CPTBILs mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

[Peerless67]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

"Peerless you have covered the chimps and tool use very well, and hit upon one of the odd things with evolution as well, for why do we still have chimpanzees, seeing their obvious adaptability to new things? Is it a case of "arrested evolution" or is the truth about evolution far more complex? "


I am not so sure evolution is that complex, although there is something to be said for "arrested evolution" if we take the whale as an example, left the sea and became a land mammal no larger than a dog and then returned to the sea to become the largest individual living animal on the planet. So sometimes when evolutionary stages may appear "arrested" it could simply be that a niche was opened for a species to take a different route at a given time.
The chimpanzee comes from the same family we do, I would guess that there was an enviromental niche to be filled which led to the species branching off. We have no certain way to determine what that species may later evolve into. But given their intellect and obvious social awareness and tool use we could hazzard an educated guess at what that may be, and an upright walking, tool using, intellectual mammal is not so far fetched.


One day the lemming will fly ?

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Good monring my esteemed friend, Cactus Hopper: You are correct as usual, it referred to the brain 'mass'. No mention was made regardng motor and / or other abilities.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peerless67]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

"Well I am unconvinced of any successful interbreeding between Cromagnon and Neanderthals, since the DNA tests have shown we modern humans do not have any Neanderthal DNA in ours. No DNA does not mean there was no interbreeding, just that either few or no offspring seem to have passed on that Neanderthal DNA to us."


Same genus, different species ?

Given the Neanderthal did not have a particularly large range and existed in smaller numbers, we have to assume that "modern" man encroached into Neanderthals environment and out numbered him. Given the lack of evidence of any major violent, sudden end to the Neanderthals existence, there must be a “natural” reason for his disappearance, and one which explains the missing Neanderthal gene pool in modern man.
Had “modern” man not made his way into Neanderthals home range is it possible he could still exist today ?

Maybe the answer lay in what we can observe today within certain genus. If we use the cat genus and use the 2 species, lion and tiger we could possibly create a model that shows what may have happened.
These 2 creatures are not naturally found in each others environments and so naturally would not breed, but we know they can, and that they can produce offspring, the liger.
The problem is the male is sterile and the female tigress often has birthing problems, the offspring often have limited life spans and are often born with defects and mutations.
If we were to release a few tigers onto the African savannah how long would it be before there was no trace of the tiger and lion co-existing in the lions gene pool ? Female tigers would be giving birth to unviable offspring or dying in childbirth the males which survived birth would be sterile add this to the fact that there were far fewer tigers than lions on the savannah to start with and the depletion of the tiger population would be rapid.
I believe something along these lines is what lead to the demise of Neanderthal and is the reason for the lack of evidence of interbreeding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

good morning my sheep luvin buddy ORO: You posted that the various destructions were during man's time on the Earth, which is correct, however, I understood that this occurred prior to mans appearance, perhaps in the theoretical time period of the disappearance of the Dinosaur ? I do not remember in which version of the Bible it was, but obviously it was not the popular King James' version.

However, I would suggest that you consult with both Cactus and Peerless on the reference to man's intimate relationship with sheep. Mules were specificly excluded. (snicker)

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s I am reminded also of the fossil remains of one of the wild oxen skulls which has a precisely placed bullet hole between the eyes on an angle to penetrate the brain. This skull predates by far, Man's supposed first appearance, let alone his development of firearms ?..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Gary,

"Given the Neanderthal did not have a particularly large range....."

I believe you are badly mistaken here. The Neanderthal had a huge range and it continues to grow with time and research.

The popular consensus is that the Neanderthal did little interbreeding with other races. However, that opinion is far from unanimous. Once again, time and research has a tendency to alter most archaeological history. The Neanderthal DNA evidence is, almost always, heavily contaminated.

Our understanding of the Neanderthal is far from being written in stone.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061030-Neanderthals.HTML

My own opinion, as you know, is that they did interbreed and some (as yet) unknown factor is hiding the linkage to modern-man. The evidence to support that belief is slow in coming but it is growing at a regular pace.

There are a number of "finds" which show unmistakable physical similarities between Neanderthal and.......others. It's a fascinating subject and one for which you will find evidence arguing both sides of the debate.....if, that is, you look for both sides.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Peerless67]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Joe, I should have pointed out that the quote was made in comparison to Cro-magnon and Erectus. You are quite correct to point out that there could be some as yet unexplained/undiscovered reason why the DNA link is hidden, which was the other reason for using the tiger/lion suggestion.
I know very little about the subject but my understanding of the lack of evidence as it is today is that mitochondrial DNA which is inherited via the female line is subject to genetic drift and so is of little use for the purpose of proving interbreeding. That would be the scenario we would get using the lion/tiger example I used, because of the infertile males most DNA would have to pass down the female line, couple that with high death rates in females giving birth and the birth defects etc etc and you soon see how in a relatively short space of time you lose the male lineage DNA.

