Continuum

[Hal Croves]

6.Never, ever trust anything that any government employee or agent with discretionary authority says. Don't contact any of them prior to your venture.

Perform your expedition, being careful to follow all published rules and regulations to a T for the area(s) you're investigating. Assign a team member to video all aspects of the project - add timestamp and geotag to all media. Map the entire locale and document all finds in situ, being careful to not disturb any structural or natural components, per published regulations. Be certain no damage or artifact removals have occurred, and that you can prove it. 1. Do everything by the book. When you've found what you came for and have the data, leave and keep your collective mouths shut.

Prepare a quality presentation that reveals all you want to say - 2. a high-res video documentary, a report, a book, a lecture, an exhibition, or all these. Hire a professional if necessary and get a credentialed and open-minded archaeologist or historian on board (if you can find one). Release your presentation to the public, 3. after absolving yourself of any legal liabilities that might be levied against you by any parties for divulging the location(s) of your discoveries.

If your claims have legs, 4. the government will be obliged to 1) admit your discoveries are significant (which will add credibility to your claims); and 2) oblige them to develop plans that will protect the site(s) and encourage them and others to advance their own interpretations of the data. The debates will follow. 5. You may be left in the dust at this point, but your original work, if done correctly, will be available as a baseline for all to use.

1. Get a permit.

2. When is a permit required for commercial filming? “Creation of a product for sale, including a film, videotape, digital image, television broadcast, or documentary (e.g. wildlife, natural or historic features, etc.) created for the purpose of generating income;”. If you are not looking to generate revenue from your efforts, why not. Think ahead!

3. They wouldn’t have to if they “followed all published rules and regulations to a T”. Follow this logic and factor in attorney fees, fines and whatever it takes to absolve oneself of legal liabilities. Could take years and $$$$.

4. Should your discovery have “legs”, these things would be self evident. Protecting cultural heritage sites is their (the FS) collective motivation. And today, the pressure of social media is enough to straighten even the most crooked arrow.

5. Yes, you most certainly will.

6. A sad commentary for sure.

I wouldn’t follow this advice if I were looking to recover some of the expensives involved, but ultimately they will choose their own path. Either way, I wish them success.

 

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[Hal Croves]

To play the devil's advocate a bit here: The Forest Service has a very hard time trying to protect remote sites. Nobody can guard them 24/7. People ABSOLUTELY destroy them. Whether its defacing a petroglyph, or chiseling out a million year old human footprint from a Texas River bedrock. Asinine people do asinine things.

The answer to the FS question for your credentials:

"I don't have any professional reason for viewing the site. I am a very good risk though. By coming here, if anything happens to the site, you can call me first!"

Mike

Among my many other faults, I think that I may suffer some from ODD, oppositional defiant disorder.
🤺

 

[azdave35]

Hey, Hal thanks for the info. Hal this is a sincere, question, I have studied the regulations, at length, and will make sure we do nothing illegal. So the Question is guys on this site talk about things they have discovered all the time, that is historic. Often they share the location, how is that really so different, than what we are doing. First, we have formed Aracana Exploration, for inhouse issues, basically so in the event that anyone gets injured or worse, no one can legally, hold the other accountable financially. We are a bunch of guys hiking and having a great time, who may have found something of interest, and are going back on one shared vacation to see what we might have found. We are not a production company, we are not mining for gold, anything we find we photograph only, we are not digging any holes, or taking anything. If we find some loose Qwartz gold we may keep a couple of samples for verification. And we are telling our story about 6 friends that are on an unlikely journey together, and though not professionals truly amateurs, we are trying to things the right way, being safe, legal and fun also. If we interested in mining gold or taking artifacts we would not be so open. One of the things we talked about is that we need to do things the right way. One of our team members taught Eco-Tourism and like us he is all about doing things the proper way. I had written about 4 more paragraphs but I have lost it and do not have time to rewrite now but will try to finish tonight. Hal one quick question lets say, someone discovers something that would likely prove that Atzlan existed( just hypo) would that not be something important to the Meso-American community and should be know but also protected and studied by people expert in that field. Not us of course but sharing and protecting could insure that. thanks Hal Jeff.

