Counterfeit metal detectors

[shawninNY]

I know minelab lost an entire shipment of gpx 5000 last year or the year before it was 1/2 million in merch. The grains list poster may have acquired from the stolen shipment . The #s where on the minelab site

 

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[shawninNY]

Mistake they where 4500 not 5000 model gpx

 

[Garrett424]

Counterfeits are illegal merchandise, contraband. Any counterfeit that arrives at the factory for any reason will be confiscated, and questions will be asked.

--Dave J.

So if I shell out money and get ripped off with a counterfeit, according to what you're saying it's no longer mine if I get you to authenticate it?? On top of that, I get interrogated and I possibly even risk prison?? No thanks. That's a TERRIBLE policy!! You guys need to step back and see the big picture. I fully "get" your position and dilemma but c'mon. There is a much better way.

That policy is a HUGE disincentive to anyone who is already angry, embarrassed and upset about being scammed with a bogus machine. Not only that, no one (with half a brain) will come forward and allow you to authenticate their machines if there's a risk of not getting them back. Fake or not, people have shelled out hard earned cash for those detectors.

You guys need a far better way to handle this. If you keep what I have bought and paid for, then I've been robbed twice; once by the scammer and then by you.
It would be far better to allow the victims to at least keep their fake machine in order to HELP YOU find out what the counterfeiters are up to. You can rip the label off or maybe permanently brand it a counterfeit in some way so it can't be resold under your brand.

From what I have heard and read, not all counterfeit detectors are necessarily terrible. I've read where some actually work fairly well. I've even seen a few YouTube videos of air tests of fake T2's that weren't all that bad. They're certainly nowhere near as good as the genuine article but SOME of them do at least work to one degree or another. Others are absolutely worthless junk.


The Chinese fake everything. This is the world we live in. Welcome to globalism. I'm not condoning it but that's the way it is. So inevitably, some people WILL wind up with a knock off at some point.

I've bought all of my machines used and as far as I know, they're all genuine and perform well. They're all First Texas products, two bounty Hunter's, a radio Shack (BH clone) and a Teknetics. I like all of them and have made it well known.


If I had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of a fake detector deal, I would HAPPILY and WILLINGLY allow you to examine, take apart, diagnose or even back engineer or whatever else you wanted to do with my fake in order to save some other individual from being scammed as I had been. That's IF I knew I could receive my property back in working order or be compensated for my willingness to help you.

Knowing I won't get it back would leave me NO choice but to keep completely quiet about it, thus leaving you in the dark about all the fakes that are truly out there and unable to make an accurate assessment.

I would already feel like a complete idiot for buying a fake machine and there's NO way I would willingly surrender it to anyone with ZERO compensation and a possible interrogation, arrest and even jail. Frankly, that would be FAR more stupid than buying a fake metal detector. If I did something that stupid, I would feel like an even bigger idiot for trying to "do the right thing" and getting reamed yet again. In fact, I WOULD be an even bigger idiot.


The world is filled with unscrupulous people and people looking to get over on companies as well as individuals. I suggest that you go after the perpetrators of the crime with the help and cooperation of the victims rather than subjecting them to a double robbery and possible prison sentence. It would be a huge win/win for all parties and be a far greater help in catching the real crooks.

Better yet, make a sweet deal for those who have already been scammed with bogus machines and offer a real incentive to come forward. Offer a reasonable trade; maybe one of your real detectors for any fakes that turn up with your name on them, a store credit, or at least some kind of reward. Make it attractive; maybe even a buy back program of some sort. What you save in the long run will far outweigh what you shell out now. Remember, you'll pay now or pay later.

Of course, the victims would need to prove that they legitimately thought they were buying the real thing. You wouldn't want an avalanche of fakes traded in for good detectors or cash but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to do it.

You need to think in " long run/big picture" terms rather than the short term. You'd also endear yourselves to loyal customers who genuinely WANT your genuine products for years to come. Someone like me who may buy used now may shell out the big bucks for that sweet upgrade later; once they realize how much they LOVE this hobby (hint hint).

I'm just givin' you my 2 cents but I have no doubt that many will agree that the current policy regarding counterfeit detectors offers no incentive to turn in the fakes or to drop a dime on the real crooks. In fact, it almost guarantees that NO ONE with any sense will come forward with the fakes. You'd have to be a complete idiot to willingly surrender you machine under the terms you stated.