I also believe that they did interbreed but without a great deal of success.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/323657.stm

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Gary,

Thank you for your reply and the interesting link.

Once a theory becomes "accepted" in archaeology, it's very difficult to dislodge it. There are a few books that buck the trend, but most of the positive information promoting the possible interbreeding of the Neanderthal with other races is found in more recent scientific journals and articles.

There was a time when Neanderthal's were depicted as physically much different then what they are believed to look like by today's scientists. The modern illustrations of what they looked like is one of the things that helped to convince me that they surely must have interbred. Beyond that, we do have much better evidence than the link you provided shows. I would need to be at home to find the passage in "Paleolithic Of Siberia" that describes the remains that were found there. Perhaps I quoted what was found in the Teshik-Tash Cave in Uzbekistan earlier.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Good evening my friends: a simple example of interbreeding lies with our Burros and Horses. The offspring are Mules. Unfortunately only one mule in perhaps 10 thousand is capable of passing on it's genes.

Near here are the burial caves of the giants. They were perhaps 9-10 ft tall. They were red haired. The last known one, a male, was killed near Chinapas, Chih. in the early 1900's. My informant's father killed him. When I asked why, he merely shrugged and said that it seemed like a good idea at the time??

As for mating I rather think that the disparate size of the necessary equipment / apparatus would probably limit it to a normal Male and a giantress.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peerless67]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

I would also guess that the "giants" and "hobits" origins could also be explained by the tiger/lion example.
The liger is a giant compared to either parent whereas pumas and leoapards offspring, pumapards tend to be dwafts compared to their parents.
All four animals belong to the same family but are of different species.
How many combinations could there be for Neanderthal and the other homonini if the same trends were seen in them interbreeding ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA mi amigos,
Peerless wrote

<snip>I believe something along these lines is what lead to the demise of Neanderthal and is the reason for the lack of evidence of interbreeding.

Peerless your proposed answer may well be the correct one, and explain why no Neanderthal DNA has yet been found in our own. The Neanderthals are thought not to have been as numerous or as densely populated as Cromagnons (us) at any time, so sheer numbers would likely result in their eventual disappearance especially if there were intermarriages. <Not proposing that they performed marriage rites, using that term to refer to cross-breeding>

A parallel can be seen within our own species, for the ancient Colchians (on the Black Sea, near modern day Georgia/Armenia) were black Africans. They were still noticably dark in the time of Herodotus <about 440 BC> but by the second-third centuries AD, so much intermarriage ha occurred that Colchians were not noticably any darker than the other peoples living around them. This "change of color" took only five centuries, but may not be a perfect example as the Colchians were of the same species as their neighbors. A small population of black people still lived in the region into the 20th century too, so perhaps the process of being "assimilated" by neighboring peoples is still not complete after over 20 centuries.

Don Jose' de la Mancha wrote

You posted that the various destructions were during man's time on the Earth, which is correct, however, I understood that this occurred prior to mans appearance, perhaps in the theoretical time period of the disappearance of the Dinosaur ? I do not remember in which version of the Bible it was, but obviously it was not the popular King James' version.

However, I would suggest that you consult with both Cactus and Peerless on the reference to man's intimate relationship with sheep. Mules were specificly excluded. (snicker)

Are you referring to the Ethiopic and/or Coptic bible(s)? I think both are online (somewhere) and the earlier destruction may well be recorded there. As Plato claimed the Egyptians told Solon, there have been many destructions over the millenia, not just one flood. If we are to believe the Egyptian and Phoenician historians, then "recorded" history actually extends back almost 30,000 years, in which time there have indeed been numerous natural disasters.

Mules are excluded? Hmm.....

Don Jose' also wrote

p.s I am reminded also of the fossil remains of one of the wild oxen skulls which has a precisely placed bullet hole between the eyes on an angle to penetrate the brain. This skull predates by far, Man's supposed first appearance, let alone his development of firearms

Some have pointed to these mysterious skulls as solid evidence of time travelers, perhaps taking "hunting safaris" into the distant past to hunt very dangerous and exotic game animals. One proposed explanation was that there was some type of boring insect like modern screw-worms, which bored into bone. No such insect has ever been found to lend credence to this idea, but the skeptics will accept that faster than the idea of a very ancient advanced culture of man or time travelers.