"So the Question is guys on this site talk about things they have discovered all the time, that is historic. Often they share the location, how is that really so different, than what we are doing. First, we have formed Aracana Exploration, for inhouse issues, basically so in the event that anyone gets injured or worse, ".

..probably because you are trying to rope in investors...anytime one of you promoters come on here asking for something we get suspicious...you are not the first to come to the superstition mountains with claims of finding the LDM and asking for investors...there have been dozens before you...some of which went to prison for fraudulent schemes

 

[Riverbum]

sdfia,
You are absolutely correct about "Keeping your mouth shut" about a find until you have ALL your "ducks" in a row. The Forest Service and Uncle Sam act a bit differently when you mention GOLD at anytime to these folks. From Personal Experience, these guys are BEARS to deal with.

 

[Hal Croves]

"So the Question is guys on this site talk about things they have discovered all the time, that is historic. Often they share the location, how is that really so different, than what we are doing. First, we have formed Aracana Exploration, for inhouse issues, basically so in the event that anyone gets injured or worse, ".

..probably because you are trying to rope in investors...anytime one of you promoters come on here asking for something we get suspicious...you are not the first to come to the superstition mountains with claims of finding the LDM and asking for investors...there have been dozens before you...some of which went to prison for fraudulent schemes

I didn’t realize that they were looking for investors. I thought that the group had spotted an archeological site, perhaps containing precious metals or a Trove, and were simply looking to make a historical contribution. Any investor would be equally liable if they were to knowingly back an illegal venture into the Superstitions, not to mention if one of the team were hurt or killed.

Yikes.

 

[Al D]

I didn’t realize that they were looking for investors. I thought that the group had spotted an archeological site, perhaps containing precious metals or a Trove, and were simply looking to make a historical contribution. Any investor would be equally liable if they were to knowingly back an illegal venture into the Superstitions, not to mention if one of the team were hurt or killed.

Yikes.

Their web site makes it pretty clear

 

[Al D]

Something strange going on with the quotes

 

[Hal Croves]

sdfia,
You are absolutely correct about "Keeping your mouth shut" about a find until you have ALL your "ducks" in a row. The Forest Service and Uncle Sam act a bit differently when you mention GOLD at anytime to these folks. From Personal Experience, these guys are BEARS to deal with.

Even the most ferocious beasts have a soft spot.

 

[Hal Croves]

Their web site makes it pretty clear

Can you post a link?

 

[Al D]

https://lost-dutchman-goldmine.com/final-clues/

 

[Hal Croves]

https://lost-dutchman-goldmine.com/final-clues/

Thank you alan m.

It most certainly is a commercial venture.
I don't have anything more to contribute.

 

[Al D]

Thank you alan m.

It most certainly is a commercial venture.
I don't have anything more to contribute.

Glad to be of assistance Hal

 

[sdcfia]

Thank you alan m.

It most certainly is a commercial venture.
I don't have anything more to contribute.

I can tell you from personal experience that if I believed I had located such a target, I would: 1) cover all my own expenses regardless of the sacrifices and hardships required to continue; and 2) reveal nothing to anyone except insiders until the project was completed.

There is no Mission Statement for the group other than several references to a future book. That's fine - nothing wrong with books. There is a request for funds, which a red flag for me. Are contributors granted some sort of a partnership in the venture with immediate full disclosure of all facts, or is it just a go-fund-me type of deal, which seems the most likely? There's a big, big difference in the two and the second option is troubling ... see 1) in the paragraph above.

The website also puzzles me. I see no reason for it other than the call for money. A definitive discovery of this alleged magnitude should be self-evident when the book is published.

 

[arcana-exploration]

"So the Question is guys on this site talk about things they have discovered all the time, that is historic. Often they share the location, how is that really so different, than what we are doing. First, we have formed Aracana Exploration, for inhouse issues, basically so in the event that anyone gets injured or worse, ".

