disputing what you may believe about California TRESPASS LAWS

[geolover]

Last week I got a few replies/warnings about trespassing on other peoples' property, so I checked things out for myself. In CA, IN GENERAL, there are three levels of trespass. An infraction, which I am mostly talking about. A misdemeanour (criminal trespass), which includes taking soil, rocks, etc, but mostly about not leaving after being asked. And aggravated" (felony) trespass.
First I read about what defines a misdemeanour. Basically occupying a property, not leaving after being asked, taking items including soil-rocks, passing through a fence or no trespassing signs (properly displayed).

Here is the legal definition of trespass (at the infraction level): California Penal Code Section 602.8 (a) Any person who without the written permission of the landowner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession of the land, willfully enters any lands under cultivation or enclosed by fence, belonging to, or occupied by, another, or who willfully enters upon uncultivated or unenclosed lands where signs forbidding trespass are displayed at intervals not less than three to the mile along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the lands, is guilty of a public offense.
(b) Any person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a) shall be punished as follows:
(1) A first offense is an infraction punishable by a fine of seventy-five dollars ($75).
- See more at: California Penal Code - PEN § 602.8 | FindLaw California Criminal Trespass & Trespassing Laws | Penal Code 602 PC

The land I'm talking about is uncultivated, not fenced, and does not have signage (three to a mile). As a matter of fact, there are no signs on most of these properties, and is not occupied, just wide open space. I'm not taking anything, just hiking, checking things out like the mind shaft that I found. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...ula-ca-vail-lake-i-found-something-today.html

Obviously, people are going to challenge my interpretation of PC 602. But if you are, please provide specific CA law. It's not that I have to be right or that I challenge everything people tell me. This is how I learn, I don't just take someone's word or advice and apply it, I research it for myself. I remember researching this a while back when I was curious about protecting my 20 acres.

So let the conversation begin, maybe you'll bring up a good point to debunk my beliefs. Good chance I'll learn something either way.



Closely Associated Crimes with Criminal Trespass include:
PC 601(a) Trespass - threat of serious bodily injury;
PC 602(a) Trespass - remove timber of another;
PC 602(c) Trespass - injure or sever produce
PC 602(d) Trespass - remove soil or stone
PC 602(e) Trespass - dig/remove stone of street
PC 602(f) Trespass - damage/destroy highway sign
PC 602(h)(1) Trespass - injure farm animal
PC 602(i) Trespass - damage fence/gate/signboard
PC 602(k) Trespass - intent to interfere with business
PC 602(m) Trespass - enter & occupy property
PC 602(n) Trespass - drive vehicle on private property
PC 602(p) Trespass - enter closed lands
PC 602((q) Trespass - refuse or fail to leave building
PC 602(r) Trespass - ski in closed area
PC 602(s) Trespass - refuse to leave hotel/motel
PC 602(t) Trespass - enter or refuse to leave property
PC 602(w) Trespass - refuse to leave women's shelter
PC 602(x)(2)(c) Trespass - maternity ward
PC 602.5(a) Trespass - unauthorized entry of dwelling
PC 602.8(a) Trespass - fenced area or posted land
PC 602.13 Trespass enter into animal enclosure at zoo
PC 602.9(b) unlawful renting of residential dwelling
PC 602.10 Obstruct teacher/student at college

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

If you do not have permission to be there your trespassing, it isn't public property and it isn't your property...

 

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[geolover]

Geo: Although you've posted up the legal definitions of trespassing,
I still don't see you're point.

You want to access property that is owned by an individual, and now
you're trying to find ways to justify doing so. Is it your goal just to see
if you can get away with it? With all due respect, that's what foolish
teenagers do, but by the time were adults we're supposed to know
better.

There is no profit in all this...it wastes your time and benefits no one.

You make some good points, I was kinda asking myself the same thing earlier. What's my point? I think It's mostly about proof checking what people say, we believe and pass on information just because someone else told us. After all, they seem intelligent or credible. Previously I had researched the law in connection with protecting my own property. So it struck me as incorrect when people tried to warn me while using their interpretation of the law. So I researched it again, it's what I do, I learn by questioning things that I'm not sure about.
As far as trying to see what I can get away with, no it's not about that. I must live in a special area, no one seems to object to me hiking around. People wave, ask if I broke down, ask if I found anything interesting (i like rocks). So I'll continue to venture about, I won't take my detector because I don't want to give prospectors a bad name.

 

[Anduril]

I was rummaging around your garage last night when I noticed you hadn't posted the required signs.

There is a big difference between criminal trespass and civil trespass. That was the point of my previous post.

If you don't believe that someone can commit trespass without the property being properly marked I'll meet you in your backyard in about 8 minutes. I'll be the one in the black clothing, most of the rest of the people here are wearing street clothes. K?

Heavy Pans

I understand your point. I think you are still missing mine. (?)