FAR better to learn the lesson, write off the bogus machine as a loss and keep quiet rather than to come forward; ostensibly admitting guilt.


Please, PLEASE rethink this policy.

 

[woof!]

If a vendor rips you off by selling you stolen merchandise, your recourse is with (pick one of the following

1. The vendor who ripped you off.

2. The person from whom the merchandise was stolen.

3. The cops.

If you picked any number other than #1, try again.

Counterfeits embody stolen IP. It is illegal to import them. They are contraband, and if discovered they will be confiscated and returned to the owner of the IP.

You're demanding that if you send us property that was stolen from us, that we should return it to you? It ain't gonna happen!

* * * * *

You admit that you know that there are counterfeits, and you even admit that you purchase items from sellers who may be dealing in counterfeits. And rather than taking personal responsibility for the risk involved, you want us, who had nothing to do with the transaction (!) to accept responsibility for that risk!

Most people know that the general rule in business is that your recourse as a buyer, is with the seller. If you want recourse that's traceable back to the factory, you will buy through authorized distribution, that's what authorized distribution is. If you choose to forfeit factory-traceable authentication, you'll buy some other way. For example, if you're buying used from someone you don't know and trust, you know you may get burned. I'm not saying don't buy used from strangers, heck, we all do that from time to time. And we know the risk involved. If you want the product you're buying to be authenticated, require the seller to provide that authentication. We're not in the business of trying to help out people who got burned in transactions that we had nothing to do with.

However, if you're still pretty sure you want to do business with a manufacturer who promises to return counterfeits of their products, and that's not us, ......... well, I don't think you'll find any other manufacturer who will assure you of such a thing, but you're welcome to go ask 'em.

 

[Phantasman]

Well put, Woof. I spent my whole life as a burglar alarm/fire alarm systems design engineer. Stealing is stealing. Buying stolen ideas is no different than buying stolen property. Someone was burned in the process. I do not/will not support something that would question my own morals of decency. The overall cost isn't worth it.

 

[Garrett424]

You admit that you know that there are counterfeits, and you even admit that you purchase items from sellers who may be dealing in counterfeits. And rather than taking personal responsibility for the risk involved, you want us, who had nothing to do with the transaction (!) to accept responsibility for that risk!

Most people know that the general rule in business is that your recourse as a buyer, is with the seller. If you want recourse that's traceable back to the factory, you will buy through authorized distribution, that's what authorized distribution is. If you choose to forfeit factory-traceable authentication, you'll buy some other way. For example, if you're buying used from someone you don't know and trust, you know you may get burned. I'm not saying don't buy used from strangers, heck, we all do that from time to time. And we know the risk involved. If you want the product you're buying to be authenticated, require the seller to provide that authentication. We're not in the business of trying to help out people who got burned in transactions that we had nothing to do with.

I have never bought anything from anyone who I even remotely thought may be dealing in counterfeit merchandise nor I have I ever bought a counterfeit or endorsed the practice. I think it's a deplorable thing. Of course I "know" they exist. Everyone involved in this hobby knows. It's a widely known fact.

It's a widely known fact that the Chinese fake everything; even BMW's, Nimitz class aircraft carriers and stealth aircraft. In the big picture, metal detectors are small potatoes to these masters of IP theft. Our corrupt government even makes it really easy for them to continue these practices with the undeserved "most favored nation status". They (and corporate America and their lobbyists) sold every one of us down the river long ago.

My point is that IF I ever received one (which is HIGHLY unlikely), although I would like to, I have zero incentive to get you involved because your policy is basically a veiled threat. No thanks. You'll never know if one comes my way and you'll lose a valuable opportunity to combat the practice. That is, as long as your policy remains as stated above.

As for the cops, I wouldn't go to them either for much the same reason. I would just have to eat the loss and learn the lesson. That's the only sensible option after the fact. I'm not getting interrogated, arrested or going to prison for anybody; especially for being on the receiving end of a scam and coming forward. I sure wouldn't take that risk to protect intellectual property that isn't mine or to "do the right thing". Jails contain lots of people who tried to "do the right thing" and "cooperate" with "the law".


You simply need to make it easy to come forward and you'll soon see that the victims will be more than happy to comply. " No questions asked" rather than "questions will be asked" would be a fantastic start. Otherwise, you cannot reasonably expect anyone to show up under your current terms. I would bet that no one's beating a path to your doors at present.

