Confederate Wreath Buckle! What a day!

[mangum]

Hello all. Hit my great grandmas house again today and out pops wreath buckle! My hands were shaking! UPDATE TO THIS - ALMOST POSITIVE THIS IS THE OTHER HALF OF A NC STATE SEAL BUCKLE!!! I found a 1855 Springfield musket band at the same site a few weeks earlier. I looked for the other piece but did not find(hoping it will turn up on a future hunt). I also found 2 Indians, 4 wheats and some other cool relics. Also found a couple what's its so any help appreciated as usual! Man what a great day! HH!!!

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[mangum]

Magnum first great find!!!I am hoping that you are not making a common mistake and IDing your wreath simply from the fact it features the same leaves around the perimeter?We collectors refer to this pattern as Laurel Leaf or Olive Leaves,and there are countless cast brass buckles wth this pattern.One must pay attention to every detail and personally I can not find a Laurel Leaf Wreath in all of my Research material with a bridge(the piece between the belt loop and wreath( quite like yours....including any CS or NC buckles?Could you show an image of the buckle you have Ided your piece from? Thanks!!!

The only one I found with the exact wreath with the flower at the bottom was an NC state seal buckle, it was in a buckle book our club owns. I could not find any that had the curved bridge though. I figured it was a different maybe rare variation. There are some repros online but very few originals. Any further insight would be great but me and a buddy went through the whole book on Civil War buckles, North, south and militia and the NC was the only match (other than the curved bridge)(this one is from the web, not very clear... wish I had scanned the page from the book)

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[mangum]

Great find. Looks like a beautiful spot.

Just an aside, if you can't find the other half, maybe Grandma will let you dig a bit deeper and do some sifting.

Well, great grandma passed a while back, gotta talk to my great uncle (who owns the house) I'm itching to dig / sift out a trash pit in the back. Already made a few eye spies on top of the ground.

 

[kuger]

The only one I found with the exact wreath with the flower at the bottom was an NC state seal buckle, it was in a buckle book our club owns. I could not find any that had the curved bridge though. I figured it was a different maybe rare variation. There are some repros online but very few originals. Any further insight would be great but me and a buddy went through the whole book on Civil War buckles, North, south and militia and the NC was the only match (other than the curved bridge)(this one is from the web, not very clear... wish I had scanned the page from the book)View attachment 697316

Thanks!I have just about every book made on Tongue and wreaths(they are my passion)LOL!!I looked till my eyes crossed,so I will look again tonight.The variant of your bridge is key and unique,as are the subtle things like the leaves/flower you noted.The wreaths I have found with the sloped bridge have a smooth pattern and for the most part Pre C.W..I will continue to look,and you find that tongue!!

 

[mangum]

Thanks!I have just about every book made on Tongue and wreaths(they are my passion)LOL!!I looked till my eyes crossed,so I will look again tonight.The variant of your bridge is key and unique,as are the subtle things like the leaves/flower you noted.The wreaths I have found with the sloped bridge have a smooth pattern and for the most part Pre C.W..I will continue to look,and you find that tongue!!

Thanks kuger. Let me know if you find anything.

 

[mangum]

Magnum first great find!!!I am hoping that you are not making a common mistake and IDing your wreath simply from the fact it features the same leaves around the perimeter?We collectors refer to this pattern as Laurel Leaf or Olive Leaves,and there are countless cast brass buckles wth this pattern.One must pay attention to every detail and personally I can not find a Laurel Leaf Wreath in all of my Research material with a bridge(the piece between the belt loop and wreath( quite like yours....including any CS or NC buckles?Could you show an image of the buckle you have Ided your piece from? Thanks!!!

Here is another repro I found that is based on one in the Maryland-Steuart Collection, Virginia Historical Society, It's pretty darn close...

 

[kuger]

still not the same...close,but different enough to demand further investigation.I am looking too

 

[civil_war22]

My buddy found the circular portion to a buckle identical to that. It was considered pre civil war officers buckle. The circular piece had the eagle and says something an San Francisco California.

