Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

[JT]

Like I said, I hope you are relying on false info, and are not trying to run an eventual scam on someone based on your "info" and "prowess" in finding something.

I've never seen someone defend to the death the hypothesis that they found a hole where treasure USED to be. I can see defending your hypothesis if you had actually found something...anything. Even a plaque from Schultz saying "I buried money here".

You don't have that. You don't have anything. The proof you offer up..... your own picture of the tree..... shoots down your theory. It doesn't prove that Schultz hid anything there, left a beer bottle there, or even peed in the bushes there.

What it does prove is that either you don't have the commonsense to realize that your "evidence" cannot be true, or it proves that you're lying, and you carved the date on the tree, because I've already established that the size of the tree coupled with tight bark and fresh wood under it means it cannot be 75 or 80 years old.

Everyone makes wrong conclusions, and that's ok. It's part of the hunt. If you want to stubbornly insist that you found the correct empty hole, and you want to be considered the "resident expert" on the Schultz cache, as you put it, then go right ahead. The majority of people that look at your "evidence" will realize that it doesn't pass the smell test.

If you are trying to work an angle to scam money from some unsuspecting sap, I hope he/she reads this, and walks away before it's too late. You may be perfectly honest, and you may truly believe that you are correct, but something about your posts gives me the opposite impression. I hope I'm wrong.

 

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[ZumbroKid]

Until such time as someone else finds that concusive proof, they claim I missed, I'm going to rightfully consider myself the resident expert on the Schultz cache. It would be a much more effective technique to explain how you did it in finding your treasure site, rather than just bashing my story. Yet, I know there's reasons for that. Some think an awful lot of themselves in building their elaborate theories based on one pic, without havong been there. I've been around enough to know when someone is BS'ing me. You can wrap a BS theory in flowery phrases and explain the rationale for it, using articultate and skillful use of the English language. But, it's still BS. My attitude annoys some. Oh well! The Schultz story is finished, unless the talkers are more than talk. And yeah, you're one of those clowns.

So far you are one of the few to present any form of evidence. If is up to others at this point to spend time, effort and money to present any form of evidence to disprove your claim. Thanks for the story.

 

[ZumbroKid]

GaBnn3, you do not need to name them. If you post a similar explaination such as the last one without names. They answer back all on their own.

 

[GaBnn3]

F2D, you are so right. Shame on me. My boys were with me, and take great pride on being part of the discovery. These guys came along trying to spoil it for us.

 

[corriente]

I am more interested in the origins of the Dutch Schultz treasure legend than the treasure itself, especially the association with Phoenicia New York. Where did it come from? A member of the Dutch Schultz mob mentioned his 3 foot by 2 foot by foot and a half steel treasure box in a magazine article in the late 1930s and speculated he might have buried it someplace. But there was no mention in that article of Phoenicia or the Catskills or anyplace else for that matter. The earliest reference I can find to Schultz?s supposed car ride to bury the treasure around Phoenicia with his bodyguard was in the 1968 book by Emil Schumacher entitled, ?Lost Treasures and How to Find Them.? But Schumacker does not list his sources and is deceased and there are some serious factual problems with his account. Does anyone know of written sources, newspaper or magazine articles, or other authoritative information concerning the treasure that pre-dates 1968? So far I have not been able to fine any. Most other accounts of the treasure post date the Schumacker version and seem to be based on it.

 

[GaBnn3]

