Copper tool

[Mintberrycrunch]

Found on a river near known Indian mounds I was hoping copper culture probably wishful thinking any thoughts. Update after sending out a few emails to people dealing in bronze artifacts I may have a lead I'll post the email

 

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[zombieraccoon]

first i confess i did not read the entire 20+ pages, so if this has been addressed previously, i opologize.
How do you know it is bronze ? preColumbian smelting was quite limited in the Americas. Before this however there was a gold/copper alloy called tumbaga. This had the appeareance of gold when polished and the appearance of bronze once tarnished. It may be worthwhile to do an analysis of the metal if you believe it is truly a native precolumbian artifact. (sometimes scrap yards have the machine to do this)

 

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[Clay Diggins]

first i confess i did not read the entire 200+ pages, so if this has been addressed previously, i opologize.
How do you know it is bronze ? preColumbian smelting was quite limited in the Americas. Before this however there was a gold/copper alloy called tumbaga. This had the appeareance of gold when polished and the appearance of bronze once tarnished. It may be worthwhile to do an analysis of the metal if you believe it is truly a native precolumbian artifact.

He had it analyzed and it has the composition of a modern brass, not bronze.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

first i confess i did not read the entire 20+ pages, so if this has been addressed previously, i opologize.
How do you know it is bronze ? preColumbian smelting was quite limited in the Americas. Before this however there was a gold/copper alloy called tumbaga. This had the appeareance of gold when polished and the appearance of bronze once tarnished. It may be worthwhile to do an analysis of the metal if you believe it is truly a native precolumbian artifact. (sometimes scrap yards have the machine to do this)

here's the composition

 

[zombieraccoon]

Ahh well then that narrows it down some. My first thought was some type if kitchen utensil or specialty tool where you are trying to avoid scratching or marring a piece that is being set. Short of that, perhaps its what the Vikings used to unlock the doors of their spaceships.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

Ahh well then that narrows it down some. My first thought was some type if kitchen utensil or specialty tool where you are trying to avoid scratching or marring a piece that is being set. Short of that, perhaps its what the Vikings used to unlock the doors of their spaceships.

By narrow it down you mean sometime within the last 2000 years? Or do you have a closer estimation?

 

[zombieraccoon]

i believe all precolumbian copper alloys consisted of arsenic and nickel, they did not use zinc alloys in the americas. It woukd take some research but thats what I remember reading somewhere when researching some old bronze slave bracelets I came upon.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

Mound builder brass artifacts. They made other things out of copper zinc based alloys. Or traded for them. Sometimes the most obvious.

 

[zombieraccoon]

Well the composition is leaded brass or "commercial bronze". I know when I hade the bracelets I found tested they had a much higher tin and zinc content. This helped significantly in dating them, and eventually with some research it was concluded that they were most likely Roman. While I cant say I know the composition of every metal and where and when it was used, I do know that information is readily available, and that paryicular composition has been popular for a few hundred years. Processes evolve over time. While its always possible to find anomolies in history (Ulfberht swords, middle eastern damascus, etc.) My opinion, and thats all it is, is that given the evidence of composition and style, the piece is more likely 200 yrs old +/- 75 years

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

Well the composition is leaded brass or "commercial bronze". I know when I hade the bracelets I found tested they had a much higher tin and zinc content. This helped significantly in dating them, and eventually with some research it was concluded that they were most likely Roman. While I cant say I know the composition of every metal and where and when it was used, I do know that information is readily available, and that paryicular composition has been popular for a few hundred years. Processes evolve over time. While its always possible to find anomolies in history (Ulfberht swords, middle eastern damascus, etc.) My opinion, and thats all it is, is that given the evidence of composition and style, the piece is more likely 200 yrs old +/- 75 years

Since you know when it was made. Do you know what it was used for or a guess?

 

[zombieraccoon]

Since you know when it was made. Do you know what it was used for or a guess?

Well generally brass tools are preferred when dealing with mamufacture or repair of other metals or materials which are hard, but you wish to avoid scratching or scarring the surface.
My best guess would be that it is some type of hand tool to either hold something in place or to force something into place, during manufacturing or repair. Doesnt really help much, but the fact that it is brass really limits its possible uses in those fields

 

[veronasteve]

I've not read all the opinions and expert views....but if this was found in the UK ,you would think Roman or Celtic ,or at least i would. I suppose there is always the chance back in ancient times objects found themselves transported/traded to places they wouldn't normally be found. You want to think , hope it's Viking or something from long boats that made it across the Atlantic........maybe its Aztec...good mystery item!

