Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powells reply

[MKnTenn]

Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powell's reply

I just got this buckle today in the mail. I've seen one before but I can't seem to remember where. Please let me know if you can date it, it was dug at a site had pre Civil War, Civil War, and WW1 relics in it. It's solid cast brass. Thanks and HH - UPDATE - I got a reply from Mr. Powell --

All I can tell you is that it is a Spanish naval officer's dirk or
ceremonial waist belt buckle of the Napoleonic period (ca. 1800-1815). I
have seen a few variations of this, but they are all very similar and yours
is about the best one I've seen. The wreath or collar surrounding your
anchored tongue is normally plain on the ones I've seen; yours has four
raised bars on it, which differentiates it from the others I've encountered.
Unfortunately, the Spanish haven't done the kinds of in-depth material
culture related research that we Americans and other nations have done over
the years, and so information about these items is very difficult to obtain.

I appreciate all the help but in the end it's a "date unknown".
I bought this buckle to resale, it sold on Ebay for 126.00.
That's for anyone that wants to know what one sold for, to put in their records.
Thanks again and HH

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I wonder when the life preserver was invented

Ok, can't believe what I did.

The pictures are very big on my screen, so much so that you have to scroll, which I didn't and assumed it was a loose piece that somehow snapped over the buckle that I posted. Only now do I see it is an entirely different buckle, so my post is probably confusing a lot of people and making their heads shake. Now seeing it correctly I think it possibly dating later could make sense... or maybe the same era and just a different rank? Pics should be sent to John Powell, he'd be the likely one to answer the question. The good news is I have never seen this one. (was a few of the other type)

You had me wondering bud!!

Regardless that is still a RARE and dang nice piece!!!It would fit very nicely in my collection,even it did end up being "LATER"?

Glad you made that last comment because it's what got me to look closer. I also agree it's good either way and it's not like too many people would throw away a Spanish Naval buckle dating to the CW (if it does) and found on such a site.... well no one except a guy on ebay.

 

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[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks for the replies, i'm going to send some pics to John Powell soon as i get time and get some more info from the seller, he did say he had found 50+ buckles and 100+ tokens plus buttons, bullets, and other relics. He's counting ANY buckle he finds, that includes suspender and horse buckles so i don't know how many plates he has found but i'm waiting for an answer to see if he has found any more of the navy buckles. I'll post his answer on here when i find out. What a awesome site he has! UPDATE he said he didn't find any navy buckles today.

 

[ynpto804]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I dont want to be rude but can I ask how much you paid for that? If not then don't reply. Just wondering.

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I dont want to be rude but can I ask how much you paid for that? If not then don't reply. Just wondering.

No problem, He gave it away at, $12.50 that included postage. I feel sorry for the guy. HH

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I dont want to be rude but can I ask how much you paid for that? If not then don't reply. Just wondering.

No problem, He gave it away at, $12.50 that included postage. I feel sorry for the guy. HH

Don't. It happens every day and that's just how it goes when people sell without knowing what the have. I've been on both sides of that fence and losing money early on was a great lesson in patience, and I'm much better off now having been through it. In addition, people overpay every day for stuff and I guarantee the seller never feels sympathy... they just laugh and accept the money.

I can't imagine the buckle would be worth anymore than a few hundred at most, and maybe that's just to the right person, so not like he gave away a ticket to the good life.

 

[grasshopper]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Here's the other post some of you have been talking about...a similar one was found by Hogge.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,258193.msg1845580.html#msg1845580

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I guess I did see similar before. The one in a couple of the pictures in that thread is very small.

I'd say John Powell will know what they are so should have an answer soon.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Looks like you can still find a 'bargin' on eBay these days!

Great find MK!
Dave

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

.....again not to down grade this awesome(second known complete example)but I think this "experts",time frame is way off on his dates.There is nothing in its construction that says thats the time frame this buckle is from.Also the "life preserver",wreath....I have never noticed a 1700's Spanish ship sporting a Life Preserver?.............who am I though?

