Okay, more pseudo-experts. I didn't want to take a large group there any way. There's two who aren't going. Let us all know when when one of you find Dutch's box so I can delete this post. Interested persons pay no attention to the peanut gallery. Seeing is believing.
Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure
- Thread starter GaBnn3
- Start date
Hello everyone. Its funny how time flies. I finally stumbled back onto this post, witch is one of my favorite subjects ( Dutch Schultz) after seeing it on today's current posts. It had escaped my memory that I had even read the thread before, so I started reading the whole thing and got down the line and saw my own post from 3 years ago. Moderate short term memory loss? At any rate it dawned on me that I still have not had the opportunity to search for the Dutchmans' treasure yet. I did the math years ago, its about 12 hours from me by petroleum combustion vehicle. I will say that after reading the whole thread, I have doubts that anyone has recovered this cache. For starters I would like to say that Swiss bank accounts were not real popular in post WW1 Europe. I doubt if any gangster stashed any money in an overseas bank until much after WW2, when the world had finally come to order. I once read a thread on a smaller treasure hunting site where some guy showed a picture of a cave and claimed that the Beal Treasure once was in the cave but had been recovered, there can be no conclusion without physical evidence of some kind. everyone dreams of finding the "big ticket', but... how can you find something that has an unknown search area ( possibly hundreds of square miles). someone come forward with the original map please. I cant imagine pissing away a lifetime looking for any one treasure with conventional equipment. years ago I inquired to Laura Levine about seeing her documentory "digging for Dutch", I of course never heard back from her so I didnt get to see it. My point being ...what information did these people have who went digging for it? Why this tree instead of that one? Why this mountain side instead of the other ones? This valley, these railroad trestles etc... random digging is just a waste of time without hard evidence. Its like Hiraldo Rivera's Al Capone Vault... I always wondered what instrumentation was used to determine if anything of materiel value existed behind those walls? The fact that there was a void there is not a good enough reason to publicize the find of the century. I think that a lot of the more famous treasure tales like Oak Island and Dutch Schultz's treasure actually do exist and have a solid factual basis. just like Oak Island has an elaborate and very technical method of burial wich has prevented its recovery for hundreds of years, you can bet that Dutch Schultze did not bury his accumulated fortune of 7 million in gold coins, diamonds, etc... 3 feet deep under a pine tree, it didnt happen. If your serious about finding this then start looking deeper.
ray in ny
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Interesting, I also had read this post back when it was fresh and followed it, and now have come back to it again. I reread the part about the tree marked 1934. I have several dead pine trees standing in my yard. The bark falls off as soon as the tree dies. A fallen pine tree with bark on it would have to have just fallen, not fallen years ago. So, it would have to have continued to live long past 1934 , and yes, be much bigger, unless its growth were stunted by lack of sunlight and/or moisture. I have been fascinated by this treasure since I first read about it many years ago, and would love to think that it is still buried somewhere within a few hours of where I live.
In the interest of trying to track this elusive and highly sought after hoard I just read: 'Kill the Dutchman!'. Evidently, most of the people involved w/ and close to Schultz died in the shoot-out at the chop house in Newark, NJ. The only exception who might know where the cache was located and could've recovered it back then was Marty Krompier.... On page 87 is the only reference it says something along the lines of that Schultz's lawyer knew he kept all this money in a box, but was UNSURE where he buried it.
Now fast forward to authors like Thomas P. Terry and his 'Treasure Atlas' who claim that in the presence of Schultz's lawyer he packed it up w/ all the diamonds, gold coins, stock/bonds and cash etc. and buried it in a stand of pines along Esopus Creek 3-4 miles south of Phoenicia, NY in the Catskills. Other authors used the same point as their theory for it's location. So, heres the $100K question: HOW DID ALL THESE AUTHORS STUMBLE ON THIS APPROXIMATE LOCATION AND WHERE DID THEY GET THE INFO
Also, the tree mentioned above could'nt have been the one because it wasn't carved w/ "1934" it was carved with a symbol....
I'm possibly road-tripping to Cooperstown, NY this summer and wondering how far this is from Phoenicia, NY?