I did mention, above, the known sources of information on this account, which I'll review in a moment. A couple of posters, above, threw around the "R" word, research, pretty loosely. When I see that, I know I'm hearing from one who doesn't understand the artistic nature of cache hunting. They throw around the "r" word in a context that suggests if one digs enough, one will always find that magic bullet of info that leads them directly to the object of their desires. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sometimes you just have to go with what you've got. What you would like to find is a written archive on the activities of a vicious and brutal gangster, who, by necessity, had to keep his activities secret from both the law and rival gangsters. These were not educted men who sought to preserve a historical account of themselves. You seek that magic bullet. Forget it. The primary source of info on this cache is Schultz, himself. After being shot, he lingered in a feverish delerium, with police stenographers at his side, taking down every word he spoke. There are a couple of books on his deathbed ramblings, due to the colorful gangster lingo he uses. Later the members of his gang only confirmed the treasure story. The only one who actually knew where it was buried was his bodyguard Lulu Rosencrantz, who was killed in the Schultz hit. You can be sure that Schultz did not trust his own gang members, whom he cheated on pay day. Lulu drew the map, which later fell into Shapiro's hands. In Schurmacher's account, Shapiro confirms the location of the cache as the Catskills, though he claims not to have found it. I have not verified Schurmacher's sources of information on the several important points he mentions. With Schurmacher's account being the primary source of information, I understand why you would want to track that info down. I had the same thoughts. I could not verify it, perhaps you can. Since, I could not verify it, I did the next best thing. I went into the field and looked. I found a likely spot that matched all known info. Having found this site, I now accept Schurmacher's account as well researched and accurate. You may suffer some discomfort at thinking it's not there for you. I assure you that my discomfort is much worse. If Lulu had not betrayed Schultz' confidence, by drawing the map, he would not have started the chain of events leading to it's recovery by Shapiro. In that case, it would have been sitting there waiting for me, and you never would have heard from me. One more thing. Kindly post the "serious factual errors" you believe exist in Schurmacher's account. I am not aware of any.

 

[corriente]

Thanks for the posting. With regard to historical inaccuracies in the Schurmacher account, there are several. According to both the ?Valacci Papers? and the ?Last Will and Testament of Lucky Luciano? Bo Wineberg?s negotiations with the Italian mob began in March 1934 vice 1933 as Schurmacher?s time line would suggest. The most egregious error was Schurmacher claiming Krompier was killed in a Manhattan barber chair in late November 1935. In fact he was hit in the Manhattan barber shop about an hour and half later on the same October 23rd night as Schultz but Krompier in fact survived. Both Allan May?s ?Dutch Schultz Beer Baron of the Bronx? and Paul Sann?s ?Kill the Dutchman? indicate the gunmen fired from the doorway and fled immediately with no mention of rifling their victim?s pockets. However, ?Bug? Workman did go through Schultz?s pockets. And Schurmacher?s version of Schultz?s deathbed ramblings mentions Phoenicia by name but no other version does, at least none that I can find that predates Schurmacher.

Without corroboration I?m reluctant to take everything Schurmacher says at face value. Schurmacher was a prolific writer on the occult and unsolved mysteries for Bataam books and pulp men?s magazines like Saga and Argosy, but the authenticity of some of his other articles has been called into question. For a critique of an article he wrote on spontaneous combustion ? where someone bursts into flame without an ignition source for no apparent reason -- do an internet search on the words ?Schurmacher Confabulation? without quotes.

Which leaves me still looking for a more satisfying explanation of where the Phoenicia connection comes from. Or to put it another way, does anyone remember treasure hunters looking for Schultz?s box around Phoenicia prior to the publication of Schumacher?s book in 1968? If so, what were they basing their search on? Thanks.

 

[GaBnn3]

I now see that I didn't clarify the answer to your question, so here it is. It was Schultz, himself, who on his deathbed indicated he had a treasure box hidden in the Phoenicia area. This info appeared in newspapers of the day, leading to many amateurish attempts to find it. You are as skeptical of my claim to have located the former burial site, as you are of Schurmachers info, which is cool. Like I've said before, it's a nice walk in the woods. The points you raise on Schurmacher's account seem minor to me.

 

[serpent]

Hello everyone, I do not claim to have read the entire thread, but I certainly will. Dutch Schultz is more than a passing interest to me, I have read " To Kill The Dutchman" and have a copy of Rouges Gallery: Dutch Schultz. A great documentary with Willaim Devane as narrarator I might add. I'm sure many of you have seen it. I would start out by saying that my initial thought on the whole treasure subject was that 7 million dollars will not fit into a chest that size, lets think vault or a tunnel into the sides of one of those Phoenicia mountains, and way beyond a mere arms reach. No one, and you can quote me on this : No one would bury that kind of money within arms reach. End quote. I read alot in the winter and its a first time read of an old book : Murder Inc. The story of the syndacite. I also have " The Life and Times of Lepke Buchalter" on order. From what I have read it seems that the Catskills were a dumping ground and many murders were committed there also. The area was host to many mobsters such as Lepke and Jack " Legs" Diamond, whose men fought running shootouts with the Dutchmans men on dark country roads. I'll bet there is alot more than just Dutch's money up in those hills.

