this country seem to be scared of the big bad snake eater boogeyman.

Why kill thousands when killing a certain few has far more effect than most realize.

Like I said, no political crap intended, just statements of fact.
 

I think a point is being missed here. Those radical groups only goal is to have everyone either converted to there way of life or dead. Don't you see? They are killing aid workers, journalist, and priest without even flinching. Hay, they are even making videos of it and bragging about it! Do you really think they would stop at Asia, Africa etc.
Frank.five star.png

PS Mike, 101 or 82 ?
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Which mike ? I never was in the military, but I know a bunch of guys that were airborne, but I'm guessing the other Mike.

Mike

PS to young to fully understand the oil embargo, but most of my life I listened to my pops talk about that and other things. I was born in 69 in a BigCountry :p
 

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I am curious though, why was it our responsibility to train those men to fight the Russians to stop them from invading a country that has absolutely nothing to do with ours on the other side of the planet.

Please explain that.

The Cold War.

They WANTED our aid to defend themselves.

Osama was featured as a leader of the Mujaheddin on one of the stories aired by CBS back in the early 80's ... oh, I'm sorry! I wasn't supposed to remember that one, was I? ... needing our help to keep those nasty Ruskies out. Remember it because of his excellent english during the interview.
 

I think a point is being missed here. Those radical groups only goal is to have everyone either converted to there way of life or dead. Don't you see? They are killing aid workers, journalist, and priest without even flinching. Hay, they are even making videos of it and bragging about it! Do you really think they would stop at Asia, Africa etc.
Frank.View attachment 1090387

PS Mike, 101 or 82 ?
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If you mean me, I was 10th Mountain.
 

Now that I thought about the title of frankn's post, I realized as I never served, I'm not entitled to an opinion and I respect that, please disregard my statements.

Mike

Your always entitled to your opinion. Some of us just have a different opinion based on what we saw and had to deal with, like suicide vests on children.

For what it's worth, the radicals should be hunted down and killed like the animals they are, then buried wrapped in a pig skin.
 

I served, and as ex service personnel, I wouldn't serve again if the country I served for didn't abide by the Geneva Conventions. When the go ahead was given to circumvent those conventions the "moral" authority and the weight it carried flew out the window.

Alot of the radicals were created out of the remainder of the dead wedding parties and funeral processions. One of the biggest radical didn't want a certain countries troops or bases in his holy land. Sometimes the radicals have real reasons for not wanting to be subject.
 

I agree 100% with frank. I was in the Army for 3 years. Been in Nam in 1969, Served with the First Infantry Division, and then with the 101st Airborne Div. I was a grunt and seen things that that no kid should be able to witness.(I was 19 years old). Having to treat our prisoner with kid gloves just pisses me off. Let the military alone and let them get the job done, . Did we not learn anything from Vietnam?? Why are we sending men back for 2,3 4. or more combat tours. These men are going to have serious problems when they return. I don't think this should be allowed. I was in combat for 12 months and have problems, but we were told to suck it up. Thank God our men are getting the treatment they need, and I would like to think Vietnam vets had something to do with this. Frank you have earned the right to speak and I back you 100% and will back you all the way to my grave. I don't even know you but you have my respect...........Pete
 

I was in combat for 12 months and have problems, but we were told to suck it up.

Welcome to the forums Pete. You might check out the "Barracks" section, there's a number of Vietnam Vets on Treasurenet.

And Frank, once again you are absolutely correct!
 

The Cold War.

They WANTED our aid to defend themselves.

Osama was featured as a leader of the Mujaheddin on one of the stories aired by CBS back in the early 80's ... oh, I'm sorry! I wasn't supposed to remember that one, was I? ... needing our help to keep those nasty Ruskies out. Remember it because of his excellent english during the interview.

HA! He was CIA... he went "rogue". CIA ALWAYS "get" their "rogue agents"; we are THANKFUL!
 

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