Continuum

[JohnWhite]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/614243-continuum-11.html#post6274597

I finally had time to finish Esteban, by Dennis Herrick. It was an interesting read. Most of the narrative detailing the disastrous 1528 Panfilo de Narvaez Expedition and the Cabeza de Vaca party survival odyssey to Mexico - both including Esteban - is drawn from numerous earlier sources. Likewise, the Marcos de Niza Cibola Expedition, led by Esteban serving as scout, has been covered by many.

Herrick points out that scant first-hand mention of Esteban is made in any historical records. Being a slave - essentially a non-human to the Spanish - he is primarily identified as "the negro." His given name is referred to only a few times in the reports, and is usually called Estavanico, a diminished reference. By the time the de Vaca party reached Mexico City in 1536, the three Spaniard survivors were greeted as heros, while Esteban remained a slave.

When none of the three Spaniards were available to accompany de Niza to Cibola in 1539, Esteban was chosen. The author points out that all reports of Esteban's activities in New Mexico were second-hand at best and wildly inconsistent. Even his reported death at Zuni was unwitnessed, but inferred. Some Zuni oral traditions maintain that he was killed, but other Zuni sources claim he was not. It's alleged that Esteban, with the help of Zunis and other Natives who admired him, but not the Spanish, conspired to fake his death and relieve him of his slave status.

No mention was made in the book of any resolution to the Cibola rumors or any gold found during the de Niza expedition. The gist was that Esteban took advantage of an opportunity to go Native.

And how big was the cross

Here is a cool tune...Too bad they don't play the bowl anymore... Retirement gets boring... They used to sell it out every year...

Ed T

 

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[arcana-exploration]

some of the paper maps are intriguing such as the fish map and the perfil map but alot of the maps floating around are probably bogus

True as is the info on the PMS. Many appear to be made by people who either were leading the reader to much of nothing, just their own delusions or they failed drawing and map-making 101, or both.

A side note, since we posted a donation tag on our we have never linked it, We thought, very early on about an investor, and the tag was to see if we might get someone who was a heavy hitter. We soon cooled to that I idea early on, It never felt right to me. We have not taken We do not need or want any mulligans. Often info on this site has been very useful, that we gladly take in, and appreciate the shared knowledge. Hope everyone has a safe weekend, I am l out the door for Cleveland, for tomorrow nights Browns-Rams game in Cleveland, front row seats on the wall in the Dog Pound. Thanks, Jeff.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Meant to say the PMSs are legit Many other maps another story. Also left out donation tag TAG ON OUR "site" has been removed. Every rubble and skinned knees are ours.

 

[azdave35]

Meant to say the PMSs are legit Many other maps another story. Also left out donation tag TAG ON OUR "site" has been removed. Every rubble and skinned knees are ours.

those stone maps are nothing but doorstops...only a greenhorn would waste time trying to decipher them...they only lead to financial ruin , divorce and misery ..every dutch hunter has had their turn with them and finally came to the conclusion they are worthless..after they had lost everything they own....you are trying awful hard to convince me you aren't looking for investors...but i don't buy it

 

[dredgernaut]

I am not trying to argue. I have not read their site. I am just curious as to what is so wrong with having investors. Hypothetically speaking here: If one were to see enough proof (actually see and hold said proof) and felt compelled to financially assist in a search. where is the fault in that. (I am not interested, this is hypothetical)
Most likely the financier is going to get frustrated at some point when no progress is made. Even more likey IF the searcher did find something, they may not share. greed is always a problem. however isn't the investor also greedy to a point if they are willing to invest for profit .. In the end they both usually fail together.
But sometimes thats the price of dreaming so big.
I don't know anything. i was just curious. sorry. dont get mad.