HH
-spyguy
Now fast forward to authors like Thomas P. Terry and his 'Treasure Atlas' who claim that in the presence of Schultz's lawyer he packed it up w/ all the diamonds, gold coins, stock/bonds and cash etc. and buried it in a stand of pines along Esopus Creek 3-4 miles south of Phoenicia, NY in the Catskills. Other authors used the same point as their theory for it's location. So, heres the $100K question: HOW DID ALL THESE AUTHORS STUMBLE ON THIS APPROXIMATE LOCATION AND WHERE DID THEY GET THE INFO
Also, the tree mentioned above could'nt have been the one because it wasn't carved w/ "1934" it was carved with a symbol.... I'm possibly road-tripping to Cooperstown, NY this summer and wondering how far this is from Phoenicia, NY?
HH
-spyguy
pegleglooker
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hey gang,
I for one, am not " up to date " on this one, so I found a little info on it, for some background. In the vid it says that the tree was carved with a X not a date....
PLL
[youtube=425,350]/v/5jy-aAhOHGk&hl=en&fs=1"[/youtube]
Schultz had been hit in the spleen, stomach, colon and liver. He was mortally wounded, but he didn't die right away. Rushed to Newark City Hospital following the massacre, he lingered for nearly 24 hours, and drifted in and out of consciousness. His insides had been destroyed, and the ensuing infection ran his fever up to 106 degrees. The resulting delirium caused a steady stream of chatter, and police stenographer John Long was assigned to write down every word. It wasn't long before the dying words of Dutch Schultz made their way into the newspapers, and everyone in the world soon knew about the existence of the Dutchman's stashed millions.
Although there are a number of slightly different versions of Schultz's dying words, none contain much more than disjointed, incoherent ramblings. One version that is often reproduced begins Oh, mama, mama, mama . . .I am a pretty good pretzler. . .How many shots were fired at me?. . . John, please, did you buy me the hotel for a million?. . .I'll get you the cash out of the box. . .there's enough in it to buy four-five more. . .You can play jacks and girls do that with a soft ball and do tricks with. . .Lulu, drive me back to Phoenicia. . .Don't be a dope Lulu, we better get those Liberty bonds out of the box and cash `em. . .sure it was Danny's mistake to buy `em and I think they can be traced. . .Danny please get me in the car. . .Kindly take my shoes off, they're not off. . .there's handcuffs on `em . . . Wonder who owns these woods?. . .he'll never know what's hidden in `em. . .My gilt-edge stuff and those rats have tuned in. . .What did that guy shoot me for?
Other versions contain additional references such as Please crack down on the Chinaman's friends and Hitler's commander. . .All right, I am sore and I am going up and I am going to give you honey if I can. . .Look out. . .We broke that up. . .Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast . . .
Soon, there were as many versions of the legend of the buried treasure as there were stories of the Dutchman himself. Most of them involved Phoenicia, and many referenced a map, supposedly sketched by Lulu Rosenkranz lest the location of the burial site be forgotten by the city slickers still strangers to the trees and rocks and streams of the upstate country.
Several versions of the treasure tale place the location of the burial ground somewhere along Route 28 between the roadway and the Esopus Creek. Some place it along the railroad tracks leading into Phoenicia. One of the most popular stories is that Schultz and Lulu Rosenkranz carried a steel safe containing the loot to Phoenicia on an April night in 1933 and buried it in a grove of pine trees near the Esopus, with the obligatory "X" marking the specific tree under which the digging was done.
A more elaborate version of the events surrounding the hiding of the loot was revealed nearly 50 years ago by an old-timer-—he was over 80 years old at the time—-who claimed to have first-hand knowledge of the day Schultz and his men found a home for their millions.
This account has the treasure being buried the very afternoon Schultz and his gang were ambushed at the Palace Chop House. According to this tale, Dutch and one of his men, probably Rosenkranz, stopped for lunch at the Phoenicia Hotel, in the center of town. They left around one o'clock, got in a car, and drove a half a block, where they made a right hand turn onto Route 214. They proceeded north along the Stony Clove Creek for about eight miles, and stashed the money beneath the skull-shaped rock formation known as the Devil's Face. The two men were back in Phoenicia by three o'clock that afternoon, and returned to Newark for their fateful rendezvous with Bug Workman that evening.