I'm not asking you to take a loss but rather to make victims your partners in catching the real crooks. You do want us to buy genuine equipment right?? So make it easier on those who have been scammed rather than pointing fingers at them for something they have nothing to do with. In other words, don't hold the victim accountable for being on the receiving end of a crime. That makes no sense and just hurts those who genuinely want to buy your stuff. The second hand market is still a resource for your service department.

The ones you REALLY need to point the finger at are those who are manufacturing these things and not the poor *******s that get stuck with them.

You'll catch WAY more bees with honey than vinegar and I strongly suggest you re think your policy to reflect this simple truth. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Doubter in MD]

Long Range Locator.

Well put, Woof. I spent my whole life as a burglar alarm/fire alarm systems design engineer. Stealing is stealing. Buying stolen ideas is no different than buying stolen property. Someone was burned in the process. I do not/will not support something that would question my own morals of decency. The overall cost isn't worth it.

I know what LRL means. I just wasn't sure what he meant by "LRL Fraud Debunked".

 

[woof!]

G424, the counterfeiting industry would be delighted for us to act as after-sale validators at our expense of transactions we had nothing to do with, and to return known counterfeit merchandise to the buyer. However, not one legit manufacturer on the entire planet is stupid enough to support the counterfeiting industry in that way, and we aren't going to become the first. Not even the counterfeiting industry themselves are willing to support their own industry in that way!

Now that you've been told repeatedly that Fisher isn't going to support the counterfeiting industry, you could go post on the Garrett and Minelab and White's forums to see if you can talk them into it, but frankly I don't think you'll find your proposal gets much traction there either. The end game is the same place where it started: if you buy something that you shouldn't have bought, your recourse (if any) is with the vendor. Most 10-year-old kids grasp this principle, I expect adults to do the same. Your recourse is not with the legit manufacturer who was the nonconsenting other victim in the transaction.

* * * * *

And a point of clarification: If someone sends us a machine that turns out to be counterfeit, they aren't gonna get the machine back, and we will ask questions. However we are not threatening to give someone who was innocently deceived a hard time, but we do want to find out who the perp was. For that matter it's not inconceivable that we would reimburse the victim for their cost, out of gratitude for the information they provided us (although that possibility is not being suggested as a promise, for very obvious reasons).

 

[Garrett424]

G424, the counterfeiting industry would be delighted for us to act as after-sale validators at our expense of transactions we had nothing to do with, and to return known counterfeit merchandise to the buyer. However, not one legit manufacturer on the entire planet is stupid enough to support the counterfeiting industry in that way, and we aren't going to become the first. Not even the counterfeiting industry themselves are willing to support their own industry in that way!

Now that you've been told repeatedly that Fisher isn't going to support the counterfeiting industry, you could go post on the Garrett and Minelab and White's forums to see if you can talk them into it, but frankly I don't think you'll find your proposal gets much traction there either. The end game is the same place where it started: if you buy something that you shouldn't have bought, your recourse (if any) is with the vendor. Most 10-year-old kids grasp this principle, I expect adults to do the same. Your recourse is not with the legit manufacturer who was the nonconsenting other victim in the transaction.

* * * * *

And a point of clarification: If someone sends us a machine that turns out to be counterfeit, they aren't gonna get the machine back, and we will ask questions. However we are not threatening to give someone who was innocently deceived a hard time, but we do want to find out who the perp was. For that matter it's not inconceivable that we would reimburse the victim for their cost, out of gratitude for the information they provided us (although that possibility is not being suggested as a promise, for very obvious reasons).

Of course my recourse is with the vendor. That's a given. But if I get nowhere with that avenue, where do I turn next?? Not to you guys if doing so can land me in hot water when I'm already at a disadvantage.

My main point is that your current policy is a disincentive for the "scamee" to bring it to your attention. Allowing them to come to you openly with no fear of trouble will incentivise them to do so.

Your current policy IS keeping people from coming to you openly, putting you at a greater disadvantage than need be. Again, I would HAPPILY turn in a bogus machine and help you in every way possible but I would NOT if it could get me into legal trouble or in a position to suffer a second financial loss.

Just try my idea. Call for and publicize week of amnesty and see who shows up. Then you'll know. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. If I'm right, you'll have that much more information to work with and lots of machines to closely examine. You can see just how far the counterfeiters have gone as far as stealing your technology is concerned (or not). You can also learn new and more current information to warn would be rip off victims about.

