Crude bronze or brass dagger- antique, or 20th century shop project?

[scaupus]

I found this item buried in the ground about 5" deep while metal detecting in my dad's yard. He had no idea it was there or where it came from - he's owned the home since 1977, it was built in 1925; before 1923 it was a tropical forest on the Miami Ridge about one mile south of the mouth of the Miami River (florida). Mary Brickell cleared the area, put in roads and electric street lighting in 1923 and gave the whole area, about a square mile, to the city of miami, calling it "Brickell Hammock" but it's been known as The Roads since the road grid does not match the rest of the city. The area was very lightly inhabited sporadically before the 1890's, panthers still roamed the ridge at that time. Before the 1890s there had been some Bahamians, a few squatters, Seminole Indians (2nd and to a lesser degree, the 3rd Seminole wars caused the population of Biscayne Shore as it was known then, to evacuate en mass), US Army was at Fort Dallas on the north shore of the Miami River; there were planters at various times; and on a few occasions, there were the Spanish going back to first discovery, from 1516 until 1744. I nicked the metal and it is gold colored under the "patina.", indicating to me it is probably bronze. It looks to me like bronze bar stock or brazing rods possibly. I wonder if the white patches are leached out lead. My dad thinks it predates the house. He's 88 and he owns a chopping knife that his grandfather smithed sometime before the turn of the 20th century, and he thinks someone similarly made this dagger using a fire, anvil, hammer, and grinder, motivated by the need for a weapon, rather than a later 20th century person making a project knife. Bronze can be worked at a lower temperature than steel, and is quite hard, but brittle compared to weapon steel. I should mention that the edges are sharp. I'm trying to learn more about the previous inhabitants, but all I know is that it wasn't made by the people who sold the house to my dad. The original owner was a woman who founded a garden club and planted the gardens around the house (which really interfere with my artifact hunting). I don't know yet if there were any other inhabitants. The blade is bent and the tip broken. There are grindstone or belt-sanding striations - I don't know which, though everywhere except the inside of the rods in the tang area. The thought occurred to me that it may have been made to keep aboard a boat -bronze would be corrosion resistant, and with the hole in the pommel area it could be hung on a hook for easy storage and quick access . The property is 1/4 mile from the bay. About 2 miles north is the Miami Circle. Inside the circle human vertabra from beheadings were found 12" deep. They haven't been dated yet, but obviously they are pretty old. So at 4-5" deep, this knife may date a century or more possibly.

 

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[WAres]

spark it with a hand grinder to tell what kind metal you have. bronze,brass wont spark. stainless and iron will spark

 

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[scaupus]

spark it with a hand grinder to tell what kind metal you have. bronze,brass wont spark. stainless and iron will spark

that's a good idea. I knew they used bronze to make tools for flammable or explosive environments because it doesn't spark. But I've already determined to a 100% certainty that its bronze.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The best bet at IDing this is to determine what it was originally. But it may just be bronze bar stock. I think everyone is in agreement that its homemade.

 

[scaupus]

The best bet at IDing this is to determine what it was originally. But it may just be bronze bar stock. I think everyone is in agreement that its homemade.

I've done some research, and swords and daggers with rings as pommels were quite common in many places and cultures, and pretty much invariably military. Google images has a ton of photos of these weapons. Oddly enough, the most interesting one to me was this modern replica version of a knights dagger. It says these were very common, and the ring was used to hang the dagger on a hook attached to the knight's armor. The design of this dagger, including the shape of the guard, are very similar to the weapon I dug up.

http://www.armory.net/item.cfm/RecordId/2200-KE.htm

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The best bet at IDing this is to determine what it was originally. But it may just be bronze bar stock. I think everyone is in agreement that its homemade.

I've done some research, and swords and daggers with rings as pommels were quite common in many places and cultures, and pretty much invariably military. Google images has a ton of photos of these weapons. Oddly enough, the most interesting one to me was this modern replica version of a knights dagger. It says these were very common, and the ring was used to hang the dagger on a hook attached to the knight's armor. The design of this dagger, including the shape of the guard, are very similar to the weapon I dug up.

http://www.armory.net/item.cfm/RecordId/2200-KE.htm

It may have a ring to hang on but the blade is all together different in the way it was made.

But it may be a clue to search the way this blade was made by welding bar stocks together. You would think someone scavenging could come up with an old file or something to make a more decent knife blade.

It seems that the most important purpose of this project was to make a hanging bronze knife. Maybe it was not a weapon but to be used around saltwater for fishing or around the farm? I was told poor settlers killed hogs by stabbing to save bullets. Cattle: sledge to the head. Hogs: spear to the heart.

