Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powells reply

[MKnTenn]

Date this 2 piece Navy buckle - UPDATE- John Powell's reply

I just got this buckle today in the mail. I've seen one before but I can't seem to remember where. Please let me know if you can date it, it was dug at a site had pre Civil War, Civil War, and WW1 relics in it. It's solid cast brass. Thanks and HH - UPDATE - I got a reply from Mr. Powell --

All I can tell you is that it is a Spanish naval officer's dirk or
ceremonial waist belt buckle of the Napoleonic period (ca. 1800-1815). I
have seen a few variations of this, but they are all very similar and yours
is about the best one I've seen. The wreath or collar surrounding your
anchored tongue is normally plain on the ones I've seen; yours has four
raised bars on it, which differentiates it from the others I've encountered.
Unfortunately, the Spanish haven't done the kinds of in-depth material
culture related research that we Americans and other nations have done over
the years, and so information about these items is very difficult to obtain.

I appreciate all the help but in the end it's a "date unknown".
I bought this buckle to resale, it sold on Ebay for 126.00.
That's for anyone that wants to know what one sold for, to put in their records.
Thanks again and HH

 

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[CRUSADER]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I know nothing about these, but the anchor looks more fashion than military

 

[mainer]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Kuger is the man when it comes to those buckles, He could tell you all about it. PM him if he doesn't respond to this posting.

P.S. That is an awesome buckle.

 

[Green1]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I've been gone a while. Is Buckle-boy still here.. ? He would know..

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Mainer.....my first impression is 1880's(that type of back on the tongue,where the bridge meets the belt loop/center piece) BUT there is a web site(http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm) that has just the tongue which they date much earlier.That would make the one of the earliest known two piece buckles.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Mainer.....my first impression is 1880's(that type of back on the tongue,where the bridge meets the belt loop/center piece) BUT there is a web site(http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm) that has just the tongue which was recovered from a 1700's ship wreck.That would make the one of the earliest known two piece buckles.

Looks like the patina would warrant that date to

SS

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Mainer.....my first impression is 1880's(that type of back on the tongue,where the bridge meets the belt loop/center piece) BUT there is a web site(http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm) that has just the tongue which was recovered from a 1700's ship wreck.That would make the one of the earliest known two piece buckles.

Looks like the patina would warrant that date to

SS

Which date Colin?
I must say,I do beleive that is the first complete example I recall seeing?I have seen several tongues

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Mainer.....my first impression is 1880's(that type of back on the tongue,where the bridge meets the belt loop/center piece) BUT there is a web site(http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm) that has just the tongue which was recovered from a 1700's ship wreck.That would make the one of the earliest known two piece buckles.

Looks like the patina would warrant that date to

SS

Which date Colin?
I must say,I do beleive that is the first complete example I recall seeing?I have seen several tongues

1880's and it looks to be made from Brass.

SS

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Mainer.....my first impression is 1880's(that type of back on the tongue,where the bridge meets the belt loop/center piece) BUT there is a web site(http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm) that has just the tongue which was recovered from a 1700's ship wreck.That would make the one of the earliest known two piece buckles.

Looks like the patina would warrant that date to

SS

Which date Colin?
I must say,I do beleive that is the first complete example I recall seeing?I have seen several tongues

1880's and it looks to be made from Brass.

SS

....that style back is 1880's on all other types of these buckles?

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Don't know what to say, kinda freaking. Thank you Kuger you are the best, I owe you one. I got it off eBay.This is what was in the description, Nice assortment of Buckles I recently found while metal detecting at an old plantation site in Donaldsonville, Louisiana. Some may be Civil War, But I'm not sure. In one of his other auctions he states he had found 3 ringers with Civil War buttons. One of his auctions had pre Civil War eagle "D" buttons with the skinny eagle. This is the only matching wreath I've seen, and it looks like a ship's donut life preserver. Thanks!