Public libraries do this regularly. Do they get back every single book?? Nope. But they do get back WAY more than they would have?? Yup. You bet they do. That's why they keep doing it time after time.

If your end game is to get these things out of the marketplace and track down the counterfeiters and their networks, one of the best resources you have is those who get stuck with the machines. The have what you want to get your hands on. They have the details of the final transactions. Until they can safely come forward they will continue to have that information and you won't.

But, you'll never know unless you give it a shot.

 

[Garrett424]

Okay, I missed your above clarification. I feel much better.
It's good to know that you won't hold the victim accountable.

That was my whole problem in the first place. Your original statement reads like a veiled threat.

 

[woof!]

G424, anyone's welcome to come forward with evidence that they've been victimized by a counterfeiter. If for some reason they don't want to talk to the factory, let them publish the name of the criminal who victimized them right here on the forum. If it's practical for us to take legal action against the perp, we will. What's more, we usually share information on perps with our competitors who are fighting the same problems. Some of the biggest busts have been the result of competitors sharing intelligence.

If however you're demanding that counterfeit merchandise received by the factory be returned to whence we received it, we're not in the business of supplying counterfeit merchandise to the market. It won't happen. If you go asking our competitors if they're stupid enough to do such a thing, they'll probably give you the same answer you got here. But, they can speak for themselves, so if you decide to raise the issue on the other forums don't forget to let us know how it turns out................

 

[Carl-NC]

If you go asking our competitors if they're stupid enough to do such a thing, they'll probably give you the same answer you got here.

I know for a fact that 2 competitors of FTP will not return a counterfeit if it shows up for repair or authentication. Unfortunately, "buyer beware" is the rule with counterfeits, and if the price seems too good to be true...

 

[Keppy]

well look at this way if you try to pass a counterfeit $20.00 bill you did not know it was counterfeit and the store could tell it was .. You just lost $20.00 you will not get the bill back ..... so why do one's think they should get the detector back ?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

What happens when you pay for $300 worth of groceries and when you give cashier 3 $100 bills your told the bills are fake. Your out the money...


On another note thread is not about LRLs, LRL posts were deleted for being off topic.

 

[Garrett424]

well look at this way if you try to pass a counterfeit $20.00 bill you did not know it was counterfeit and the store could tell it was .. You just lost $20.00 you will not get the bill back ..... so why do one's think they should get the detector back ?

True, but if you knew in advance the 20 bucks was bogus you wouldn't try and pass it.

If I were to find out my detector was bogus today I would be reluctant to just turn it over; knowing that if I never mention it, no one would ever know but me.
I would have to seriously think about it after shelling out the cash for it; especially if it was performing well and locating good treasures for me.

I would rather have a working fake than nothing even if it didn't work as good as the real thing. I would just have to accept that I was stuck with a fake.

 

[Doubter in MD]

What happens when you pay for $300 worth of groceries and when you give cashier 3 $100 bills your told the bills are fake. Your out the money...


On another note thread is not about LRLs, LRL posts were deleted for being off topic.

I was just curious about woof's! (or is it woof!'s ?) tag line. I'm still not completely sure what it means but no worries. Thanks.

 

[Phantasman]

On another note thread is not about LRLs, LRL posts were deleted for being off topic.

I adjusted my post to comply. My apologies.

 

[Keppy]

True, but if you knew in advance the 20 bucks was bogus you wouldn't try and pass it.

If I were to find out my detector was bogus today I would be reluctant to just turn it over; knowing that if I never mention it, no one would ever know but me.
I would have to seriously think about it after shelling out the cash for it; especially if it was performing well and locating good treasures for me.

I would rather have a working fake than nothing even if it didn't work as good as the real thing. I would just have to accept that I was stuck with a fake.

If i knew it was fake but it worked well i would keep and use it also ... You can not sell it ... There is not much you can do with it but use it...

 

[Garrett424]

If i knew it was fake but it worked well i would keep and use it also ... You can not sell it ... There is not much you can do with it but use it...

True indeed.

 

[Escape]

I'm sure there is some problem with counterfeits. Haven't read an authoritative report on it containing the specifics. Just posted comments. The problem with all of it is that it creates a sense of fear in buying a used detector, which is a huge market. It seems to me that would be a boom for manufacturers. Not good for us us when we resell our detectors. I wouldn't be surprised if the manufactures have seen and are exploiting this aspect. Just my thoughts.