 

[scaupus]

The best bet at IDing this is to determine what it was originally. But it may just be bronze bar stock. I think everyone is in agreement that its homemade.

I've done some research, and swords and daggers with rings as pommels were quite common in many places and cultures, and pretty much invariably military. Google images has a ton of photos of these weapons. Oddly enough, the most interesting one to me was this modern replica version of a knights dagger. It says these were very common, and the ring was used to hang the dagger on a hook attached to the knight's armor. The design of this dagger, including the shape of the guard, are very similar to the weapon I dug up.

http://www.armory.net/item.cfm/RecordId/2200-KE.htm

It may have a ring to hang on but the blade is all together different in the way it was made.

But it may be a clue to search the way this blade was made by welding bar stocks together. You would think someone scavenging could come up with an old file or something to make a more decent knife blade.

It seems that the most important purpose of this project was to make a hanging bronze knife. Maybe it was not a weapon but to be used around saltwater for fishing or around the farm? I was told poor settlers killed hogs by stabbing to save bullets. Cattle: sledge to the head. Hogs: spear to the heart.

i agree. A bronze dagger would resist corrosion on a boat, but this is a fighting double-edged dagger and if kept on a boat was used either for self-defense or piracy, a working boat knife would have a different blade. It is a stabbing knife, but it seems unlikely anyone would make a long bronze dagger with a ring to stab hogs. I doubt this design, with this long a blade, in bronze, is one an american or englishman or bahamian settler would have made. And if it is a shop project, it is a very, very eccentric one. So eccentric, that it just seems improbable. But the design certainly would have been a familiar one to a colonial or expeditionary Spaniard, and this dagger would have been right at home hanging on spanish armor. But why was it made so rudely, and why bronze? Spaniards had excellent steel weapons. Possibly it was a poor footman's weapon, or a replacement weapon forged on board, perhaps steel was in short supply or being saved to replace broken or lost swords or armor or tools - bronze is almost as hard as steel in a short weapon (under 2'), but rapidly loses tensile strength when made longer than that.

Interestingly , I found a small panel of bronze or copper sheeting cut with a tin snips a good foot under ground - a broken, factory made pot was buried in the earth above it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It is a stabbing knife, but it seems unlikely anyone would make a long bronze dagger with a ring to stab hogs.

Why not? What kind of spear/knife would a poor settler make or use?
To a colonist, iron was more valuable than bronze.

My ex-wife grew up on a poor farm in Lousiana. Her mother told me they stabbed hogs through the heart to save bullets. I didnt see the tool used but I would imagine a double edged sword design like this would be well suited for the job if it would stay sharp.. Im not saying it is or it isnt, just throwing out ideas.


I dont have any idea if could be Spanish but I would think that the Spanish conquistadors would be better equiped than to use something so crudely made and so poorly designed. Just take a look at some of the weapons found from offshore shipwrecks.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another question. Does bronze hold a sharp edge?

 

[scaupus]

Another question. Does bronze hold a sharp edge?

Yes, it does, but not as well as steel.

 

[scaupus]

It is a stabbing knife, but it seems unlikely anyone would make a long bronze dagger with a ring to stab hogs.

Why not? What kind of spear/knife would a poor settler make or use?
To a colonist, iron was more valuable than bronze.

My ex-wife grew up on a poor farm in Lousiana. Her mother told me they stabbed hogs through the heart to save bullets. I didnt see the tool used but I would imagine a double edged sword design like this would be well suited for the job if it would stay sharp.. Im not saying it is or it isnt, just throwing out ideas.


I dont have any idea if could be Spanish but I would think that the Spanish conquistadors would be better equiped than to use something so crudely made and so poorly designed. Just take a look at some of the weapons found from offshore shipwrecks.

Good point, I suppose it would make a great hog stabber. And yes, the spanish had excellent steel weapons, the best swords in Europe. Iron was a lot more common and cheaper than bronze, but if weapons were running short, or they needed steel for tools, nails, etc, they may have turned to their supply of bronze to make a short sidearm. It is crudely executed, but it is well designed, similar to design and proportions to daggers used in sword fighting at that time. I'm playing with ideas, too. A spanish copper spoon was found in the southwest, possibly from Coronado's route. Copper is not even a safe metal to eat with, it's poisonous, but there it was. I think they used what they had.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Even if it is a weapon, I was thinking more likely made by Indians or settlers. The Spaniards desperately wanted to protect the shipping lanes but were never able to make any successful settlements or landings in Southeast Florida or the Keys. Esp the Miami area. The Indians quickly massacred any shipwreck survivors. There would be no need and certainly no time to make this weapon. The Spaniards would have been fully loaded and equiped departing Havanna. They would pass the area we now know as Miami as quickly as possible lol.
IMO not Spanish unless it was made in Havanna.

