Crude bronze or brass dagger- antique, or 20th century shop project?

scaupus

Hero Member
Apr 20, 2011
888
523
Not too far from a beach
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I found this item buried in the ground about 5" deep while metal detecting in my dad's yard. He had no idea it was there or where it came from - he's owned the home since 1977, it was built in 1925; before 1923 it was a tropical forest on the Miami Ridge about one mile south of the mouth of the Miami River (florida). Mary Brickell cleared the area, put in roads and electric street lighting in 1923 and gave the whole area, about a square mile, to the city of miami, calling it "Brickell Hammock" but it's been known as The Roads since the road grid does not match the rest of the city. The area was very lightly inhabited sporadically before the 1890's, panthers still roamed the ridge at that time. Before the 1890s there had been some Bahamians, a few squatters, Seminole Indians (2nd and to a lesser degree, the 3rd Seminole wars caused the population of Biscayne Shore as it was known then, to evacuate en mass), US Army was at Fort Dallas on the north shore of the Miami River; there were planters at various times; and on a few occasions, there were the Spanish going back to first discovery, from 1516 until 1744. I nicked the metal and it is gold colored under the "patina.", indicating to me it is probably bronze. It looks to me like bronze bar stock or brazing rods possibly. I wonder if the white patches are leached out lead. My dad thinks it predates the house. He's 88 and he owns a chopping knife that his grandfather smithed sometime before the turn of the 20th century, and he thinks someone similarly made this dagger using a fire, anvil, hammer, and grinder, motivated by the need for a weapon, rather than a later 20th century person making a project knife. Bronze can be worked at a lower temperature than steel, and is quite hard, but brittle compared to weapon steel. I should mention that the edges are sharp. I'm trying to learn more about the previous inhabitants, but all I know is that it wasn't made by the people who sold the house to my dad. The original owner was a woman who founded a garden club and planted the gardens around the house (which really interfere with my artifact hunting). I don't know yet if there were any other inhabitants. The blade is bent and the tip broken. There are grindstone or belt-sanding striations - I don't know which, though everywhere except the inside of the rods in the tang area. The thought occurred to me that it may have been made to keep aboard a boat -bronze would be corrosion resistant, and with the hole in the pommel area it could be hung on a hook for easy storage and quick access . The property is 1/4 mile from the bay. About 2 miles north is the Miami Circle. Inside the circle human vertabra from beheadings were found 12" deep. They haven't been dated yet, but obviously they are pretty old. So at 4-5" deep, this knife may date a century or more possibly.
 

Attachments

  • -web dIRK-4-30-11-measure.jpg
    -web dIRK-4-30-11-measure.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 1,182
  • dirk-for-forum-upload-234.jpg
    dirk-for-forum-upload-234.jpg
    130.4 KB · Views: 1,147
  • dirk-for-forum-upload-2.jpg
    dirk-for-forum-upload-2.jpg
    135.6 KB · Views: 1,130
  • dirk-for-forum-upload-23.jpg
    dirk-for-forum-upload-23.jpg
    131.7 KB · Views: 1,170
  • dirk-for-forum-upload-2345.jpg
    dirk-for-forum-upload-2345.jpg
    133.8 KB · Views: 1,152
Upvote 0
scaupus said:
Thanks so much for that link! No wonder Carr's office told me he was in fort lauderdale! Now I know why he hasn't followed up since he replied to my first email with some questions on my dagger. Unbelievable! I really would like to get on top of something like that. I've been doing some reading and there were apparently dozens of forts in Florida.
If we only could have been there 2 weeks ago. Its really too late now. The area will be off-limits. I was just thinking to GPS the location for future reference such as the next hurricane. ;D

There are several missing forts in the Everglades and I have been searching for them for years. Some have been found.

The sticking tommy sounds like a real possibility but I dont know what it could have been used for in South Florida. :dontknow: Maybe the past owners brought it down from a mining state and then chucked it. :dontknow: Let us know what Carr has to say.
 

