Crude bronze or brass dagger- antique, or 20th century shop project?

scaupus

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Apr 20, 2011
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Not too far from a beach
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I found this item buried in the ground about 5" deep while metal detecting in my dad's yard. He had no idea it was there or where it came from - he's owned the home since 1977, it was built in 1925; before 1923 it was a tropical forest on the Miami Ridge about one mile south of the mouth of the Miami River (florida). Mary Brickell cleared the area, put in roads and electric street lighting in 1923 and gave the whole area, about a square mile, to the city of miami, calling it "Brickell Hammock" but it's been known as The Roads since the road grid does not match the rest of the city. The area was very lightly inhabited sporadically before the 1890's, panthers still roamed the ridge at that time. Before the 1890s there had been some Bahamians, a few squatters, Seminole Indians (2nd and to a lesser degree, the 3rd Seminole wars caused the population of Biscayne Shore as it was known then, to evacuate en mass), US Army was at Fort Dallas on the north shore of the Miami River; there were planters at various times; and on a few occasions, there were the Spanish going back to first discovery, from 1516 until 1744. I nicked the metal and it is gold colored under the "patina.", indicating to me it is probably bronze. It looks to me like bronze bar stock or brazing rods possibly. I wonder if the white patches are leached out lead. My dad thinks it predates the house. He's 88 and he owns a chopping knife that his grandfather smithed sometime before the turn of the 20th century, and he thinks someone similarly made this dagger using a fire, anvil, hammer, and grinder, motivated by the need for a weapon, rather than a later 20th century person making a project knife. Bronze can be worked at a lower temperature than steel, and is quite hard, but brittle compared to weapon steel. I should mention that the edges are sharp. I'm trying to learn more about the previous inhabitants, but all I know is that it wasn't made by the people who sold the house to my dad. The original owner was a woman who founded a garden club and planted the gardens around the house (which really interfere with my artifact hunting). I don't know yet if there were any other inhabitants. The blade is bent and the tip broken. There are grindstone or belt-sanding striations - I don't know which, though everywhere except the inside of the rods in the tang area. The thought occurred to me that it may have been made to keep aboard a boat -bronze would be corrosion resistant, and with the hole in the pommel area it could be hung on a hook for easy storage and quick access . The property is 1/4 mile from the bay. About 2 miles north is the Miami Circle. Inside the circle human vertabra from beheadings were found 12" deep. They haven't been dated yet, but obviously they are pretty old. So at 4-5" deep, this knife may date a century or more possibly.
 

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Welcome to the forum scaupus. Considering where you found it, it could be something old. Thanks for posting.

My friends company is tearing up the road on Brickell. Im trying to get permission to search.. A lot of history in the area and the Archaeologists are watching the digging..

I have an old map of the area somewhere.
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
Welcome to the forum scaupus. Considering where you found it, it could be something old. Thanks for posting.

My friends company is tearing up the road on Brickell. Im trying to get permission to search.. A lot of history in the area and the Archaeologists are watching the digging..

I have an old map of the area somewhere.
good luck getting under that road.

I 've hunted the BC myself at times, but its been a few years...
 

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Did you test it with a magnet? It looks rusty in spots.

I just realized how long it is. Looks like a home made weapon. It would be an ugly shop project. :D
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
Did you test it with a magnet? It looks rusty in spots.

yes, i did, it's not magnetic. There was a large nail rusting away in that hole. I'm not even sure I saved that nail.
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
Welcome to the forum scaupus. Considering where you found it, it could be something old. Thanks for posting.

My friends company is tearing up the road on Brickell. Im trying to get permission to search.. A lot of history in the area and the Archaeologists are watching the digging..

I have an old map of the area somewhere.
just saw the postcard, missed it first time. That's great. that water sure looks fishy.
 

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I have a copy of a handwritten map of the original settlements on the river. Ill post it if I can find it. Maybe you have seen it.
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
I have a copy of a handwritten map of the original settlements on the river. Ill post it if I can find it. Maybe you have seen it.

It likely is an ugly shop project - someone without either patience or skill gave up on it in a huff, broke the tip off and threw it in the garden. Well, that's one scenario. My dad is going to show me the title search this weekend, and I'll see who lived here besides the garden lady and the young couple that sold him the house (now in their 60's). We found a phone where we might reach the wife (divorced and remarried); my dad wants to reach her anyway because she once revisited the house with her mother and told my dad she wanted first offer if he ever put it on the market. My dad was told (by whom? good question) that it was originally built in 1925 for the French Consul, but he returned to france before living in it.
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
I have a copy of a handwritten map of the original settlements on the river. Ill post it if I can find it. Maybe you have seen it.

Please do post it, i don't think i've seen it before.
 

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scaupus said:
bigcypresshunter said:
I have a copy of a handwritten map of the original settlements on the river. Ill post it if I can find it. Maybe you have seen it.

Please do post it, i don't think i've seen it before.
Im looking for it but so far I cant find it. I think I posted it here back in 2005 or so but I cant find it on search either.
 

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Curious find. Could be a crude knife, could be a tent peg. If a peg, why the long shank above the crossbar? And why not iron? Same can be said about a knife. Brass/bronze aren't noted for their strength for blades. Both are too soft to hold a sharp edge for a long period of useage. But... they are resistant to corrosion. I think I see grinder marks on the piece, which may help date it.
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
scaupus said:
bigcypresshunter said:
I have a copy of a handwritten map of the original settlements on the river. Ill post it if I can find it. Maybe you have seen it.

Please do post it, i don't think i've seen it before.
Im looking for it but so far I cant find it. I think I posted it here back in 2005 or so but I cant find it on search either.

i just bought a 1963 miami/m beach roadmap on ebay.
 

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Notice the Indian War pic. Look closely you will see Indians being attacked by dogs. Many people dont know this but Indians were hunted down with dogs. The Spanish conquistadors used fierce Greyhounds on the ancient Florida Indians.
 

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bigcypresshunter said:
Notice the Indian War pic. Look closely you will see Indians being attacked by dogs. Many people dont know this but Indians were hunted down with dogs. The Spanish conquistadors used fierce Greyhounds on the ancient Florida Indians.

I knew that about the spanish, (I had read they used mastiff type dogs, the breed descended from Roman war dogs). However, I did not know that the Americans used dogs. That first litho shows americans lead by Andrew Jackson on the horse.
 

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