If you still think Spanish, I would search the records of salvaged shipwreck items. I would imagine there must be others but I have never heard of a bronze Spanish sword being found. Of course I could be wrong. But thats where I would search to prove or disprove your theory. Not in the SW.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another suggestion. Post it on our shipwreck forum and ask them if they ever heard of a bronze Spanish dagger. Those guys would know if one was ever found. .

 

[scaupus]

The best bet at IDing this is to determine what it was originally. But it may just be bronze bar stock. I think everyone is in agreement that its homemade.

I've done some research, and swords and daggers with rings as pommels were quite common in many places and cultures, and pretty much invariably military. Google images has a ton of photos of these weapons. Oddly enough, the most interesting one to me was this modern replica version of a knights dagger. It says these were very common, and the ring was used to hang the dagger on a hook attached to the knight's armor. The design of this dagger, including the shape of the guard, are very similar to the weapon I dug up.

http://www.armory.net/item.cfm/RecordId/2200-KE.htm

Even if it is a weapon, I was thinking more likely made by Indians or settlers. The Spaniards desperately wanted to protect the shipping lanes but were never able to make any successful settlements or landings in Southeast Florida or the Keys. Esp the Miami area. The Indians quickly massacred any shipwreck survivors. There would be no need and certainly no time to make this weapon. The Spaniards would have been fully loaded and equiped departing Havanna. They would pass the area we now know as Miami as quickly as possible lol.
IMO not Spanish unless it was made in Havanna.

If you still think Spanish, I would search the records of salvaged shipwreck items. I would imagine there must be others but I have never heard of a bronze Spanish sword being found. Of course I could be wrong. But thats where I would search to prove or disprove your theory. Not in the SW.

The spanish had a mission on the miami river where fort dallas was later built. It lasted only 3-4 years but it included friars and a company of soldiers and that's only 1 mile north of where the dagger was found. They also landed 2 ships in about 1740, at the request of the Tequestas, to take them to Cuba as they were hard pressed by Seminoles (Creeks). Not long after Ponce de leon discovered Florida, Menendez de Avila made landfall at the Miami River looking for his shipwrecked son. Ponce de Leon himself entered Biscayne Bay, did not state in his log that they made a landing, but they may well have. And as you say, there were shipwreck survivors at various times, and we don't know how they were armed. Slavers were frequently up and down the coasts of Florida looking for merchandise.

 

[scaupus]

Even if it is a weapon, I was thinking more likely made by Indians or settlers. The Spaniards desperately wanted to protect the shipping lanes but were never able to make any successful settlements or landings in Southeast Florida or the Keys. Esp the Miami area. The Indians quickly massacred any shipwreck survivors. There would be no need and certainly no time to make this weapon. The Spaniards would have been fully loaded and equiped departing Havanna. They would pass the area we now know as Miami as quickly as possible lol.
IMO not Spanish unless it was made in Havanna.

If you still think Spanish, I would search the records of salvaged shipwreck items. I would imagine there must be others but I have never heard of a bronze Spanish sword being found. Of course I could be wrong. But thats where I would search to prove or disprove your theory. Not in the SW.

I thought of that, but most recovered shipwrecks were treasure/cargo ships not expeditionary or colonist ships, and you would not find such a weapon on one of those wrecks.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I thought of that, but most recovered shipwrecks were treasure/cargo ships not expeditionary or colonist ships, and you would not find such a weapon on one of those wrecks.

There were no expeditionary or colonial ships in your area. The native Florida Indians were so brutal they even killed and tortured shipwreck survivors.

It cant possibly be from a Spanish colony because there werent any as far as I know. The nearest Spanish colonization attempt on the East coast of Florida was further up near the St Lucie Inlet. After repeated Indian attacks, the fort succombed. The nearest successful colonization was Saint Augustine. http://www.treasurelore.com/florida/florida_forts.htm There were pirates but I dont know if you are on the water..

Im not saying the Spanish didnt have bronze daggers, I just never heard of any. Its not hard to check. There is a Mel Fisher site that documents everything found from the 1715 fleet and you could also check the 1733 disaster. There are also many 1600's wrecks. If you already know there werent any, then that settles it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The fierce ancient Indians died off from European diseases and South Florida became a haven for runaway slaves, pirates, a few Cuban fisherman, Seminole Indians from Georgia and the Bohemians you mentioned. Later English settlers. I would look in these latter groups.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I would like to hear others opinions. Im certainly not a knife expert.