Schultz's deathbed ramblings did make a reference or two to Satan, so the connection to the Devil's Face formation is a logical one, though it would seem more likely that the landmark Schultz would have used is the large rock known as the Devil's Tombstone, which is closer to town, and considerably more accessible than the 150-foot high rock skull. These were city boys, after all.
The late Mickey Simpson, a Phoenicia old-timer who remembered Schultz as well as anyone, had his own theory about the treasure. Sure, he said in 1991, Schultz might have buried his loot by the Esopus Creek, but if he did it was long gone. The Phoenicia area had suffered a number of serious floods over the years, he said, and surely even an iron box couldn't have survived them all. "Personally, I wouldn't step off this porch for it," Simpson said. "It's probably somewhere at the bottom of the Ashokan Reservoir."
Locals also like to tell stories of the elderly man who used to walk from place to place along the railroad tracks digging holes. When asked what he was digging for, he would say simply, "Dutch Schultz's buried treasure." The railroad finally made him stop; he was destroying their ballast.
A Phoenicia motel operator used to allow treasure hunters to dig on his property, but first asked them to sign a legal document promising him a split of whatever they found there. He abruptly stopped the practice when a particularly resourceful treasure hunter showed up with a backhoe, dug dozens of holes, and disappeared without filling them back in.
Early in summer 2000, Fox Cable came to Phoenicia to film a segment for its new series "Million-Dollar Mysteries" on the lost treasure of Prohibition gangster Dutch Schultz. It is one of the region's and America's most enduring treasure tales, and for more than 60 years people have searched for the millions Schultz was said to have hoarded and buried in or near this central Catskills' hamlet.
This time Fox invited Sullivan County Historian and Catskills' gangster expert John Conway to narrate the story of how Schultz, shortly after he returned from a trip to Phoenicia in 1935, was gunned down in the Palace Chop House in Newark. Schultz lingered for nearly 24 hours in the hospital, a police stenographer always by his side. There the dying and delirious Schultz, who was once considered to be the most powerful gangster in America, made cryptic references to Phoenicia and his loot: "Wonder who owns these woods?. . .He'll never know what's buried in ‘em."
The Fox Cable filming came at an opportune moment for Conway. His new treatment of Dutch Schultz and his lost treasure was just published by Purple Mountain Press.
And here is a link for the video " Digging for Schultz "..
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0357601/
I for one, am not " up to date " on this one, so I found a little info on it, for some background. In the vid it says that the tree was carved with a X not a date....
PLL
[youtube=425,350]/v/5jy-aAhOHGk&hl=en&fs=1"[/youtube]
Schultz had been hit in the spleen, stomach, colon and liver. He was mortally wounded, but he didn't die right away. Rushed to Newark City Hospital following the massacre, he lingered for nearly 24 hours, and drifted in and out of consciousness. His insides had been destroyed, and the ensuing infection ran his fever up to 106 degrees. The resulting delirium caused a steady stream of chatter, and police stenographer John Long was assigned to write down every word. It wasn't long before the dying words of Dutch Schultz made their way into the newspapers, and everyone in the world soon knew about the existence of the Dutchman's stashed millions.
Although there are a number of slightly different versions of Schultz's dying words, none contain much more than disjointed, incoherent ramblings. One version that is often reproduced begins Oh, mama, mama, mama . . .I am a pretty good pretzler. . .How many shots were fired at me?. . . John, please, did you buy me the hotel for a million?. . .I'll get you the cash out of the box. . .there's enough in it to buy four-five more. . .You can play jacks and girls do that with a soft ball and do tricks with. . .Lulu, drive me back to Phoenicia. . .Don't be a dope Lulu, we better get those Liberty bonds out of the box and cash `em. . .sure it was Danny's mistake to buy `em and I think they can be traced. . .Danny please get me in the car. . .Kindly take my shoes off, they're not off. . .there's handcuffs on `em . . . Wonder who owns these woods?. . .he'll never know what's hidden in `em. . .My gilt-edge stuff and those rats have tuned in. . .What did that guy shoot me for?
