CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch, you use the term for the Waltz's mine as " the mine across of the hidden camp ".
Just for your information, both LDM mines are across the gulch from the hidden ( not so hidden ) camp on the same ridgeline, with the LDM inclined shaft to be little higher.
Also, from the Waltz's camp, someone can see both mines spots. Take these clues as new and accurate.

Markmar, more nonsense. Your spot is not from the correct versions of the clues, but your own versions. 😟
You ended up in the spot you’re describing 🤷🏼‍♂️
One day you may finally realize.

But the maybe not 🤪
You look to be getting obsessed again…… 🤷🏼‍♂️ but it is a little creepy markmar 👀

 

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[markmar]

Markmar, more nonsense. Your spot is not from the correct versions of the clues, but your own versions. 😟
You ended up in the spot you’re describing 🤷🏼‍♂️
One day you may finally realize.

But the maybe not 🤪
You look to be getting obsessed again…… 🤷🏼‍♂️ but it is a little creepy markmar 👀

I'm talking about the LDM and not about any pile of rocks in the mountains. Nobody can find the LDM without me, so pay attention on what I'm writing.

 

[releventchair]

INCOMING!!!
l.o.l..
Say what one will about Worst...
I like the last couple paragraphs just fine. Jus fine.

In Search of the Lost Dutchman Mine

Dozens of people have been killed searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine in Arizona’s Superstition Mountains. At 93, Clay Worst is the last living connection to those who claimed to know its location.

www.altaonline.com

 

[Blindbowman]

Hola amigos,
Roadrunner I get the impression that you have not researched this too much, seems that you have only some parts of the story? I think if you did some more research on it, you would not feel quite so negative about the prospects.

First consider this - most of those whom have hunted this lost mine, have zero experience at prospecting and have been counting on the various "clues" or treasure maps to lead them to the mine, which a lot seem to expect to be a big open hole they can not miss. Even today, a lot of fellows can't tell a mine from a cave, and often mistake an empty prospect hole for the lost mine. Remember too that Waltz went to some effort to conceal the entrance to his mine, and covered up the spot where the vein is exposed further down the canyon. The entrance was "no bigger than a barrel" according to one who saw it, so this is not exactly a large thing to look for. Waltz put in desert ironwood logs, six feet in by one source, and then filled in the hole from there with rocks and dirt, so it is quite possible that a 100 year old cactus could be growing right on top of it today for that type of wood is remarkably resistant to rot. Anyway point is that a LOT of people have already walked right past it, almost certainly. It will not be easy to see, barring some earthquake (and Arizona does get a fair number of quakes) or perhaps a heavy rainfall will result in a landslide, uncovering either the mine or the vein below it.

Next - Waltz gave a set of directions to Dick Holmes the very night he was feverish and dying, and this version we see in the Holmes manuscript. To Julia and Reiney however, he gave the instructions over a much longer period of time, weeks or months, and they simply did not pay much attention when he was trying to tell them how to get to the mine. Even Waltz himself told Reinhard once, "Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" This statement indicates to me that the mine is not near any remarkable landmarks and is quite difficult to find, perhaps even so for Waltz himself. Anyway Waltz was certainly in sound mind prior to the last days of his life, and had been trying to tell his friends Julia and Reiney the correct directions, then later (according to Dick Holmes) tried to tell Holmes how to get there but was of course feverish, and dying, so those directions you find in the Holmes manuscript could be confused due to Waltz being feverish.

Julia Thomas was not really the type of person whom could go out in the desert to hunt for a lost mine; her first night spent in the desert, she climbed on top of a big rock and fired her gun at "rattlers" all around it, which was simply the rustling leaves. Reiney was not much better and enlisted the aid of his (real) father and brother, and they made another attempt, but to the disgust of Reiney's relatives, Reiney had a very muddled memory of what the directions were. They broke up but spent years hunting separately. If only Reiney had paid better attention, this lost mine might not even be known today as a lost mine.