Cactusjumper wrote

The popular consensus is that the Neanderthal did little interbreeding with other races. However, that opinion is far from unanimous.

If memory serves, there have been finds of human remains which show both Cromagnon and Neanderthal traits, a child in Israel and I think one in the Iberian peninsula somewhere, also an infant. While these could indeed prove that interbreeding did occur, the fact that the remains are that of an infant may point to some health/physical problem or even parental rejection (ancient tribes sometimes practiced "exposure" of any infant that appeared less than normal) though the fact that the one found in Israel had been buried would at least suggest that the child had not been deliberately allowed to die in the elements. Based on what evidence we have, it looks like there was little interbreeding and no successful offspring. As you have pointed out, in the science of archaeology (and anthropology, paleontolgy etc) the book is not written in stone, YET.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Once a theory becomes "accepted" in archaeology, it's very difficult to dislodge it.

As they say in Wyoming, "BOY HOWDY" is that ever true!

Don Jose de la Mancha also wrote

Good evening my friends: a simple example of interbreeding lies with our Burros and Horses. The offspring are Mules. Unfortunately only one mule in perhaps 10 thousand is capable of passing on it's genes.

Near here are the burial caves of the giants. They were perhaps 9-10 ft tall. They were red haired. The last known one, a male, was killed near Chinapas, Chih. in the early 1900's. My informant's father killed him. When I asked why, he merely shrugged and said that it seemed like a good idea at the time??

As for mating I rather think that the disparate size of the necessary equipment / apparatus would probably limit it to a normal Male and a giantress.

You may have the answer - perhaps any offspring produced by crossing Cromagnon with Neanderthal would be sterile or have some other defect preventing successful reproduction? They are two closely related but different species, very like the examples cited.

Did you get a chance to examine any of the giants personally? I am curious about several physical traits (facial structure, skull shape, number of digits etc) as well as burial habits. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"If memory serves, there have been finds of human remains which show both Cromagnon and Neanderthal traits, a child in Israel and I think one in the Iberian peninsula somewhere, also an infant. While these could indeed prove that interbreeding did occur, the fact that the remains are that of an infant may point to some health/physical problem or even parental rejection (ancient tribes sometimes practiced "exposure" of any infant that appeared less than normal) though the fact that the one found in Israel had been buried would at least suggest that the child had not been deliberately allowed to die in the elements. Based on what evidence we have, it looks like there was little interbreeding and no successful offspring. As you have pointed out, in the science of archaeology (and anthropology, paleontolgy etc) the book is not written in stone, YET."

The evidence does seem to be slow in coming. It's possible that much more has been found than is published. Archaeologists don't like to seperate themselves too far from the herd.

[Though mounting genetic evidence (based on mitochondrial DNA extracted from fossils) suggests Neanderthals and early humans did not breed, the evidence has been inconclusive. It's possible, for example, that any Neanderthal gene “leakage” could have been lost through genetic drift if the mating populations were small. And because so few fossils are available to analyze, previous studies could rule out only Neanderthal contributions over 25%.

Since no Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA has been found in modern-day Europeans, the authors modeled the maximum number of interbreeding events that would support this observation. The estimated maximum number of events, it turns out, falls between 34 and 120—extremely low values, Currat and Excoffier conclude, “given the fact that the two populations must have coexisted for more than 12,000 years.”]

Perhaps they should not be looking at "modern-day Europeans".

And another voice:

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/814/humans-and-neanderthals-interbred?page=4

The "inconclusive evidence" is always the most interesting story to delve into. When you know all the answers, it can get a little boring.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Forgot to mention the fact that information of this nature flows at a snail's pace out of Siberia.
"The Paleolithic of Siberia" was only published in 1998, but the information in the book was compiled
at a much earlier date.

Not sure that has changed much since "98, but I am guessing not. I feel that a good deal of the kind
of evidence we are discussing will be coming from that corner of the World. Who knows when we will
see it.

http://www.archaeology.org/9611/newsbriefs/uptar.html

Take care,

Joe

 

[Peerless67]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Since this is not one of my strongest subjects, and not wanting to be left to far behind you better read guys, I have been doing a little reading. It would seem we have more Trex fossils than we have Neanderthal. Given the rather small amount of Neanderthal finds and the number of "crossbreed" finds made, I would say it would not be nonsense to state Neanderthal and "modern man" did interbreed.
I would say that the question is not did they breed, but rather why can we not see the evidence in our DNA. Unfortunately the answers to this will be left to scientists as it would apparently be beyond the scope of the average THer. But the subject is amazingly addictive, I do not believe I have read so much in some time.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Gary,

Just want to make sure I understand what you just posted. Are you calling us "average" While that may very well be true (Don Jose), you might be a little more genteel and mindful of our (easily bruised) psyches. Such comments could easily force the less secure participants in this conversation into a prolonged hiatus, or perpetual pout.

