DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[sdcfia]

I note with interest the name "Starr" in the lower right hand corner of that map showing zig-zag levels of ladders descending....

Many of our "treasure legends" are well known in the media but are sorely lacking in verifiable evidence - and I don't mean hearsay, newspaper stories and family traditions. I guess that's why they're still legends and not acknowledged facts. Names are important when it comes to all these mystifying legends, especially peoples' names (real or assumed), and place names. It would be interesting to know why Noss chose "Starr" as his alter ego, since that name in OK is linked with numerous other outlaw treasure legends, either directly or by association. Huh ... maybe just a coincidence.

 

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[UncleMatt]

Perhaps these maps originated with Starr, in one way or another. It would be interesting to do an analysis on the maps themselves to see how old the material is they are on and what the ink itself might have to offer. For example, when some metal artifacts that were supposedly from Calalus had metallurgical analysis performed on them, it was found the lead they are formed from had a very modern origin. The same could be true of these maps...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good post Unc Matt, however you neglected to cover something important, which would apply to a docment which has through time has been copied many times on different materiels with a degrading effect each time. if not meticulosly followed. An excellent exanple is another lil map, which was first dug up in the ruins of a mission in the early 1900's,in a trunk full of documents How I would love to have access to the origionals, but only this survived through time and copying on varios materials, so it cannot be proven, if ever, but it still provided enough information to lead to a partially succesful conclusion - still working on it, but it's provenence is co and it's in ole Mexico, yet as NP mentioned, is freely shared ( of course I have an ace in the hole, I own the property and the treasure rights ).

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Np,That second map is fascinating. There is an increditabe amt of information there

 

[sdcfia]

Perhaps these maps originated with Starr, in one way or another. It would be interesting to do an analysis on the maps themselves to see how old the material is they are on and what the ink itself might have to offer. For example, when some metal artifacts that were supposedly from Calalus had metallurgical analysis performed on them, it was found the lead they are formed from had a very modern origin. The same could be true of these maps...

Forensic science is commonly used to date older documents, particularly in the art world where big money demands authenticity. Any of these so-called "treasure maps" could be dated, based on papers, inks, text style and language, but even if we know when a document was drawn up, that does not authenticate the subject matter on it.

That "lil map" is a good example. It purports to show information allegedly dating to the mid 17th century or earlier in Mexico. However, the map could not possibly have been drawn before the early 19th century when Pike named the Caballo Range, and it also has a very modern-appearing font style that looks to be possibly mid-20th century. Of course, the map may be an edited copy of a copy, but nonetheless, an original document contemporary to the alleged subject matter would add authenticity. For all we know, Noss had the thing drawn up in the 1940s to scam investors, as was his style.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC,you are perfectly correct in your thinking for say a ship,. bured Nazi loot, Ghengis Khan type of treasure,.but not for the type we are discussing.

You say that the lil map could be dated by varios methods if or origional materiels, but you hsve ignored the 1862 date plus who knows how mny years after before it was copied, it's copies we are dealing with.were discovered in the 1930's

Incidentally 1862 corresponds roughly to to the Gadson purchase period,, at which time the Caballos were put off bounds for the Jesuits..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC,I repeat, that lil map has Tayopa. which was a legend only until I rediscovered it in the 1990's It'''s location wasn't 'known' in Doc nos's time. Nos was incapable ofdrawing that map , it contains information that he never had accass to.

 

[sdcfia]

SDC,I repeat, that lil map has Tayopa. which was a legend only until I rediscovered it in the 1990's It'''s location wasn't 'known' in Doc nos's time. Nos was incapable ofdrawing that map , it contains information that he never had accass to.

How can you be certain of any of that?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi sdc, I couldn't until after I had found it, sill coming up with new data even today. No one had that data that I know of except posibly the Jesuits;

The Jeuits are masters of their trade / mission.

Even Fran Dpbie didn't really know when he wrote his book 'Apache Gold and Yaqui silver' in 1939.although he was close But that was long after Doc's time.

To my knowledge, there has never been any report of the Jesuit useing the Caballo mts as a storage area then with the information on the long trip down the 'Rio del Norte" rio Grande ) to a waiting Jesuit controlled ship. Until that time all traffic was considered to be by animal, a very daunting task..

No SDC, NP's lil maps gave me the answers to many questions, although I admit that I was very sceptical at first, but after analying them further I had to give in.

Whether they are origionals or copies, I have no way of knowing, but from the evidence presented by NP, I have to consider them as true and am in his debt.