..probably because you are trying to rope in investors...anytime one of you promoters come on here asking for something we get suspicious...you are not the first to come to the superstition mountains with claims of finding the LDM and asking for investors...there have been dozens before you...some of which went to prison for fraudulent schemes

Actually, I am glad you brought that up, that was suggested to why not take some donation to offset our personal costs, we were never really comfortable, with that and the donation thing is coming down after we meet with our site guy next week. Also, I got a G-mail response from a Dr in Germany who wanted to go up with the team and said he would pay half the expenses or more, I ran it buy the guys, and because of our team is very close, and compatible( a must for safety concerns) they said he would have to be an expert mountain climber, plus compatible with the guys. He had no climbing experience. He sought us out, offered us a good bit of money and we turned him down. We have pretty much done this on our own dime, 5 guys from Ohio 4 time figure it out. We had pretty much got to our agreed, personal limits, of what we would spend, so it was tuff to turn down the German Dr's offer. What you have to realize is that everything including personal and group challenges is going to be in the book. It is funny how things are just meant to happen, and sometimes lady fate steps. About three weeks after we turned down the Dr's offer, Capt Dave one of our team members called me and ask how things were going for our trip, I said the guys are training doing repelling, and we two professional climbers, that are great guys and Rodger and Davey like them, and they are going with us. But we all agreed no one is taping retirement funds or savings, so we kind of is on hold for now. Dave says I will unwrite the trip, but the first money, from the book, pays me back, (we have been best friends since 1983) I said absolutely. I said you cannot take it out of savings. He says, well this morning I was getting coffee at the UDF and the guy in front of me bought 7, 30 dollar Ohio lottery scratch-offs, I knew him from softball so we talked while he scratched his tickets off, $210.00 dollars all losers. Dave says I seldom buy those things but I was sure the next ticket likely was $50 or $100 so I bought one ticket and went to the car, fastened my seat belt started the car and pulled the ticket out of my shirt pocket, scratched it off it was a Million dollar instant winner. So I will loan the money to fund the trip. I have a picture of him and his wife with the ticket, I took for the book, it is part of our unbelievable, I will post it tomorrow so you can see it. Fate is a funny thing, maybe we are the ones to find things of significance. As to your comments about raising money for fraudulent purposes, we have not used one penny from an outside source ( not even the site, we closed that access down, I did not like it, we just need to get the tag removed). So we have spent our own money, and we will finish using our own funds out of are pockets only. So to insinuate that this is a Ponzi skim to raise money is laughable, we would be the dumbest crooks in the world. We are not bottom feeders and have our own means, and have spent all our own monies because we believe we have something and want to finish our quest. My guys are all straight shooters, and to infer is just flat wrong. If we make money from telling our story in the book we can recoupe some of what we ourselves have spent. We are not looking for partners, the money we are just fine and in the end, we will and are totally self-funded. And actually speaking we all have spent about what we would for a high- end vacation every year. If what we find on our next trip is not what we think, it is not the end of the world for us, we all have other interests, and can have all these great memories and the comradery shared in the Superstition Mountains. Thanks, Jeff.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Their web site makes it pretty clear