 

[Oroblanco]

I am not trying to argue. I have not read their site. I am just curious as to what is so wrong with having investors. Hypothetically speaking here: If one were to see enough proof (actually see and hold said proof) and felt compelled to financially assist in a search. where is the fault in that. (I am not interested, this is hypothetical)
Most likely the financier is going to get frustrated at some point when no progress is made. Even more likey IF the searcher did find something, they may not share. greed is always a problem. however isn't the investor also greedy to a point if they are willing to invest for profit .. In the end they both usually fail together.
But sometimes thats the price of dreaming so big.
I don't know anything. i was just curious. sorry. dont get mad.

OK now I am raging mad dredgernaut! I am kidding and your point is correct, really there should not be anything wrong with seeking financial backers. Heck there is even a term for it in prospecting known as "grubstaking" and most of the western states have laws concerning grubstaking, spelling out the rights of the investor and the prospector. Heck I am always looking for a financial investor for some future project, unfortunately few investors want to risk their money on such long odds of finding a treasure. Plus I don't like to give out too many details to someone that doesn't have a vested interest.

The trouble is that there have been SO many con men and frauds and especially concerning the LDM, Peralta Stones and the Superstition mountains it automatically raises red flags when anyone hints at wanting money for some hidden mine or treasure located there. Heck one guy made quite a career out of defrauding investors and blackmailing as well, Crazy Jake.

Anyway agreed and amen it is perfectly okay to seek investors, just need to be 100% honest about it in my opinion.

 

[dredgernaut]

thanks. agreed and understood. just thought i would ask

 

[azdave35]

thanks. agreed and understood. just thought i would ask

the first red flag would be that why would 5 guys that have already found the mine need investors?...according to them they found it...done deal....and if they did need investors how would they pay the investors back...the mine is in a wilderness and they cant do anything with it...so there is no profit...how would the investors recoup their investment?.if they think they are going to get rich writing a book they are wrong...alot of people around here have written books and are still broke.....like roy said..those stone maps only draw con men to our city ...every time one of them rolls through here they cause nothing but trouble

 

[arcana-exploration]

the first red flag would be that why would 5 guys that have already found the mine need investors?...according to them they found it...done deal....and if they did need investors how would they pay the investors back...the mine is in a wilderness and they cant do anything with it...so there is no profit...how would the investors recoup their investment?.if they think they are going to get rich writing a book they are wrong...alot of people around here have written books and are still broke.....like roy said..those stone maps only draw con men to our city ...every time one of them rolls through here they cause nothing but trouble

We are self-funded and have been since the beginning. All of us being successful business owners in our own businesses, early on we thought it might be good business, to bring in a partner, but we realized we did not need any partners, we have enough, of our own money why to bring in an outsider. The answer was simple no investors, we are a tight, group and we all have, more than enough disposable income so why risk bring in an outsider, that may not fit in. We do not owe anybody and do not want or need to answer to anyone. It sounds like other than Bob Schuss, everyone else looking in Arizona cannot grubstake themselves. We are frugal and have been successful all our lives so we have the means to do whatever we please, I do not care what you believe, it appears you are fixated with money, people who have it do not obsess on it, our pockets are deep enough, and we choose to go it alone. I guess if you have not made it, it is hard to believe, that there are people out there that can find their own way, and do not need aa village.

 

[azdave35]

We are self-funded and have been since the beginning. All of us being successful business owners in our own businesses, early on we thought it might be good business, to bring in a partner, but we realized we did not need any partners, we have enough, of our own money why to bring in an outsider. The answer was simple no investors, we are a tight, group and we all have, more than enough disposable income so why risk bring in an outsider, that may not fit in. We do not owe anybody and do not want or need to answer to anyone. It sounds like other than Bob Schuss, everyone else looking in Arizona cannot grubstake themselves. We are frugal and have been successful all our lives so we have the means to do whatever we please, I do not care what you believe, it appears you are fixated with money, people who have it do not obsess on it, our pockets are deep enough, and we choose to go it alone. I guess if you have not made it, it is hard to believe, that there are people out there that can find their own way, and do not need aa village.