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Don't know what to say, kinda freaking. Thank you Kuger you are the best, I owe you one. I got it off eBay.This is what was in the description, Nice assortment of Buckles I recently found while metal detecting at an old plantation site in Donaldsonville, Louisiana. Some may be Civil War, But I'm not sure. In one of his other auctions he states he had found 3 ringers with Civil War buttons. One of his auctions had pre Civil War eagle "D" buttons with the skinny eagle. This is the only matching wreath I've seen, and it looks like a life preserver. Thanks!

Thanks for the "Thanks",thats a rare commodity around here anymore!!
I had to correct my reply on the link....it was not recovered from a shipwreck

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Never seen a complete one! Bet you got a deal.

While none are known to have been recovered from shipwreck sites, this small and delicately fashioned Spanish naval buckle form is believed to have been used on a belt from which was suspended a dirk or dagger for formal, ceremonial, and off-duty use by Spanish naval and marine officers. Only the tongue components of this tongue-and-wreath interlocking buckle typology have thus far been reported. At least some of these cuprous buckles were originally plated with a faux silver white metal alloy. Examples have been recovered at Spanish occupation sites at Gálveztown, Louisiana and Pensacola, Florida. The anchor device embellishing the tongue is very similar to that which adorns both the anchor badge from the wrecksite of El Cazador (shown above) and the anchors included in the design of the 1802 pattern Spanish naval military buttons shown in the marked button section of this website. The dates of manufacture and use of this and other examples of the type are tentatively assigned to the ca. 1790-1810 period.


http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Mainer.....my first impression is 1880's(that type of back on the tongue,where the bridge meets the belt loop/center piece) BUT there is a web site(http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm) that has just the tongue which was recovered from a 1700's ship wreck.That would make the one of the earliest known two piece buckles.

Looks like the patina would warrant that date to

SS

Which date Colin?
I must say,I do beleive that is the first complete example I recall seeing?I have seen several tongues

I didn't read either of your replies before posting. First complete I'm aware of too... and probably seen three others total. Maybe just one other that was near complete. A couple were probably just the anchor side. I don't think there's any question they are early.

 

[deathhare]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Sounding like this could be worth some real $.
Can an ebay score make the banner?

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Iron Patch, I thought I had seen a tongue before but couldn't remember anything about it. It was listed wrong and I got it for almost nothing. Thanks to all.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

Thanks Iron Patch, I thought I had seen a tongue before but couldn't remember anything about it. It was listed wrong and I got it for almost nothing. Thanks to all.

There is one posted on this site and if you do a search you might be able to come up with it, because it was ID'ed.

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I wonder when the life preserver was invented

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

What a beautiful looking buckle~! I don't think I have seen a complete one before

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I wonder when the life preserver was invented

Ok, can't believe what I did.

The pictures are very big on my screen, so much so that you have to scroll, which I didn't and assumed it was a loose piece that somehow snapped over the buckle that I posted. Only now scrolling across all the way to the right do I see it is an entirely different buckle, so my post is probably confusing a lot of people and making their heads shake. Now seeing it correctly I think it possibly dating later could make sense... or maybe the same era and just a different rank? ... don't know.Pics should be sent to John Powell, he'd be the likely one to answer the question. The good news is I have never seen this one. (was a few of the other type)

 

[kuger]

Re: Date this 2 piece Navy buckle

I wonder when the life preserver was invented

Ok, can't believe what I did.

The pictures are very big on my screen, so much so that you have to scroll, which I didn't and assumed it was a loose piece that somehow snapped over the buckle that I posted. Only now do I see it is an entirely different buckle, so my post is probably confusing a lot of people and making their heads shake. Now seeing it correctly I think it possibly dating later could make sense... or maybe the same era and just a different rank? Pics should be sent to John Powell, he'd be the likely one to answer the question. The good news is I have never seen this one. (was a few of the other type)

You had me wondering bud!!

Regardless that is still a RARE and dang nice piece!!!It would fit very nicely in my collection,even it did end up being "LATER"?