Upvote 0
We have no mines, no basements in South Florida ... if you dig a few feet, you hit water.

But I found this: A "sticking Tommy" is a ...candle holder that was used by sailors to "stick" into wooden posts or flat surfaces below decks to provide them with a little extra light.... Because of their shape, they were sometimes used as impromptu weapons during brawls.

Is there anywhere that a candle holder could have broken off?
 

Upvote 0
I have been looking around to see if I could find a candle holder (Sticking Tommy) that has the cross piece like the item in question. And although I have not found one yet, nor anything ship related as BigCy pointed out, I did find this most interesting website that shows just about every form of Tommy Stick imaginable. Check it out.

SBB

Safe Link: http://miningartifacts.homestead.com/minerscandleholders.html
 

Upvote 0
The whaling artifact "sticking tommy" I found looks different. I should have posted the link. http://www.girlonawhaleship.org/jernapp/artifact.do?shortName=sticking_tommy

I dont know what use it would have in South Florida other than sticking pigs. :dontknow:

But residents here come from many other places. Its definitely a good lead, esp if something broke off. . We'll see what scaupus has to say.

Something I just noticed, they seem to be mostly iron.
 

Upvote 0
bigcypresshunter said:
The whaling artifact "sticking tommy" I found looks different. I should have posted the link. http://www.girlonawhaleship.org/jernapp/artifact.do?shortName=sticking_tommy

I dont know what use it would have in South Florida other than sticking pigs. :dontknow:

But residents here come from many other places. Its definitely a good lead, esp if something broke off. . We'll see what scaupus has to say.

Something I just noticed, they seem to be mostly iron.

The item in the picture was skillfully made, very sophisticated. Getting back to florida archeology, I think there is a great deal yet that can be discovered and uncovered. What's needed is the right research. Forts, camps, trading posts, routes, etc. There must be voluminous notes and logs...I know a lot is already known, but I'm sure there is much recondite material out there yet to be researched. The best treasure and artifact detector may be a pair of reading glasses.
 

Upvote 0
I apologize to readers for getting a bit off subject about seals and such..

Back to the subject of "what is it", does it look as if a candle holder could have broken off? Do you think it could be a crude home made "sticking tommy"? (candle holder)
 

Upvote 0
I accidentally found some information on your dagger scaupus and was anxious to share it with you but upon closer inspection I think its the exact same weapon.. ;D Well anyway here is the link and what it says for our readers. I guess you solved it. :icon_thumright: http://treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com/ Scroll down to 1/12/12


"... I checked with several archaeologists, and a guy familiar with forging and welding, and the consensus was that it was not made earlier than the late 19th century. Apparently all antique bronze arms were cast. No one was familiar with an antique edged weapon of any origin made from bar stock and brazed together. My understanding is that Bronze does not weld, though it can be brazed of course, and at a certain temperature it is quite plastic and can be hammered or drawn, and then cold-worked to harden it. Again, though, that was just not done in antiquity to make edged weapons as far as I could find out, probably because it was too much work. This piece appears to have been brazed together from bar stock and then roughly ground to shape. The sort of thing a 20th century amateur with a torch and grinder or belt sander would do in his garage. I also found a piece of clearly modern bar stock, though of a different size and shape than used in the dagger, on the same property. A Nail found in the hole near the dagger was a modern wire nail, though extremely rusted, probably from early 20th century. Also, Bob Carr said the depth it was found,about 4"- indicates it was not Spanish." QUOTE
 

Upvote 0
Don't know what it is ..........But I've seen this posted before, when did you find it? I'm sure I saw this thing before, IMHO could be a castaways knife, from the earliest time of discovery of Fla.HH
 

Upvote 0
Gunrunner61 said:
Don't know what it is ..........But I've seen this posted before, when did you find it? I'm sure I saw this thing before, IMHO could be a castaways knife, from the earliest time of discovery of Fla.HH
No, its not that old. Read above post. Its no older than late 19th century. This is an old thread and maybe thats where you saw it before.
 