you said in another post that you were out of funds...now you say you have deep pockets..which is it?...i have nothing against rich people....i just don't like con men

 

[arcana-exploration]

you said in another post that you were out of funds...now you say you have deep pockets..which is it?...i have nothing against rich people....i just don't like con men

As usual, you misrepresent, what I stated. ! What I stated in an earlier thread, was that at the beginning of this whole venture, was that about 4 or so years ago we all agreed that we would each contribute, a set amount of personal time and money to this project, and when we reached, the agreed amount in both personal money and time spent, that if we had not reached our goal of discovery, we would not invest any more time or money, to the effort. What we did not realize was 4 years ago was that we would be so close, to our goal, and that we would need one more push to get all the way up. This now left us with a tuff decision. Being business, men we wanted to succeed being so close, but also not use any more disposable income. Then a while back Capt Dave hit an Ohio scratch off for a Million dollars. He wanted a team meeting, so we meet for a few brewski's and he proposed, that it was fate that he won a bunch of money, and likewise fate that we suppose to go on this last trip. He proposed, that we would not be breaking our original agreement if he underwrote the trip, with a loan to Arcana. Also that any money that came in from the book would repay him. Everyone has a piece of the book, but the first money would go to him, to cover the interest-free loan. Everyone had to agree. Rodger made the point that we would reach our goal if we could get all the way up, whatever was or was not up there and that our story shared in the book, would be more or less complete, otherwise to get that close and stop would make for a an uneventful ending and sort of failer and that the book would do better, if we reached our goal. We had unfinished business, and we absolutely now knew how to get up there. So we voted, and all agreed, that this keeps the original agreement intact, and also let's finish the project with our own money. We had come this far on our own dime, let's finish that way. The team all said they would have an empty feeling if we did not get up, getting up there had become a very important goal, like Rodger said even if there was just a taco stand up there.

He which icon do you use on this site to upload something? Copy and paste?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

There are 2 things that will set-off a lot of folks in AZ: telling them you've found the LDM and bringing up the subject of needing just a bit more money...or trying to sell a map to the LDM.

Any time the subject of maps or money comes up, I run in the other direction. People are smart and are still coming up with new scams and still burning people to this day. One of the best things I think guys like Tom K. and Greg Davis ever did (among many others) was publish all the maps they could get their hands on...if someone wants to sell maps now, they have to come up with new ones people don't have to buy fake maps anymore, they can get as many as they want.

 

[Blindbowman]

LMAO you got to be joking .the Gonzales map Bob showed Wayne Tuttle in 2015 was a real map to the mine ,. but bob had no idea how to translate that map and Wayne went off with out a clue ... if you want to find something out there you need a seer ... and your talking to one of the best . I saw that Gonzales map and read it in a few seconds ... its not the maps fault, its none of you know the correctly way to translate it ...I have ask Wayne and Frank and their team to joint expedition 7 . if they say no . I will wait .. its not going anywhere soon ...lol

 

[sdcfia]

There are 2 things that will set-off a lot of folks in AZ: telling them you've found the LDM and bringing up the subject of needing just a bit more money...or trying to sell a map to the LDM.

Any time the subject of maps or money comes up, I run in the other direction. People are smart and are still coming up with new scams and still burning people to this day. One of the best things I think guys like Tom K. and Greg Davis ever did (among many others) was publish all the maps they could get their hands on...if someone wants to sell maps now, they have to come up with new ones people don't have to buy fake maps anymore, they can get as many as they want.

Yeah, it always brings me to the question: why in the world would anyone believe that a genuine treasure map would ever be available to any and all of us hopeful mutts?

Re the current PSM discussion: OK, just quit talking about what you're going to do and go do it.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

LMAO you got to be joking .the Gonzales map Bob showed Wayne Tuttle in 2015 was a real map to the mine ,. but bob had no idea how to translate that map and Wayne went off with out a clue ... if you want to find something out there you need a seer ... and your talking to one of the best . I saw that Gonzales map and read it in a few seconds ... its not the maps fault, its none of you know the correctly way to translate it ...I have ask Wayne and Frank and their team to joint expedition 7 . if they say no . I will wait .. its not going anywhere soon ...lol

Now that you bring it up...you're right, if I ever looked for the LDM I would rather have a "seer" over one of those fake maps Best of luck to you BB, hope you find it.