Let's agree to not confuse burglary (in some states, "breaking and entering") with trespass.

Let's also agree that, by definition, my residential garage is not "vacant or unimproved" private land. (It is the exact opposite!)
Because, that really is the crux of the distinction being made.

California Penal Code - PEN § 602.2 | FindLaw is short enough to just copy it verbatim:

"Any ordinance or resolution adopted by a county which requires written permission to enter vacant or unimproved private land from either the owner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession of private land, shall not apply unless the land is immediately adjacent and contiguous to residential property, or enclosed by fence, or under cultivation, or posted with signs forbidding trespass, displayed at intervals of not less than three to a mile, along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the private land."

I'm not an attorney, but to me, this language could not be more clear.
It literally says written permission is not required.
(We could argue about "oral" permission, though I suspect you are indeed trespassing, even in this instance, once you are asked to leave and don't comply).

That said, 602-2 does not grant a license for individuals to freely access vacant or unimproved property.
It merely states that any ordinance (i.e., one against trespassing) isn't valid unless the landowner fences it, posts it, or cultivates it.

...unless I am missing something?

 

[Reed Lukens]

So you're looking for basically someone here on the forum to agree with you that you can trespass and it's not working. Every logical person here is saying NO. Even if the guy owns 40 acres square that's 1310 fee per side. What are your chances of seeing his signs that are posted on the corners? (One sign on each corner makes your 3 per mile easily) Basically there's not much of a chance of finding any sign in the woods, he probably has them posted at the entrance as well but if you don't want to see the signs, you walk in a different way. The fact is, it's still trespassing. It is improved land because it has a mine on it and probably even a road. Does a road or a mine not count as improving the land? After 9/11 the government put armed security guards everywhere, they told us to put up a fence around the entrance with razor wire on top, a camera system, told us that the fence had to go 100 feet away from the gate on both sides, and gave us a date to comply by and we did. They told us to protect our land from trespassers or terrorists and we do. Knowing that I have done everything that I can to keep trespassers out, because I have been told to by our government, what am I supposed to do with people like you, who are purposely looking to skirt the law and enter private property where you have no permission to be? As a land owner, I feel that it's my duty to follow what I have been told to do by the government and protect this land.
Unfortunately for the trespasser... the signs tell end of the story.

 

[IMPDLN]

Have you tried looking up the definition in a dictionary of the word "trespassing". It clearly states entering a persons land without permission. Legal definitions just expand on that, but they don't alter the definition. Posted or not for many reasons trespassing is not a wise thing to do no matter what the current conditions on the actual property are. There are many possible legal conflicts that can be the result of trespassing.

We had an issue where I live that a man was shot to death by a property owner. That man only trespassed to retrieve his dog. The property owner is in jail for man slaughter and the other man is dead. Too many details can affect the outcome of trespassing situations.

The fact remains, signs or not, private property is private. Entering private property without permission knowingly is certainly NOT ok and can get you in trouble.

A person walking down a trail in a national forest could certainly enter private property without knowing they have entered private property if there are no signs or anything to indicate such and would certainly be considered unintentional. To knowingly enter private property without permission would be looked at as showing intent and would certainly be considered trespass.

You can try to turn this around in your mind all you want, but I suggest you present your query to a lawyer or judge with experience in trespassing cases and see what they say about your question. I believe you will find trespass is trespass when you knowingly do it without permission. Dennis

 

[russau]

Reed are you trying to tell us something??

 

[russau]

I understand your point. I think you are still missing mine. (?)

Let's agree to not confuse burglary (in some states, "breaking and entering") with trespass.

Let's also agree that, by definition, my residential garage is not "vacant or unimproved" private land. (It is the exact opposite!)
Because, that really is the crux of the distinction being made.

California Penal Code - PEN § 602.2 | FindLaw is short enough to just copy it verbatim:

"Any ordinance or resolution adopted by a county which requires written permission to enter vacant or unimproved private land from either the owner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession of private land, shall not apply unless the land is immediately adjacent and contiguous to residential property, or enclosed by fence, or under cultivation, or posted with signs forbidding trespass, displayed at intervals of not less than three to a mile, along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the private land."

I'm not an attorney, but to me, this language could not be more clear.
It literally says written permission is not required.
(We could argue about "oral" permission, though I suspect you are indeed trespassing, even in this instance, once you are asked to leave and don't comply).

That said, 602-2 does not grant a license for individuals to freely access vacant or unimproved property.
It merely states that any ordinance (i.e., one against trespassing) isn't valid unless the landowner fences it, posts it, or cultivates it.

...unless I am missing something?

I truly understand this point of view!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CA Gold Hunter]

Ya I don't understand the issue? If this land is public property then go play, if not then you need to find the land owner and ask permission. Laws or not if you trespass and the owner catches you, chances are you'll end up on the wrong side of a gun, doesn't sound like a fun situation for either party.