The spanish had a mission on the miami river where fort dallas was later built. It lasted only 3-4 years but it included friars and a company of soldiers and that's only 1 mile north of where the dagger was found. They also landed 2 ships in about 1740, at the request of the Tequestas, to take them to Cuba as they were hard pressed by Seminoles (Creeks). Not long after Ponce de leon discovered Florida, Menendez de Avila made landfall at the Miami River looking for his shipwrecked son. Ponce de Leon himself entered Biscayne Bay, did not state in his log that they made a landing, but they may well have. And as you say, there were shipwreck survivors at various times, and we don't know how they were armed. Slavers were frequently up and down the coasts of Florida looking for merchandise.

I see you added to your post about a Spanish mission in the area. Sorry I posted too fast and missed it. Im surprised the mission lasted that long. Do you have any links? What year was it? It sounds very interesting. 8)

By 1740 the native Indians were succumbing to European diseases. This is a time of Spains decline as a world power. The Seminoles were moving down from Georgia. It must have been a wild place full of pirates, criminals, escaped slaves and such. I would be more inclined to think it came from this era than from Spain's heyday.


Yes Ponce De Leon made several landings but he didnt stay any longer than necessary to get fresh food or water. I read his logbooks a long time ago. He supposedly left crosses on the beach. Nobody has ever found one that I know of.... would be worth a fortune.

Several shipwrecked survivors lived with the Indians. They were armed with whatever they could salvage. Hernando D'Escalante Fontaneda wrote a book and this is where we get most of our knowledge about Floridas ancient Indians. http://www.treasurelore.com/florida/fontaneda.htm

Jonathon Dickinson was shipwrecked in the 1696 and walked to Saint Augustine. He also wrote an interesting book on his survival and the Indians he met for some reason after several weeks captive, didnt kill him. Jonathan Dickinson's Journal, or, God's Protecting Providence http://www.amazon.com/Jonathan-Dickinsons-journal-protecting-providence/dp/B0007G6E48

When I suggested this was used for fishing, I meant stabbing. It has been written that the Indians killed whales, turtles, sea wolves and manatees. The Spanish also mention observing the now extinct Carribean Monk Seal in large numbers. The Caribbean monk seal was hunted for its blubber, to make oil, and for its meat ever since Western ships explored the area, Columbus' ship itself killing eight "sea wolves" in 1495. Hunting was carried out both on an opportunistic basis by local fishermen as well as on a commercial basis. There are accounts of people surviving shipwrecks by feeding on Caribbean monk seals. http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/mammals/pinnipeds/caribbeanmonkseal.htm It was a bountiful place.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another thought. Any other items found could help determine the age of the site.

Did you hear about the fort found on Fort Laud beach during construction? The workers were digging a channel for a drainage pipe two weeks ago when they found several hundred artifacts, including musket balls, gold coins and some buttons off military uniforms. I may drive up to check it out. http://www.local10.com/news/27858910/detail.html

 

[scaupus]

Another thought. Any other items found could help determine the age of the site.

Did you hear about the fort found on Fort Laud beach during construction? The workers were digging a channel for a drainage pipe two weeks ago when they found several hundred artifacts, including musket balls, gold coins and some buttons off military uniforms. I may drive up to check it out. http://www.local10.com/news/27858910/detail.html

Thanks so much for that link! No wonder Carr's office told me he was in fort lauderdale! Now I know why he hasn't followed up since he replied to my first email with some questions on my dagger. Unbelievable! I really would like to get on top of something like that. I've been doing some reading and there were apparently dozens of forts in Florida. In fact, I think it was General Harney, built a string of them 20 miles apart across the entire peninsula apparently. That's about 20 right there possibly. And I think he did something like that twice. I'm going over for sure. If you'd like to meet up let me know...

oh, and what a shame they killed off the Biscayne Bay monk seals, right? Sub-species of the Caribbean monk seal which may have just recently entirely gone extinct.

I'm sure you can get a reference on the Miami mission from wikipedia.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I tried to read through everything the best I could, but didn't see anything along these lines mentioned. It is typically referred to as a "Sticking Tommy."

SBB

In and around the 1860's western miners fashioned a spike with the end bent to hold a candle. The Comstock area miners are credited for the invention of the candlestick. By 1867 these designs were improved and well accepted in the Comstock Mines of Nevada and the Gold Mines of California. The first candlestick was patented in 1872 and a few years later the hook was added to the early designs. By the 1870's local blacksmiths as well as manufacturers were turning out candlesticks by the hundreds. The candlestick was among the miner's most prized possessions and there were hundreds of styles, shapes and sizes to suit his individual tastes.