 

[GaBnn3]

You are quite right about the Catskills. This area was a waypoint for the gangsters running booze from Canada down to the city. Locals also ran stills for the Dutchman up in this area. It wouldn't surprize me to hear that someone found one of their cache sites. In fact, due to certain features, I located the ideal area to search, where I thought Schultz should have buried it. Yet, it was not in Phoenicia proper. In deciding whether or not Schultz may have known of this spot, my decision to search that area was finalized after I learned that a Schultz still was in that immediate vicinity. That spot was where I found the site.

 

[serpent]

I'm sure you know the area very well by now. I've wanted to see it firsthand for quite awhile, maybe this will be the summer. I've had geographical survey maps of the area for some years. weather or not Dutch's treasure is gone there is probably more like you suggested to look for, I even remember reading a paragraph in a well known book saying as much. What amazes me is that your average gangster was so greedy that he would rather take it to the grave than tell his wife or mother were it was so that they wouldnt be poor once they had been killed or died. I have read this about alot of them. I hope that there will still be areas that one can operate in by the time I get up there, now a days you have to involve property owners and its been one hastle after another to get anything done. But it would be a real thrill to get to do it.

 

[GaBnn3]

Corriente: I did a quick re-read of the Schurmacher account. You have made some assumptions about his time line, which I don't read into his account. Schultz was indicted and went on the run in Jan. '33, until turning himself in, in Nov.'34. Of course Luciano's contact with Weinberg was within this period. I don't see where you find an error. As for the attempted hit on Krompier, Schurmacher states it occurred "one day in late November." This is correct, for 1934. In any case, if these were errors, they are insignificant. I like puzzles. I created a puzzle within this thread. There is enough info contained herein for someone to find the spot. I had hoped for someone to follow my reasoning and arrive at the same deductions as me. Instead, I find most struggling with small details. Here's another clue. On Lulu's map, there is reference to one feature he drew, described as a small, shack-like structure, with the notation "Lodging for Hunters and Fishermen." This structure is still standing today. If the suspense is killing you, e-mail me.

 

[shultzsman]

eh eh eh. Yous guys done no nothin about nothin. I gots the goods an I hope yous keep lookin ha ha

 

[diggemall]

Your picture of the tree totally shoots down your theory. The fact that someone scraped bark and exposed relatively fresh wood on a tree that would have to be 75 or 80 years old, but has the size of one that is maybe 20 or 30 years old at the most, proves you wrong. Hardwoods can keep bark on them long after dying. Pines don't. For that tree to be genuine, it would have had to have died in the 1960's. You would not be able to scrape bark to get to fresh wood. Commonsense goes a long ways.

I usually sit quietly and let others do their battle, but I have to throw my two cents in on this one.

1) We have stands of Red Pines up here that are 70 years old, and have not reached 12" diameter yet.

2) Once felled, most evergreens last longer on the ground than hardwoods.

3) Trees grow both UP and OUT. The 1st couple "rings" in from the outside are live, everything inside of that is basically dead wood. If you want a carving to last, largely undistorted, cut away the living cambium layers, and carve into the older 'dead' heartwood.

I won't debate any of this with anyone, so don't waste your time or mine.

30-plus years of woodsman and woodworking experience makes for an inflexible "opinion"

Diggem'

 

[ZenAgain]

I'm pretty sure ya'll just got served.

 

[diggemall]

I'm pretty sure ya'll just got served.

LOL

I was up at my parents place this afternoon, and wished I had a camera with me: I walked through a stand of 500 white spruces my HS GF and I planted back in the spring of 1979 (precisely 30 years ago) and the largest of them was about 8-9 inches in diameter. Many, in the middle of the planting, were only about 4" diameter.

Diggem'

 

[GaBnn3]

I've agreed to accompany an interested TH'er to the site next month (June 2009). If anyone else want to go, e-mail me directly and we'll set it up. It will be some weekend day.

 

[NiagracountyNY]

That tree doesnt look big enough to be that old.Someone cut that and count the rings.also after u scar a pine it fills with sap real fast.grows around the wound and in a few years u cant tell what was wrote.

 

[pegleglooker]

bump

 

[Old Dog]

That tree doesnt look big enough to be that old.Someone cut that and count the rings.also after u scar a pine it fills with sap real fast.grows around the wound and in a few years u cant tell what was wrote.

Not so fast !
Here is an OLD pine with a blaze that has been on the tree for longer than I have been alive .