Hey Allan, We started the site on the suggestion of our editor, and book agent, saying it would help with the book, just be careful not to keep the best stuff for the book. Look at all the people who have wrote books, and looked for the LDM, if a book only telling our story and what we have discovered, but not mining and taking nothing historical, if that is a commercial venture being like Helen Corbin Tom K Wayne Tuttle are commercial also commercial ventures, then I guess we are not unlike them. We have a story to tell, and I am a book at 15 measly dollars and hour I am 200k in the hole, where is the big commercial venture, there are no o zip investors, we are not counting my time, 100k ( not counting work time lost) in the hole. If we never recoup a dime beyond that from the book that is ok. If our site looks commercial in some ways I guess that is a compliment. We have learned a lot along the way about how to do this stuff. Hell, we turned down an offer from a producer because they wanted us to do things we would not be comfortable doing. (they contacted us not us them FROM THE SITE). So we do not want or do not need investors and in the end, will use all our own funds. Commercial endeavor is for-profit- Allan we are totally self-funding and will remain that way. Our editor of the book suggested a site to help promote the book but mkae sure to keep the best stuff for the book. At $15 measly dollars per hour I 'am about 185k in the hole. If this was a business, we would be bankrupt. But somethings have to be followed to get everybody safe and secure. I am a 72-year-old fart writing about a journey with my best friends who for me have sacrificed their own money, time away from families to do this for me, late in my life how lucky I am to have such great friends. The comradery and the journey are what this old fart is writing about, more than half the book ii about our personal journies. I idea is to tell this so the guy in Detroit seating at his desk looking out at a foot of snow can dream he is with us or someone older who always wanted to have a great venture, but because of obligation or health could never do it; can vicariously travel along with us. I want to let folks who know nothing about the LDM or the fantastic Superstition Mountains travel with us and discover and share in this fantastic place. I want my great children someday to take their grandfather's book to show and tell so I can be with them in spirit. If the book is a success and makes some money that is not a crime. So we no investors, e-mail us we will turn you down. WE have taken nothing 0 zip from the site. We are just five guys blowing our own money on a Qwest. WE do have an agreement between us all to dot hold one and other liable in case someone gets injured or worse. Our agreement does have a personal mission statement that states we on a historical fact-finding mission, and every member will abide by the agreement which states all will we follow all legal protocol, and will not deface, take, or mine illegally for anything. And that our first and primary objective is to photo document anything we find that may be important and that of course, we be in our book but only after we make sure, it is protected. Allan have a great weekend. Gold Canyon is a nice area. Thanks, Jeff.

 

[azdave35]

Actually, I am glad you brought that up, that was suggested to why not take some donation to offset our personal costs, we were never really comfortable, with that and the donation thing is coming down after we meet with our site guy next week. Also, I got a G-mail response from a Dr in Germany who wanted to go up with the team and said he would pay half the expenses or more, I ran it buy the guys, and because of our team is very close, and compatible( a must for safety concerns) they said he would have to be an expert mountain climber, plus compatible with the guys. He had no climbing experience. He sought us out, offered us a good bit of money and we turned him down. We have pretty much done this on our own dime, 5 guys from Ohio 4 time figure it out. We had pretty much got to our agreed, personal limits, of what we would spend, so it was tuff to turn down the German Dr's offer. What you have to realize is that everything including personal and group challenges is going to be in the book. It is funny how things are just meant to happen, and sometimes lady fate steps. About three weeks after we turned down the Dr's offer, Capt Dave one of our team members called me and ask how things were going for our trip, I said the guys are training doing repelling, and we two professional climbers, that are great guys and Rodger and Davey like them, and they are going with us. But we all agreed no one is taping retirement funds or savings, so we kind of is on hold for now. Dave says I will unwrite the trip, but the first money, from the book, pays me back, (we have been best friends since 1983) I said absolutely. I said you cannot take it out of savings. He says, well this morning I was getting coffee at the UDF and the guy in front of me bought 7, 30 dollar Ohio lottery scratch-offs, I knew him from softball so we talked while he scratched his tickets off, $210.00 dollars all losers. Dave says I seldom buy those things but I was sure the next ticket likely was $50 or $100 so I bought one ticket and went to the car, fastened my seat belt started the car and pulled the ticket out of my shirt pocket, scratched it off it was a Million dollar instant winner. So I will loan the money to fund the trip. I have a picture of him and his wife with the ticket, I took for the book, it is part of our unbelievable, I will post it tomorrow so you can see it. Fate is a funny thing, maybe we are the ones to find things of significance. As to your comments about raising money for fraudulent purposes, we have not used one penny from an outside source ( not even the site, we closed that access down, I did not like it, we just need to get the tag removed). So we have spent our own money, and we will finish using our own funds out of are pockets only. So to insinuate that this is a Ponzi skim to raise money is laughable, we would be the dumbest crooks in the world. We are not bottom feeders and have our own means, and have spent all our own monies because we believe we have something and want to finish our quest. My guys are all straight shooters, and to infer is just flat wrong. If we make money from telling our story in the book we can recoupe some of what we ourselves have spent. We are not looking for partners, the money we are just fine and in the end, we will and are totally self-funded. And actually speaking we all have spent about what we would for a high- end vacation every year. If what we find on our next trip is not what we think, it is not the end of the world for us, we all have other interests, and can have all these great memories and the comradery shared in the Superstition Mountains. Thanks, Jeff.

sorry jeff..but as i said..you are not the first to show up around here with a bunch of crazy claims about finding the ldm....there have been hundreds before you and most ended up being con men that bilked us out of millions of dollars so pardon us if we don't believe anything you say...its like mark twain once said "A gold mine is a hole in the ground with a liar standing on top of it."...