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

.....again not to down grade this awesome(second known complete example)but I think this "experts",time frame is way off on his dates.There is nothing in its construction that says thats the time frame this buckle is from.Also the "life preserver",wreath....I have never noticed a 1700's Spanish ship sporting a Life Preserver?.............who am I though?

I think there's a chance both types date close to CW and the non wreath one is not dated properly.

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

.....again not to down grade this awesome(second known complete example)but I think this "experts",time frame is way off on his dates.There is nothing in its construction that says thats the time frame this buckle is from.Also the "life preserver",wreath....I have never noticed a 1700's Spanish ship sporting a Life Preserver?.............who am I though?

I guess they had some kind of life preserver back then but i don't recall seeing donuts on the side of 1700's ships either, LMAO I'm not so sure about the age now but i like it and will post any answer i get from Mr. Powell.

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I like it too!I will anxiously await the answer.
I bought a cast brass tongue last year that featured an anchor(there is the same one with wreath on E-Bay right now)that supposedly came from the gold fields of Australia.It had the same type of bridge/center disc attachement type on the back as this one in question.I was told it was later (1870's+)and kind of confirmed that looking at other "later",examples with the same.I again looked through both Odonnels and Kerksis' books last night to see if there was any early backs like that and dint see any.Two piece buckles are my "thing",and I have seen a couple,but am always open to learn new things!!

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Sent the email to Mr. Powell, let you know what he says.

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

No reply from Mr. Powell, Thanks for the help guys. HH

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I wonder when the life preserver was invented

I think the life ring or "Kisbie's Life-buoy" on this buckle tells the story. Kisbie's have their origin in the mid 19th century.

DCMatt

 

[treasurehound]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Nice. Very nice. I would love to hear more about this awesome buckle.

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powell's reply

John Powell's reply is at the top of the page, thanks again for all the info Tnet members!

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powell's reply

Very interesting.All I can say is the back is unique from all other "early",tongues Awesome piece at a great deal!!

 

[allen]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powell's reply

That is a really neat design and will look great in a display !!!

 

[CC Hunter]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powell's reply

The complete tongue and matching wreath for this small cast anchor Tongue & Wreath buckle is a rare item indeed. Over the years I have seen photos of several of those buckle tongues, yet never the wreaths. I'm not quite certain where the provenance for attributing these to Spanish origin nor early nineteenth century is well founded, nor even as a buckle from a naval dirk belt. In the mid-nineteenth century, Tongue & Wreath buckles of every size, shape, and description, were all the rage. Several years ago I began collecting Daguerreotype and Ambrotype images of women and children wearing belts with two-piece Tongue & Wreath buckles. The variety is almost endless for this fashion fad.

From my recollection, there was a tongue found in Pensacola Florida, one in San Francisco, another in the central USA, and a few more in random areas. The one from San Francisco was I believe in a photo of mostly Turn-of-the Century items (the 1899-1900 turn, rather than the century before....... ). In fact, not one single buckle tongue I have seen, was shown to be in context with early 1800's artifacts. Through our network, Kuger and myself have had the opportunity to see literally thousands of military and civilian two-piece buckles, dating from the 1840's on through the post-Civil War era. That small cast anchor has been absent from even some of the most extensive collections.

This particular style of small cast brass anchor buckle, appears to be very well made, unlike many of the earlier styles of cast buckles we see. My impression of this buckle is likely later Victorian era, based on recovered examples as well as construction details. 1880's could be a probable era. However, we could in fact toss a couple decades either way at this point, and possibly not be far off mark either. Since the style and design is not a very close match to any known American made two-piece buckles of the era, a foreign heritage is certainly a valid option. Considering that ships of nearly every nation on Earth, both military and civilian, have frequently docked at our ports since the founding of our country, lends a broader scope of potential heritage for this little mystery buckle. 8)

CC Hunter