Other versions contain additional references such as Please crack down on the Chinaman's friends and Hitler's commander. . .All right, I am sore and I am going up and I am going to give you honey if I can. . .Look out. . .We broke that up. . .Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast . . .
Soon, there were as many versions of the legend of the buried treasure as there were stories of the Dutchman himself. Most of them involved Phoenicia, and many referenced a map, supposedly sketched by Lulu Rosenkranz lest the location of the burial site be forgotten by the city slickers still strangers to the trees and rocks and streams of the upstate country.
Several versions of the treasure tale place the location of the burial ground somewhere along Route 28 between the roadway and the Esopus Creek. Some place it along the railroad tracks leading into Phoenicia. One of the most popular stories is that Schultz and Lulu Rosenkranz carried a steel safe containing the loot to Phoenicia on an April night in 1933 and buried it in a grove of pine trees near the Esopus, with the obligatory "X" marking the specific tree under which the digging was done.
A more elaborate version of the events surrounding the hiding of the loot was revealed nearly 50 years ago by an old-timer-—he was over 80 years old at the time—-who claimed to have first-hand knowledge of the day Schultz and his men found a home for their millions.
This account has the treasure being buried the very afternoon Schultz and his gang were ambushed at the Palace Chop House. According to this tale, Dutch and one of his men, probably Rosenkranz, stopped for lunch at the Phoenicia Hotel, in the center of town. They left around one o'clock, got in a car, and drove a half a block, where they made a right hand turn onto Route 214. They proceeded north along the Stony Clove Creek for about eight miles, and stashed the money beneath the skull-shaped rock formation known as the Devil's Face. The two men were back in Phoenicia by three o'clock that afternoon, and returned to Newark for their fateful rendezvous with Bug Workman that evening.
Schultz's deathbed ramblings did make a reference or two to Satan, so the connection to the Devil's Face formation is a logical one, though it would seem more likely that the landmark Schultz would have used is the large rock known as the Devil's Tombstone, which is closer to town, and considerably more accessible than the 150-foot high rock skull. These were city boys, after all.
The late Mickey Simpson, a Phoenicia old-timer who remembered Schultz as well as anyone, had his own theory about the treasure. Sure, he said in 1991, Schultz might have buried his loot by the Esopus Creek, but if he did it was long gone. The Phoenicia area had suffered a number of serious floods over the years, he said, and surely even an iron box couldn't have survived them all. "Personally, I wouldn't step off this porch for it," Simpson said. "It's probably somewhere at the bottom of the Ashokan Reservoir."
Locals also like to tell stories of the elderly man who used to walk from place to place along the railroad tracks digging holes. When asked what he was digging for, he would say simply, "Dutch Schultz's buried treasure." The railroad finally made him stop; he was destroying their ballast.
A Phoenicia motel operator used to allow treasure hunters to dig on his property, but first asked them to sign a legal document promising him a split of whatever they found there. He abruptly stopped the practice when a particularly resourceful treasure hunter showed up with a backhoe, dug dozens of holes, and disappeared without filling them back in.
Early in summer 2000, Fox Cable came to Phoenicia to film a segment for its new series "Million-Dollar Mysteries" on the lost treasure of Prohibition gangster Dutch Schultz. It is one of the region's and America's most enduring treasure tales, and for more than 60 years people have searched for the millions Schultz was said to have hoarded and buried in or near this central Catskills' hamlet.
This time Fox invited Sullivan County Historian and Catskills' gangster expert John Conway to narrate the story of how Schultz, shortly after he returned from a trip to Phoenicia in 1935, was gunned down in the Palace Chop House in Newark. Schultz lingered for nearly 24 hours in the hospital, a police stenographer always by his side. There the dying and delirious Schultz, who was once considered to be the most powerful gangster in America, made cryptic references to Phoenicia and his loot: "Wonder who owns these woods?. . .He'll never know what's buried in ‘em."
The Fox Cable filming came at an opportune moment for Conway. His new treatment of Dutch Schultz and his lost treasure was just published by Purple Mountain Press.