Upvote 0
There are a lot of different style ,"push stick",candle holders we find around the mines.They were the first used lighting in the mines.Looks a lot like one
 

Upvote 0
Gunrunner61 said:
Don't know what it is ..........But I've seen this posted before, when did you find it? I'm sure I saw this thing before, IMHO could be a castaways knife, from the earliest time of discovery of Fla.HH
Sorry gunrunner. I guess its not solved but its a high probability that it not older than late 19th century, according to the archeaologists, because of the braze. But I guess they could be wrong so keep the guesses coming. Could belong to an early settler.
 

Upvote 0
I think your right Bch, That post it the one i saw before I'm almost sure of it. And after looking back at the piece in question and magnifying it , looks like grinder marks to me. Someones garage project.?
 

Upvote 0
I recall this thread and my minor participation in it. But now, after re-reading the various post and looking at the pictures again, I am convinced more than ever there is a "specific" reason why the so called handle part was made in two pieces and that it has a long gap running through the center of it. I'm not sure what that specific reason might be right at the moment, but I just don't think it is a true "handle." If it were just an ordinary handle of some kind, I honestly don't think they would have needed or designed it with the long gap. I'm thinking the long gap and loop end will be key clues to its final identification. I know it looks like a dagger, and it may very well be. But there is something about the gapped/looped "handle" that really makes me wonder. I'm almost thinking the handle was intended to "give" / "spread open" a little bit (Maybe). But spread open for what purpose, I really don't know. :dontknow:

SBB
 

Upvote 0
Here's a crazy thought ...

Maybe, just maybe the "speading/tension" aspect was so it could be forced onto a long wooden handle for ... ? For reaching up and stabbing or cutting coconuts loose from the tops of coconut palms? You see, I really don't know either. But hopefully you get the general idea now as to where I'm going with this theory of mine.

SBB
 

Upvote 0
SODABOTTLEBOB said:
I recall this thread and my minor participation in it. But now, after re-reading the various post and looking at the pictures again, I am convinced more than ever there is a "specific" reason why the so called handle part was made in two pieces and that it has a long gap running through the center of it. I'm not sure what that specific reason might be right at the moment, but I just don't think it is a true "handle." If it were just an ordinary handle of some kind, I honestly don't think they would have needed or designed it with the long gap. I'm thinking the long gap and loop end will be key clues to its final identification. I know it looks like a dagger, and it may very well be. But there is something about the gapped/looped "handle" that really makes me wonder. I'm almost thinking the handle was intended to "give" / "spread open" a little bit (Maybe). But spread open for what purpose, I really don't know. :dontknow:

SBB

I missed that you had already brought up the "sticking Tommy",Bob.There was alot of variations of these and they were not just used in mines
 

Upvote 0
SODABOTTLEBOB said:
kuger ~

I hear ya. But the popular concensus seems to be leaning away from "Sticking Tommy's" Thus my reason for "trying something else." :dontknow:

Here's the link again that I posted previously and shows quite a few different Sticking Tommy's. Check it out if you haven't already.

Thanks.

SBB

Link: tp://miningartifacts.homestead.com/minerscandleholders.html

;DI know,I just felt like it wasnt being considered :BangHead: :laughing7:.I dont know why it would be "beveled",so far up the shaft though?
 

Upvote 0
kuger said:
SODABOTTLEBOB said:
kuger ~

I hear ya. But the popular concensus seems to be leaning away from "Sticking Tommy's" Thus my reason for "trying something else." :dontknow:

;DI know,I just felt like it wasnt being considered :BangHead: :laughing7:.
We dont have any mines. Dig a few feet down anywhere in South Florida and you hit water. Unless it was used below deck in the timbers of a large ship.

My guess is still a pig sticker made from bar stock by a poor settler or maybe even to kill something from the ocean caught in nets.

He told me he sold it on eBay for a decent price.
 

Upvote 0

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top