 

[kuger]

My buddy found the circular portion to a buckle identical to that. It was considered pre civil war officers buckle. The circular piece had the eagle and says something an San Francisco California.

Dude,if it said San Francisco it was not cast brass(this one is)#2 it would be pre civil war,but has absolutely nothing to do with any officer!!There are approx three stamped brass tongue buckles from San Francisco(I have dug all of them if you would like to see them)and were made for the civilian trade....had nothing to do with the military or the Militia,furthermore we have no PROOF where they were made.Also they do not have Laurel leaves on the wreaths.................totally different than this one in all capacity
here is one of the three
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DUG-18...=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[civil_war22]

Kuger I swear you would argue with a dead horse. So what your saying is that the three teardrop bullets he found in the same hole aren't related to the civil war either or the fact that the area we were hunting housed over 12,000 confederate troops and when the union ran the confederates out they also camped there. Also the same camp that Ben mccolluch was at also earl van dorn and then bloody bill Anderson. So this 37 acre lot that I have owned for 20 years and has been in my family since 1868 undoubtedly has a lot of civil war artifacts. Lets just say in the first five years I lived there my brother and I found over 1200 union and confederate bullets, several script I confederate buttons union artillery, dragoon, and infantry buttons. Not to mention the bone saws and medical tools we found from the old 2 story house on our property that was taken over by the union and used for a civil war field hospital. The buckle is a civil war era officers buckle. My buddy already sold it to a guy that buys a ton of civil war artifacts and does a lot of hunting. He's been researching and buying and selling for over 38 years so I'm sure he knows his stuff

 

[Muddyhandz]

Here we go again!

.....and once again, I've found several wreath buckles here in Canada just like this one.

Kuger knows what he's talking about.

Nice finds!

Cheers,
Dave.

 

[civil_war22]

Omg. This is stupid. It is basically pointless to post anything on here because regardless if you know what your talking about and have solid proof your still gonna hear it from people who just feel like arguing and raising their post count. I'll put it this way. If I was to find a excelsior plate in arkansas I wouldn't say oh geez that's not civil war period because that's not from arkansas. Get over it. Y'all don't know everything. Your area is much different than anyone else's. you don't know the history of somewhere until you have sat down and done countless hours of research and id'd exactly where troop movement was. And once you find it there is no telling what you will find. Just because you say oh that's not civil war doesn't mean it isn't. How many times has relics been found in camps that were shrugged off as nothing and later identified as something amazing.

 

[kuger]

Yea I would argue when I am %1000 right and I will bet you any amount of money....what do ya want to wagerI promise you what I have stated is fact!!!

As you stated your friends buckle is indeed Pre C.W.,and it was made for the Gold Rush in Calif.It is either a Taussig & Pollack,M,Cohen & Bros(both out of business by 1855)or Nuestadter Bros which is a bit later...around 1858.(I can show you pictures of them,along with documentation as to there provenance.They had nothing to do with any officer....as you claim with the Heart covers,some military guy could buy them....well thats true with these...likely some guy that had been out West to the Gold Feilds wore his buckle home to fight for the cause....likely the Confederacy......

I have spent hours and hours...years,along with the hours and years that my partners have on this subject....I guarantee you that.

 

[kuger]

Omg. This is stupid. It is basically pointless to post anything on here because regardless if you know what your talking about and have solid proof your still gonna hear it from people who just feel like arguing and raising their post count. I'll put it this way. If I was to find a excelsior plate in arkansas I wouldn't say oh geez that's not civil war period because that's not from arkansas. Get over it. Y'all don't know everything. Your area is much different than anyone else's. you don't know the history of somewhere until you have sat down and done countless hours of research and id'd exactly where troop movement was. And once you find it there is no telling what you will find. Just because you say oh that's not civil war doesn't mean it isn't. How many times has relics been found in camps that were shrugged off as nothing and later identified as something amazing.

No its not stupid,if you are gong to post BS you will get called on it....back up your facts.....I can,mine....bud these T&W buckles are my fortay....I promise you what I have told you abou your friends buckle is fact....a book will be out in about a month all about the buckle you speak of.Would you like a copy?