 

[UncleMatt]

Good post Unc Matt, however you neglected to cover something important, which would apply to a docment which has through time has been copied many times on different materiels with a degrading effect each time. if not meticulosly followed. An excellent exanple is another lil map, which was first dug up in the ruins of a mission in the early 1900's,in a trunk full of documents How I would love to have access to the origionals, but only this survived through time and copying on varios materials, so it cannot be proven, if ever, but it still provided enough information to lead to a partially succesful conclusion - still working on it, but it's provenence is co and it's in ole Mexico, yet as NP mentioned, is freely shared ( of course I have an ace in the hole, I own the property and the treasure rights ).


View attachment 1320737

I wasn't referring to the content of the map, but the materials used to create it. For example, if this map could be analyzed and both the material and the ink were found to be hundreds of years old, that would be significant. If on the other hand it is found to date to the say the 1930's, that might at least give us a clue about when it was copied or created. Since we have so little information to go on these days, I think every clue must be wrung out of what we do have. The question is, would this map be available for such an analysis...

 

[UncleMatt]

Forensic science is commonly used to date older documents, particularly in the art world where big money demands authenticity. Any of these so-called "treasure maps" could be dated, based on papers, inks, text style and language, but even if we know when a document was drawn up, that does not authenticate the subject matter on it.

That "lil map" is a good example. It purports to show information allegedly dating to the mid 17th century or earlier in Mexico. However, the map could not possibly have been drawn before the early 19th century when Pike named the Caballo Range, and it also has a very modern-appearing font style that looks to be possibly mid-20th century. Of course, the map may be an edited copy of a copy, but nonetheless, an original document contemporary to the alleged subject matter would add authenticity. For all we know, Noss had the thing drawn up in the 1940s to scam investors, as was his style.

I agree with all of that. In my humble opinion such maps most likely have their origin from people who wanted to sell maps. Go to Apache Junction at the Superstition Mountain Museum and you can see dozens of "treasure maps". They are all over the internet. And many of them look good, show areas that people think they can identify, and "fill in blanks" that people want filled in. In the 1930's there was a treasure fad, just like in the 1960's. Lots of maps were created and published, and lots of treasure tales were spun. Many decades later their true origin is lost, and we are left with stories and maps that are most likely not going to lead anyone anywhere, and don't have anything reality based to educate us about. Of course, I would welcome it if an old map were to turn out to be genuine and actually lead to something. But so far, I don't think I have seen such a map.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, as I have pointed out the lil map was in the 1800's and presented facts that were theoretically known only to the Jesuits from the earlier periods, and certainly not by Doc Noss. In conjunction with the other documents it is very interesting and compeling evidence. It showed that indeed the Jesuits were stockpiling precious metal in the Caballo Mtns for the alleged insurrection. and in converse that the maps were probably genuine.

join me ?? ( in the coffe )

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with all of that. In my humble opinion such maps most likely have their origin from people who wanted to sell maps. Go to Apache Junction at the Superstition Mountain Museum and you can see dozens of "treasure maps". They are all over the internet. And many of them look good, show areas that people think they can identify, and "fill in blanks" that people want filled in. In the 1930's there was a treasure fad, just like in the 1960's. Lots of maps were created and published, and lots of treasure tales were spun. Many decades later their true origin is lost, and we are left with stories and maps that are most likely not going to lead anyone anywhere, and don't have anything reality based to educate us about. Of course, I would welcome it if an old map were to turn out to be genuine and actually lead to something. But so far, I don't think I have seen such a map.

Good points all. In the 1930s (and even before), there were people with lots of gold coins who needed a way to sidestep the long-anticipated legislation finally enacted by FDR that made it illegal to possess US gold coins or certified bullion. The coins were melted down and recast into crude bullion bars. Because of the uncertainty in the US economy and the expected devaluation of the US dollar (increase in the value of gold), the owners desired to illegally hoard the crude bullion bars. They created numerous "cave of gold bars" treasure tales and such, then released them to the public via newspaper articles, magazine articles, local rumors, "discovered documents", etc. This is why so many treasure legends POOF! surfaced in the 30s.

These fabricated treasure tales established a phony "history" for the existence of the gold they were holding, so that if and when they decided later to unearth the bullion, they had options available that would benefit them. First, they could rightfully claim a "treasure trove recovery" based on the existing laws in the state where the gold was hidden (whether it was physically hidden there or not). They also had the option of blending the bullion through legitimate mining companies (which they may have owned or influenced). They could also sell the bullion to foreign agents. Either way, they profited from the dollar devaluation, which increased the value of gold from 20 to 35 US dollars per ounce - and they were dealing in safer untraceable bullion, not highly identifiable US coinage.