 

[Hal Croves]

sorry jeff..but as i said..you are not the first to show up around here with a bunch of crazy claims about finding the ldm....there have been hundreds before you and most ended up being con men that bilked us out of millions of dollars so pardon us if we don't believe anything you say...its like mark twain once said "A gold mine is a hole in the ground with a liar standing on top of it."...

And no hole in the ground can adumbrate the value of true friendship.
But they often do.

 

[Al D]

Hey Allan, We started the site on the suggestion of our editor, and book agent, saying it would help with the book, just be careful not to keep the best stuff for the book. Look at all the people who have wrote books, and looked for the LDM, if a book only telling our story and what we have discovered, but not mining and taking nothing historical, if that is a commercial venture being like Helen Corbin Tom K Wayne Tuttle are commercial also commercial ventures, then I guess we are not unlike them. We have a story to tell, and I am a book at 15 measly dollars and hour I am 200k in the hole, where is the big commercial venture, there are no o zip investors, we are not counting my time, 100k ( not counting work time lost) in the hole. If we never recoup a dime beyond that from the book that is ok. If our site looks commercial in some ways I guess that is a compliment. We have learned a lot along the way about how to do this stuff. Hell, we turned down an offer from a producer because they wanted us to do things we would not be comfortable doing. (they contacted us not us them FROM THE SITE). So we do not want or do not need investors and in the end, will use all our own funds. Commercial endeavor is for-profit- Allan we are totally self-funding and will remain that way. Our editor of the book suggested a site to help promote the book but mkae sure to keep the best stuff for the book. At $15 measly dollars per hour I 'am about 185k in the hole. If this was a business, we would be bankrupt. But somethings have to be followed to get everybody safe and secure. I am a 72-year-old fart writing about a journey with my best friends who for me have sacrificed their own money, time away from families to do this for me, late in my life how lucky I am to have such great friends. The comradery and the journey are what this old fart is writing about, more than half the book ii about our personal journies. I idea is to tell this so the guy in Detroit seating at his desk looking out at a foot of snow can dream he is with us or someone older who always wanted to have a great venture, but because of obligation or health could never do it; can vicariously travel along with us. I want to let folks who know nothing about the LDM or the fantastic Superstition Mountains travel with us and discover and share in this fantastic place. I want my great children someday to take their grandfather's book to show and tell so I can be with them in spirit. If the book is a success and makes some money that is not a crime. So we no investors, e-mail us we will turn you down. WE have taken nothing 0 zip from the site. We are just five guys blowing our own money on a Qwest. WE do have an agreement between us all to dot hold one and other liable in case someone gets injured or worse. Our agreement does have a personal mission statement that states we on a historical fact-finding mission, and every member will abide by the agreement which states all will we follow all legal protocol, and will not deface, take, or mine illegally for anything. And that our first and primary objective is to photo document anything we find that may be important and that of course, we be in our book but only after we make sure, it is protected. Allan have a great weekend. Gold Canyon is a nice area. Thanks, Jeff.

I suggest you find a new editor

 

[Al D]

I would love to see a real serious effort to find the LDM, with all of the legal required involvement, archeologist, historians etc. because this thing has gone way beyond anyone getting rich, it is history, and I believe, an aspect of history which is unknown, I would contribute every bit of information I have acquired, over thirty years worth, just to solve this and have the results made publicly available.
I am also convinced that such an alliance would require ZERO dollars of investment, from anyone, the only expense would be each members own supplies and cost.
there is a wealth of information here, and if all of it could be analyzed, this would quickly become solved.
but alas......way too many greedy people looking for their 15 minutes of fame.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I suggest you find a new editor

Why so?