 

[Anduril]

Ya I don't understand the issue? If this land is public property then go play, if not then you need to find the land owner and ask permission. Laws or not if you trespass and the owner catches you, chances are you'll end up on the wrong side of a gun, doesn't sound like a fun situation for either party.

Just to clarify: The prohibition against trespass does not hinge on whether the land is public or private.
You can, in fact, be cited for trespass on public lands in several scenarios. (We can discuss if needed.)

What matters, in the situation being discussed here, is whether the vacant or unimproved private land meets certain criteria for an ordinance against trespass on it to be valid.
If it doesn't, then by law, there's legally no way for a trespass to occur. If it does, then you are quite possibly screwed.

Of course to your point, in the heat of the moment, private landowners may not care about these pesky legal details!
No argument there.

 

[geolover]

I understand your point. I think you are still missing mine. (?)

Let's agree to not confuse burglary (in some states, "breaking and entering") with trespass.

Let's also agree that, by definition, my residential garage is not "vacant or unimproved" private land. (It is the exact opposite!)
Because, that really is the crux of the distinction being made.

California Penal Code - PEN § 602.2 | FindLaw is short enough to just copy it verbatim:

"Any ordinance or resolution adopted by a county which requires written permission to enter vacant or unimproved private land from either the owner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession of private land, shall not apply unless the land is immediately adjacent and contiguous to residential property, or enclosed by fence, or under cultivation, or posted with signs forbidding trespass, displayed at intervals of not less than three to a mile, along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the private land."

I'm not an attorney, but to me, this language could not be more clear.
It literally says written permission is not required.
(We could argue about "oral" permission, though I suspect you are indeed trespassing, even in this instance, once you are asked to leave and don't comply).

That said, 602-2 does not grant a license for individuals to freely access vacant or unimproved property.
It merely states that any ordinance (i.e., one against trespassing) isn't valid unless the landowner fences it, posts it, or cultivates it.

...unless I am missing something?

"isn't valid unless the landowner fences it, posts it, or cultivates it." Finally, we agree! Now let's go find some gold!

 

[geolover]

Just to clarify: The prohibition against trespass does not hinge on whether the land is public or private.
You can, in fact, be cited for trespass on public lands in several scenarios. (We can discuss if needed.)

What matters, in the situation being discussed here, is whether the vacant or unimproved private land meets certain criteria for an ordinance against trespass on it to be valid.
If it doesn't, then by law, there's legally no way for a trespass to occur. If it does, then you are quite possibly screwed.

Of course to your point, in the heat of the moment, private landowners may not care about these pesky legal details!
No argument there.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I simply wanted to dissect and understand the law. Now let's go find some gold!

 

[geolover]

I truly understand this point of view!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me too!

 

[winners58]

who owns the land? could be other restrictions if its state trust lands or restrictions in a land use plan.
or they have just had problems with people tearing things up and wish to restrict access.
find out who or what kind of property it is, if its close to a dam/reservoir it could be USACE or something like that.
It may not be just simple trespass laws, Due diligence and respect others property...
may be something as simple as walking into an office and asking for an access pass.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

What matters is "is the land private owned", if it is owned you need their permission...

 

[nh.nugget]

We've got some messed up laws like that here in NH. Almost all land is private the State say's get permission in writing. No matter what trail riding, mining, skies the limit. But if you're on private land and it's not posted every 50' all the way around the boundery all they can do legally is ask you to leave. They cannot have you arrested for trespassing.

 

[geolover]

We've got some messed up laws like that here in NH. Almost all land is private the State say's get permission in writing. No matter what trail riding, mining, skies the limit. But if you're on private land and it's not posted every 50' all the way around the boundary all they can do legally is ask you to leave. They cannot have you arrested for trespassing.

That's pretty much what I'm saying about CA. All you have to do is read the law or penal code that I posted to start this discussion. I'm not even saying that the law is correct or that I agree with it, actually as a land owner I am shocked. I agree with most peoples' opinion, especially about being respectful toward your neighbors, but that's not what this was supposed to be about. Just the understanding the law.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'm thinking the California Constitution is law geolover. The RIGHT to privacy is pretty fundamental in law.
Heavy Pans

Good Lord is there a comprehension problem here? Criminal law and civil law are two different things. Private property is one of the key foundations of the United States and the States. What's not to understand here?

If it's not yours stay out!

https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/2000/2000.html

http://www.lectlaw.com/mjl/to011.htm

California schools! Yes you are "special"... now get over it.

 

[Tony_agr]

Curious, could you be charged with trespass on your own property if you don't own the mineral rights?, I wonder how that is enforced?

 

[Jason in Enid]

You could be charged with mineral and property theft!

 

[nh.nugget]

Glad the only thing I have for minerals is ledge! LOL! And you can have all you want of that.