Their fabricated treasure tales established a location, provided participants' names (real or phony), landmarks (real or phony) and enough other detail to sound convincing. Their bullion may even have been hidden in the legend's vicinity, but of course in a place unattainable for any searchers who accepted the tale at face value. Here we are, now 80 years or more later, and people are still searching for these things. Well, who knows, maybe some of the caches are still there. And the "treasure maps"? Why does anyone, even the most gullible, believe there is any reason that a genuine map capable of leading him to a hidden treasure could possibly become available to the public? Go figure.

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's, most of the questions being asked about the lil map and the other two documents were already answered farther back in this thread, just to save speculation,I explained everything about them the best I could, It's hard enough for me to type anything, so I try not repeating myself. thanks. NP

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

NP, ya don't have to explain anything. I am the one that has to explain them as genuine due to my association with Tayopa which was a main contributor to those deposits - which are not ficticious .

I agree with the proliforation of misc maps, but these do not fall into that catagory, they have solid facts behind them, that information was not avilable to anyone but the Jesuits, and of course recently to me.

Keep em coming NP yer earning yer coffee


Sdc, the main problem with your melting cold coins down to form bars lies in the need to identify the actaul gold content at whcih time they would be identified as coin metal
leading to very interesting questions. I agree they 'could' throw in a few Metals found normaly in Gold but -----there still remains the law?

 

[whiskeyrat]

Amigo's, most of the questions being asked about the lil map and the other two documents were already answered farther back in this thread, just to save speculation,I explained everything about them the best I could, It's hard enough for me to type anything, so I try not repeating myself. thanks. NP

NP:
Did you yourself see the 30 inch x 30 inch original "lil map" printed on the thin silk like material?
Or have you only seen the picture of it which you have posted on here?
thanks
wr

 

[Not Peralta]

NP:
Did you yourself see the 30 inch x 30 inch original "lil map" printed on the thin silk like material?
Or have you only seen the picture of it which you have posted on here?
thanks
wr

Amigo,please read my last posting about this,np

 

[sdcfia]

Sdc, the main problem with your melting cold coins down to form bars lies in the need to identify the actaul gold content at whcih time they would be identified as coin metal leading to very interesting questions. I agree they 'could' throw in a few Metals found normaly in Gold but -----there still remains the law?

I'll stand by my Post #2602 in its entirety. People who are capable enough to possess gold in quantity are also capable enough to avoid laws that don't benefit them. It's time to realize how the real world works.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I agree with you SDC, "or have the resources". but most of those maps you referred to were not genuine nor had the connections or finances. And yes, I am fully aware just how the real world works.

 

[mdog]

Good points all. In the 1930s (and even before), there were people with lots of gold coins who needed a way to sidestep the long-anticipated legislation finally enacted by FDR that made it illegal to possess US gold coins or certified bullion. The coins were melted down and recast into crude bullion bars. Because of the uncertainty in the US economy and the expected devaluation of the US dollar (increase in the value of gold), the owners desired to illegally hoard the crude bullion bars. They created numerous "cave of gold bars" treasure tales and such, then released them to the public via newspaper articles, magazine articles, local rumors, "discovered documents", etc. This is why so many treasure legends POOF! surfaced in the 30s.

These fabricated treasure tales established a phony "history" for the existence of the gold they were holding, so that if and when they decided later to unearth the bullion, they had options available that would benefit them. First, they could rightfully claim a "treasure trove recovery" based on the existing laws in the state where the gold was hidden (whether it was physically hidden there or not). They also had the option of blending the bullion through legitimate mining companies (which they may have owned or influenced). They could also sell the bullion to foreign agents. Either way, they profited from the dollar devaluation, which increased the value of gold from 20 to 35 US dollars per ounce - and they were dealing in safer untraceable bullion, not highly identifiable US coinage.

Their fabricated treasure tales established a location, provided participants' names (real or phony), landmarks (real or phony) and enough other detail to sound convincing. Their bullion may even have been hidden in the legend's vicinity, but of course in a place unattainable for any searchers who accepted the tale at face value. Here we are, now 80 years or more later, and people are still searching for these things. Well, who knows, maybe some of the caches are still there. And the "treasure maps"? Why does anyone, even the most gullible, believe there is any reason that a genuine map capable of leading him to a hidden treasure could possibly become available to the public? Go figure.

Great post, Sdcfia. Very few treasure researchers look at the really big picture and how some of these treasure legends relate to each other in time, locations and characters. Here's a link that may illustrate parts of the scenario you describe in your post.

https://library.indstate.edu/about/units/rbsc/neff/PDFs/stevenson_olaughlin.pdf