 

[Blindbowman]

Now that you bring it up...you're right, if I ever looked for the LDM I would rather have a "seer" over one of those fake maps Best of luck to you BB, hope you find it.

I already did that's what I have been trying to get expedition 7 ready ...and sorry that map is not a fake ....bob just did not know how to read it and he told Wayne how to read it . then both of them had no idea how to read it .. just crazy white men ...Bob may have sold some fake maps in his days but that was not one of them ...

 

[Blindbowman]

expedition 7 goal is the seven caves I don't care about the LDM ...

 

[arcana-exploration]

Yeah, it always brings me to the question: why in the world would anyone believe that a genuine treasure map would ever be available to any and all of us hopeful mutts?

Re the current PSM discussion: OK, just quit talking about what you're going to do and go do it.

You are exactly correct on this point, I have been thinking the same thing, plus a person can spend a lot of time on this great site talking to ya all, and I really now need to spend the time elsewhere. So I will try to disappear, until February, good health to all. Thanks, Jeff.

 

[azdave35]

As usual, you misrepresent, what I stated. ! What I stated in an earlier thread, was that at the beginning of this whole venture, was that about 4 or so years ago we all agreed that we would each contribute, a set amount of personal time and money to this project, and when we reached, the agreed amount in both personal money and time spent, that if we had not reached our goal of discovery, we would not invest any more time or money, to the effort. What we did not realize was 4 years ago was that we would be so close, to our goal, and that we would need one more push to get all the way up. This now left us with a tuff decision. Being business, men we wanted to succeed being so close, but also not use any more disposable income. Then a while back Capt Dave hit an Ohio scratch off for a Million dollars. He wanted a team meeting, so we meet for a few brewski's and he proposed, that it was fate that he won a bunch of money, and likewise fate that we suppose to go on this last trip. He proposed, that we would not be breaking our original agreement if he underwrote the trip, with a loan to Arcana. Also that any money that came in from the book would repay him. Everyone has a piece of the book, but the first money would go to him, to cover the interest-free loan. Everyone had to agree. Rodger made the point that we would reach our goal if we could get all the way up, whatever was or was not up there and that our story shared in the book, would be more or less complete, otherwise to get that close and stop would make for a an uneventful ending and sort of failer and that the book would do better, if we reached our goal. We had unfinished business, and we absolutely now knew how to get up there. So we voted, and all agreed, that this keeps the original agreement intact, and also let's finish the project with our own money. We had come this far on our own dime, let's finish that way. The team all said they would have an empty feeling if we did not get up, getting up there had become a very important goal, like Rodger said even if there was just a taco stand up there.

He which icon do you use on this site to upload something? Copy and paste?

same old story i've heard from a dozen or more stone mappers...they go in the mountains thinking it would be easy ..then when they find out their theory was wrong and they've spent all their dough..then they start hitting up friends and family...when those bridges are burnt they start bumming from the general public...so far we have heard your entire life story and still no proof that you have the ldm...you are going about this the wrong way...if you really have something you should have gathered up all your facts..gone to the forest service..they would have rounded up some of the local historians (such as tom kollenborn and clay worst) and they would have visited your site with you..they would have told you right then what you had and if it was worth pursuing ...but you chose to go public with no facts or proof and you wonder why you are being doubted?..

 

[Oroblanco]

expedition 7 goal is the seven caves I don't care about the LDM ...

Glad to hear that - I would not want a seer hunting the LDM and finding it before I can!

Dave - amen to that. I wonder why these fellows that come on T-net proclaiming to the world that they have found the LDM never just contact the news media and make a public announcement?