And here is a link for the video " Digging for Schultz "..
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0357601/
ray in ny
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Thanks very much for the update and the info, pegleglooker. Much appreciated.
architecad
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pegle
Thanks for the video of "Unsolved mystery". I believe of that box, if somebody find it, the only thing that the finder could find in good conditions are 1. The gold coins,..2. The jewelry. The Bonds and the cash should be banished by the time, corrupted due the humity of the same river.Don't forget, that box wasn't build water proof. I was searching for that Dutch's box in 1999-2001, I found couple spot with possible hope to find but I give up.
Arch
Thanks for the video of "Unsolved mystery". I believe of that box, if somebody find it, the only thing that the finder could find in good conditions are 1. The gold coins,..2. The jewelry. The Bonds and the cash should be banished by the time, corrupted due the humity of the same river.Don't forget, that box wasn't build water proof. I was searching for that Dutch's box in 1999-2001, I found couple spot with possible hope to find but I give up.
Arch
I guess that documentory isnt for public veiwing, at least its not offered on Amazon. I e mailed Laura Levine years ago and asked how I could get a copy and she never responded. I'm sure there isnt mutch in the way of new leads on it anyhow. As far as Schultzes last words go, there has been alot of ad libbing. I have also read Paul Sanns book as well as other accounts of the stenographers recording. At no time did Dutch say " I wonder who owns these woods, hell never know whats hidden in them". That would be a pretty good admission if he had actually said it. I'm sure some industrious story writer added that in for good measure when he was retelling the story. I also have a copy of the Purple Mountain Press story, Its basicaly a longer version of the same story that has made the rounds all these years. As with most treasures that are very old there arent going to be any new revelations, this one will require alot of grunt work in the field. The author of Digging for Dutch, Laura Levine, has her own web site " Homer and Langleys Mystery Spot" wich is a curio shop of sorts in Phoenicia, if any one wants to check it out, its been years since I was on it. In Robert F Marxs' book "Buried treasures You Can Find", he states that there is another large treasure of gold coins and paper currency buried in the same general area as Dutchs treasure but closer to Phoenicia, he does not give a name as to who buried it but only that its from Prohibition also.
pegleglooker
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hey gang,
Her's a link for Diggin for Dutch... http://www.lauralevine.com/film/digging-for-dutch.php Click on the links at the bottom to read more.
Her's a link for Diggin for Dutch... http://www.lauralevine.com/film/digging-for-dutch.php Click on the links at the bottom to read more.
Shiloh1
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It's all good reading. How many stories are there out there with the same type of theme.
Bassmasterskip
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Fid is questionable
First ctalmadg your question holds truth as in the area is usually Pitch Pine or White Pine and for the engraving to have survived over 70 yrs. and still be visible hold a lot to question. Also Pitch Pine sheds a bit of its bark each year. Also I was born and raised in the Catskills in this area and the area between the Esopus Creek and Route 28 usually floods every spring as the snow melts which fills the Ashokan Reservoir. Water flow can become so violent that it has taken out train tracks and ripped down trees. We went rafting in the spring one year and my buddy lost his wallet which was returned to him three years later but was twenty miles down stream lodged in a tree root after the water receded. As this tree is laying down it is most likely have been placed at this spot by the water flooding or was up rooted somewhere from up stream.
I really find the topic of someone peeling the bark such a sin as it is part of history but the loss of the tree could come at any time as I stated with floods. I would have rather heard the tree was cut to preserve the section with the bark on so it could have been checked for accuracy.
First ctalmadg your question holds truth as in the area is usually Pitch Pine or White Pine and for the engraving to have survived over 70 yrs. and still be visible hold a lot to question. Also Pitch Pine sheds a bit of its bark each year. Also I was born and raised in the Catskills in this area and the area between the Esopus Creek and Route 28 usually floods every spring as the snow melts which fills the Ashokan Reservoir. Water flow can become so violent that it has taken out train tracks and ripped down trees. We went rafting in the spring one year and my buddy lost his wallet which was returned to him three years later but was twenty miles down stream lodged in a tree root after the water receded. As this tree is laying down it is most likely have been placed at this spot by the water flooding or was up rooted somewhere from up stream.