 

[Muddyhandz]

Hey, I'm not not here just for the sake of arguing and couldn't care less about my post count.
I do have a lot of relic hunting experience and appreciate the facts.
My standards would not allow say a fur trade post with one silver brooch and nothing else indicating a fur trade site.
I respect when one says a civil war camp and has many artifacts showing that life and period in time.
Not to take away from this post but I'm sorry, most of the finds here are 20th century and do not paint the picture of a civil war site.
Maybe that will change as more finds come to light but so far, it looks like a typical homestead site.
I have found over 30 civil war period two-piece eagle buttons, 2 large eagle belt plates, and other American military items from that period in my career out here.
Was there any battles here in Canada? No. American immigrants and some of our own people volunteered for that war is the verdict.
Did your grandmother throw out her grandparents old stuff in her 1920's dump site?
Just because I found a musket ball at a certain place, does that mean anything? Everyone and their dog shot those guns out here, even well into the 1900's.
I have found over 500 "civil war" three-ringers here in Manitoba. I hate to break the news but those guns that fired those bullets were not just used by civil war soldiers.
I hope Mangum finds the other piece to that buckle and it does turn out to be Confederate. Unless there are other finds indicating civil war, please keep an analytical view.
That's my only motive for posting here.
H.H.

 

[kuger]

Hey, I'm not not here just for the sake of arguing and couldn't care less about my post count.
I do have a lot of relic hunting experience and appreciate the facts.
My standards would not allow say a fur trade post with one silver brooch and nothing else indicating a fur trade site.
I respect when one says a civil war camp and has many artifacts showing that life and period in time.
Not to take away from this post but I'm sorry, most of the finds here are 20th century and do not paint the picture of a civil war site.
Maybe that will change as more finds come to light but so far, it looks like a typical homestead site.
I have found over 30 civil war period two-piece eagle buttons, 2 large eagle belt plates, and other American military items from that period in my career out here.
Was there any battles here in Canada? No. American immigrants and some of our own people volunteered for that war is the verdict.
Did your grandmother throw out her grandparents old stuff in her 1920's dump site?
Just because I found a musket ball at a certain place, does that mean anything? Everyone and their dog shot those guns out here, even well into the 1900's.
I have found over 500 "civil war" three-ringers here in Manitoba. I hate to break the news but those guns that fired those bullets were not just used by civil war soldiers.
I hope Mangum finds the other piece to that buckle and it does turn out to be Confederate. Unless there are other finds indicating civil war, please keep an analytical view.
That's my only motive for posting here.
H.H.

Muddy,you are exactly right,and I was going to say pretty much the exact thing,but was going to let it go.......I know of well over 500 GS buttons,several South Carolina,five or six Mass.Volunteer Buttons,at least 4 US box plates and hundreds of Mini balls of calibers used in the CW dug here....in Cali...no CW battles here!I also know of HUNDREDS of tongue and wreath buckles dug here that are unique to here......they are found in very small numbers else where ,but no where near the numbers found here....like Civil War 22's "Officer",buckle...thats a great story he has there...first I ever heard that one....at any rate I am not going to say Magnums wreath is not CW,I do not know....I have no facts on it,aside from its an awesome piece!!

 

[mangum]

Hey, I'm not not here just for the sake of arguing and couldn't care less about my post count.
I do have a lot of relic hunting experience and appreciate the facts.
My standards would not allow say a fur trade post with one silver brooch and nothing else indicating a fur trade site.
I respect when one says a civil war camp and has many artifacts showing that life and period in time.
Not to take away from this post but I'm sorry, most of the finds here are 20th century and do not paint the picture of a civil war site.
Maybe that will change as more finds come to light but so far, it looks like a typical homestead site.
I have found over 30 civil war period two-piece eagle buttons, 2 large eagle belt plates, and other American military items from that period in my career out here.
Was there any battles here in Canada? No. American immigrants and some of our own people volunteered for that war is the verdict.
Did your grandmother throw out her grandparents old stuff in her 1920's dump site?
Just because I found a musket ball at a certain place, does that mean anything? Everyone and their dog shot those guns out here, even well into the 1900's.
I have found over 500 "civil war" three-ringers here in Manitoba. I hate to break the news but those guns that fired those bullets were not just used by civil war soldiers.
I hope Mangum finds the other piece to that buckle and it does turn out to be Confederate. Unless there are other finds indicating civil war, please keep an analytical view.
That's my only motive for posting here.
H.H.