On the other hand, I would agree that the subject is "amazingly addictive".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Good afternon Joe, I hope that you are not competent with sabres. Oro or Peerless will be my representative. After I will have coffee with the seconds.

You will then understand what happened to the Neanderthal when you personally speak to them.

Don Jose de La Mancha (direct descendant of Cyrano, who by generic characteristics, passed on his renown ability)


--average---hmm sniffff

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

My dear friend Don Jose de La Mancha,

I was thinking of "average" on a much higher level of intelligence and learning. In that vein I would be gauging you against someone in the realm of Albert Einstein......etc. My post seemed overly long already, so I may have been a bit brusque and should have been more effusive with my meaning.

If it is too late to recall your seconds, I would need to insist on bringing my own weapon. You would need to clarify the type of sabre you would be using, heavy calvary or the lighter dueling/fencing blades. My own preference would be the Italian (naturally) blades of Pecoraro, or even Radaelli, while others might prefer the French blades of Boutet or Coullier.

While these blades would be a bit pricey today, at least when you assumed the En garde position, they would not sag. Not having a dueling budget, I would go with my favorite (cheapest) manufacturer.......Cold Steel. I own a number of their fine, modern-day, products.

I hope that you will accept my explanation, and apologize for any slight I may have given. Perhaps a cup of coffee would be a better solution.

Take care,

Joe (The Sicilian Blade)

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Remarkably well put as a gentleman of culture . As the challenged party you would , of course , have the choice of weapons and terms of engagement .
Might I suggest sledgehammers in 9 feet of water rather than edged weapons to satisfy a mere matter of honor ?
Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA my duelling amigos,

I seem to have missed something here, so I am going to try to piece this together. I beg your indulgence,

Peerless wrote

Unfortunately the answers to this will be left to scientists as it would apparently be beyond the scope of the average THer.

I think this was the passage referred to by our mutual amigo Cactusjumper, who then replied

Gary,

Just want to make sure I understand what you just posted. Are you calling us "average" While that may very well be true (Don Jose), you might be a little more genteel and mindful of our (easily bruised) psyches. Such comments could easily force the less secure participants in this conversation into a prolonged hiatus, or perpetual pout.

...which led to Don Jose' de la Mancha to respond,

Good afternon Joe, I hope that you are not competent with sabres. Oro or Peerless will be my representative. After I will have coffee with the seconds.

You will then understand what happened to the Neanderthal when you personally speak to them.

It appears that some misunderstanding has arisen here, for our amigo Peerless did not specify which THer's were "average" so any or all of us might be exempt? I think Joe's mention of Don Jose' was intended in fun, hence the smiley faces? I also suspect that Don Jose's response is also intended in fun, correct? Just want to find out where to proceed from here, but would like to respond to the posts.

To Peerless's statement, you are correct sir and I believe we all look forward to the new discoveries which are sure to come, hopefully in the near future. The archaeologists and anthropologists have some interesting "digs" and studies going on even as we speak, who knows what they will find?

To Cactusjumper's statement, I think there is little danger of bruising egos here, as they all seem to be built of granite! As you have said, anyone who participates in online forums ought to grow a rhino hide!

To Don Jose's statement, I stand ready and willing amigo, but am very much not the expert with sabres - however I do bleed freely and can scream with the best of them so ought to make quite a show of it!

Lastly, I lean toward agreeing with our amigo Truckinbutch, the choice of weapons he suggests sounds most appropriate!
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Jim,

I believe your suggestiion of "sledgehammers in 9 feet of water" is more than acceptable. As the party who has been challanged, I would have to insist that Don Jose enter the field of battle first, and I would follow.......shortly.

Take care,

Joe (free diver) Ribaudo

 

[Peerless67]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

"Just want to make sure I understand what you just posted. Are you calling us "average" "

Joe, Persish the thought , I was simply conducting and experiment to see what would be the weapon of choice in a conflict. It appears most went for a blade closely followed by sledge hammers.
From this I am able to deduct that there is no Neanderthal DNA in any of THers here, otherwise I would have expected to see rocks and clubs as the weapon of choice.
Of course Don Jose is exempt from these findings until I am able to obtain a swab.