I really find the topic of someone peeling the bark such a sin as it is part of history but the loss of the tree could come at any time as I stated with floods. I would have rather heard the tree was cut to preserve the section with the bark on so it could have been checked for accuracy.
massey531
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I will tell you my madness so hear me out saying this. I truely believe that the Flying Dutchman made up this crazy story so he could hide his treasure somewhere else. Think about it. Would you just throw that kind of money into a waterproof trunk and bury a hole to hide it for a rainy day? Heck no! This is the early 1930's and people kept their poessesions close to them and were very particular and serious about their belongings bc they didnt have much back then to poesess bc those were hard times they were liveing in. So here is my madness as to what happend to Dutch's treasure. Dutch was scared of getting caught red handed by the authorities so in order to stay one step ahead of the law he manufactored this story to throw them off about what he truely did with his treasure. So in my opinion I think the Dutchman hid his treasure in one of his speakeasies or homesteads so nobody could find it. Im a clairvoyant and I can tell you know that its not hid in Phoenicia in a hole they dug up its in either in one of those places hidden away by concrete wall foundation underneith someones house
NYDUTCHMAN
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I came across this map and thread a few years ago and got a kick out of it. It brought back memories of my grandma telling me about my grandfather selling tourists maps of dutch schultz's treasure. He was a truck driver back during prohibition and hauled booze with his cousin down from Canada. That how he met my grandma. He had met dutch schultz a few times ran some loads for him. My grandfather wasn't anyone important not violent enough to be a mobster my grandma said. He moved upstate not far from where the treasure was thought to be hid so he could run down places to look . he never found it! never came close as my grandma said. she said he the map he used from a book and then added tracks and pine trees and other stuff to it to make it look real. As my grandma told me that there were probably a hundred different maps being sold to anyone that wanted them. My grandfather bought a new car by selling treasure maps. She said Dutch Schultz was too smart to let anyone see him burying anything and he had a bootleggers mentality . She also said he would know not to bury something where it would flood. So I doubt it was buried in phoencia or near it . I do believe there are a few caches out there some may have been found but not all.
TankerRobbie
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hi did you ever make it to the site and try out the radar? im planning a trip to check things over..
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Wind Walker
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I've been searching for this awhile.I found the site very different than what you guys are saying.I used a pendulum and dividing rods to find the site.I even found the X in tree.near pine grove.a distance matching the distance said in Dutchman book.I found.my ex is a relative of the Dutchman.her dad was still alive when I first started.interested parties message me.the only thing is getting down 2 feet looking
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Dutch had his headquarter and home in Bridgeport, Ct. Good hunting and good luck.
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I don't think anyone really knows for sure what happened to the loot? W.C. Jameson (Lost Treasures of American History) writes in his book that Jake Shapiro of Murder Inc., the Syndicate's hired gun, shot Krompier in the barber shop, took possession of the map, and then went to Phoenecia to find it. However, he writes that Shapiro could not interpret the map and searched for two days without finding it. Then, upon his return, two days later, the Police nabbed Shapiro in Kingston for shooting Krompier and found no map on him or any treasure. Shapiro never admitted to finding the treasure and even denied that he had found it. If Shapiro had found it I think he would have taken it or some portion of it with him, or spoke about it to someone while in prison, don't you?
With all that said, I think the original location of the treasure was found but without any treasure there. But I also think that Schultz wasn't that stupid to know that Lulu had spilled the beans to Krompier and even drew him a map? I think Schultz returned to recover the loot and perhaps bury it in another location as one story has it?
With all that said, I think the original location of the treasure was found but without any treasure there. But I also think that Schultz wasn't that stupid to know that Lulu had spilled the beans to Krompier and even drew him a map? I think Schultz returned to recover the loot and perhaps bury it in another location as one story has it?
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ZuzusRevenge
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I'm looking to explore some of these sites in the end of May and/or early June if anyone has time and is up for a little hiking. Thought we could hit the Boiceville area first and then a few more spots up north...
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