I never said anything about a civil war camp (although it is a strong possibility, I know the facts, area, history etc. but not sharing that info on here for obvious reasons) Plus, it is right in the heart of the South, not Canada. If you've found a few just like this, can we see them? All I said was Confederate Wreath buckle found!... BTW- I stated in my post that I found an 1855 Springfield musket band on my first hunt here as well so it's not the only CW era / military related relic I've found here. The house was inhabited from the mid 1800s to near present day, of course there are going to be finds from all periods including the 20th century! It seems like you are saying that I'm misleading people and I don't have any standards? Sorry, I was excited about a good find and wanted to share... Although now this post (which I was really happy about) is now making me sick to my stomach with all the arguing etc., thanks guys, I appreciate it. If anyone can prove me wrong that it is Confederate / NC I'll gladly edit my post or take it down. I posted based on the research I've done and the NC seal buckle is a match besides the curved bridge. Nothing else I've found is close. I would say HH but these posts aren't making me very happy.

 

[kuger]

I never said anything about a civil war camp (although it is a strong possibility, I know the facts, area, history etc. but not sharing that info on here for obvious reasons) Plus, it is right in the heart of the South, not Canada. If you've found a few just like this, can we see them? All I said was Confederate Wreath buckle found!... BTW- I stated in my post that I found an 1855 Springfield musket band on my first hunt here as well so it's not the only CW era / military related relic I've found here. The house was inhabited from the mid 1800s to near present day, of course there are going to be finds from all periods including the 20th century! It seems like you are saying that I'm misleading people and I don't have any standards? Sorry, I was excited about a good find and wanted to share... Although now this post (which I was really happy about) is now making me sick to my stomach with all the arguing etc., thanks guys, I appreciate it. If anyone can prove me wrong that it is Confederate / NC I'll gladly edit my post or take it down. I posted based on the research I've done and the NC seal buckle is a match besides the curved bridge. Nothing else I've found is close. I would say HH but these posts aren't making me very happy.

Well,I apologize that my effort in finding the truth for you has upset you.I will not have a post that was on track be ran off by a totally false attempted ID,I have stated that I cant find one either,so it very well may be what you are saying it is.Civil War 22 however happened to have picked of all things a group of buckles I know VERY well(as said a book is soon out all about them)I guess in the future I will ask folks if they can handle the truth before saying anything.........Your wreath very well may be a NC State Seal wreath good job

 

[mangum]

Well,I apologize that my effort in finding the truth for you has upset you.I will not have a post that was on track be ran off by a totally false attempted ID,I have stated that I cant find one either,so it very well may be what you are saying it is.Civil War 22 however happened to have picked of all things a group of buckles I know VERY well(as said a book is soon out all about them)I guess in the future I will ask folks if they can handle the truth before saying anything.........Your wreath very well may be a NC State Seal wreath good job

I do appreciate the help kuger I really do. Perhaps I took 22s post the wrong way, just seemed to attack my integrity. I guess y'all were also responding about the SF buckle post as well. I would love to find proof on this one way or the other. I don't want to argue either, this is supposed to be a happy site! Again kuger thanks for the help and any additional info is still much appreciated! GH!

 

[kuger]

Well thank you.....Civil War 22 is totally wrong and if I knew you were I would tell you too.....
I am still looking,this one is quite different but ....http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/relic-hunting/115081-help-wreath-buckle-id.html

Here are two that belong to a good friend...often mis Ided as CW,again found out here and nothing to do with the CW....kind of similar to yours but different

 

[kuger]

...here is one of Civils "Officer",buckles....I know of over 15 of this one dug