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

Well generally brass tools are preferred when dealing with mamufacture or repair of other metals or materials which are hard, but you wish to avoid scratching or scarring the surface.
My best guess would be that it is some type of hand tool to either hold something in place or to force something into place, during manufacturing or repair. Doesnt really help much, but the fact that it is brass really limits its possible uses in those fields

Ok so know I know roughly when it was made. And most likely what it was used for. Last question how was it manufactured? In a factory that made the tools used in manufacturing? You also mentioned the style of the object being around 200 years. Do you have any pictures of similar objects from that time frame?

 

[Boonieguy]

What’s are the odds of it holding a small magnifying lens ? My mom found this in her creek years ago . Kinda reminds me in a way.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

I did send an email to check the status of the request for a follow up from the duty curator. No reply. I do expect some sort of response not sure how long it’s going to take. I hope they aren’t just ignoring me.

 

[HuntinDog]

MBC,
Glad to see you are not giving up on this treasure.
I think it's a very cool piece and needs to be ID'd.
I can offer you no advice on what it may be and I wish you the best of luck in your search.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Mound builder brass artifacts. They made other things out of copper zinc based alloys. Or traded for them. Sometimes the most obvious.

There is no evidence the Mound Builders ever worked in brass or zinc or that they alloyed or cast any metals. They did cold work native copper into some very clever shapes.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

There is no evidence the Mound Builders ever worked in brass or zinc or that they alloyed or cast any metals. They did cold work native copper into some very clever shapes.

Here’s an article I randomly found the other night I’m sure you can find it if you want to read the whole thing. And if you look into it you can find a lot of information on brass artifacts found in mounds copper zinc based alloys

 

[Clay Diggins]

Here’s an article I randomly found the other night I’m sure you can find it if you want to read the whole thing. And if you look into it you can find a lot of information on brass artifacts found in mounds copper zinc based alloys

The article itself states that the glass, brass, iron, copper and silver found in the mounds indicate the visit of a Catholic missionary.

Natives of North America did not mine zinc or iron, smelt metals or cast metals. They did not make glass objects or Copper kettles. Brass was never created in native North America. Brass does not form an alloy with Lead because Lead does not dissolve in Copper. The Brass in your piece contains lead and it was cast. It could not be a pre-colombian native American made article.

I do find your found piece interesting. I would like to know when it was created and for what purpose. Following down the fantasy trail of thinking it could be native American made is a major departure from the known facts about the piece and is counter productive if you really want to know what it is. I'll keep looking for an answer to your question but that answer not going to be found in a mound.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

The article itself states that the glass, brass, iron, copper and silver found in the mounds indicate the visit of a Catholic missionary.

Natives of North America did not mine zinc or iron, smelt metals or cast metals. They did not make glass objects or Copper kettles. Brass was never created in native North America. Brass does not form an alloy with Lead because Lead does not dissolve in Copper. The Brass in your piece contains lead and it was cast. It could not be a pre-colombian native American made article.

I do find your found piece interesting. I would like to know when it was created and for what purpose. Following down the fantasy trail of thinking it could be native American made is a major departure from the known facts about the piece and is counter productive if you really want to know what it is. I'll keep looking for an answer to your question but that answer not going to be found in a mound.

Thank you any help is appreciated. This was the part I really found interesting

 

[Clay Diggins]

Thank you any help is appreciated. This was the part I really found interesting

Even if the unnamed archeologist was correct in their unfounded assumptions about a native Bronze Age it does not follow that they could make brass alloy. Bronze and Brass are two very different metals requiring entirely different levels of technology to create.

The Tin needed to make bronze can be found in nature in it's elemental form just as copper is. The only technology required after you have mined those rare natural deposits is the ability to build a furnace that could melt Copper and Tin in the right proportions in a reducing flux. The mystery archaeologist doesn't address the fact that Tin was unknown to the natives or that no furnace or flux, or for that matter bronze, has ever been found.

Brass requires zinc and there is no evidence natives ever mined the ore of zinc. There is no elemental form of zinc found in nature. Smelting Zinc ore requires an advanced knowledge of metallurgy. Just roasting zinc ores will not produce zinc metal but the fumes sure will kill you quick.

Brass is much later in the timeline of prehistoric metallurgy because of the lack of elemental zinc and the advanced science needed to extract it from ore. No native created brass has every been found nor is there any evidence they had the tools or knowledge to do so.