Most of the folks whom have hunted for the Lost Dutchman since 1891, were laboring under one or more false ideas, like the funnel shaped pit for example, which was from the Ludy brothers story and not Waltz but got mixed in to the story. So these treasure hunters could have (and probably did) walk right past the actual mine while looking for that funnel shaped pit. I am fairly convinced that one did find it, Walt Gassler, but he died before being able to show anyone else the location. Inside his backpack was an ore sample that matched the Dutchman specimens, of which several still exist and as you surmise, are held by private parties but could possibly arrange a comparison by request. Dick Holmes had an assay done on Waltz's ore, and it came out very high in gold, and rather low in silver by comparison.

It takes a lot of research for any serious and successful treasure hunt, whether it is hunting the sunken ship Atocha like Mel Fisher did, or the Lost Dutchman gold mine. Just because many have failed is no proof that the mine is not still out there, waiting for someone with a bit of luck and hard work to find it. A great deal of 'chaff' has been thrown into this legend too, which makes the job that much harder. I hope that you won't give up on finding the Lost Dutchman without at least giving it a try.

Good luck and good hunting Roadrunner, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

you do know that the account in the August 22 1895 paper is worded different then the January 13th 1895 paper and the January 13th 1895 paper was written by P.C. Bicknell,the sad fact is P.C. Bicknell assumed facts not in evidence of the truth of the accounts , he was selling news papers and believe things he found were facts and they were not facts at all ..it all comes down to source and when,and who ..i have collected 9 news paper accounts some copy other some don't !but one thing stands out to be clear P.C. Bicknell sold news papers ..and changing the wording to what he believed was not selling the truth ...this comes down to a fact of where the newspapers were sold and why the wording is different ...i almost forgot the best fact of the January 13th paper ,is the fact it referred to Waltz having a will !

 

[Idahodutch]

you do know that the account in the August 22 1895 paper is worded different then the January 13th 1895 paper and the January 13th 1895 paper was written by P.C. Bicknell,the sad fact is P.C. Bicknell assumed facts not in evidence of the truth of the accounts , he was selling news papers and believe things he found were facts and they were not facts at all ..it all comes down to source and when,and who ..i have collected 9 news paper accounts some copy other some don't !but one thing stands out to be clear P.C. Bicknell sold news papers ..and changing the wording to what he believed was not selling the truth ...this comes down to a fact of where the newspapers were sold and why the wording is different ...i almost forgot the best fact of the January 13th paper ,is the fact it referred to Waltz having a will !

Good morning BB,
Oral, or written down?

Idahodutch

 

[Blindbowman]

Good morning BB,
Oral, or written down?

Idahodutch

it only says that Julia was left his farm in Waltz's will .! that paper was sold 3 years after his death .i think that's why her papers were burned .. nothing Julia could have told anyone was worth anything next to the will ..there was also some confusion about people digging at his farm ..note the news paper wording .

 

[markmar]

INCOMING!!!
l.o.l..
Say what one will about Worst...
I like the last couple paragraphs just fine. Jus fine.

In Search of the Lost Dutchman Mine

Dozens of people have been killed searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine in Arizona’s Superstition Mountains. At 93, Clay Worst is the last living connection to those who claimed to know its location.

www.altaonline.com

In this article, Clay Worst reveals a very important clue about both LDMs. Let's do an analysis of the clue. The text says:

“No, it’s a vein about that wide,” Waltz said, holding his hands about a foot and a half in front of his chest. “I’m sure it runs through the whole hill, because it just cropped in the bottom of the wash on the other side of the ridge.”

The clue says how between the two mines there is a ridge (hill) and how the outcrop was in the bottom of a wash. Now, we know from John Reed description how from the inclined shaft someone couldn't see the bottom of the main canyon directly below, but could see it on the sides. This means the mine is on an oblong land outcrop which is perpendicular to the main canyon. The "hill" or the "ridge" described by Waltz, is what was causing John Reed to had not eye contact with the main canyon directly below
The "wash" described by Waltz ( IMO ) is a small draw cut in the side of the oblong landmark and runs perpendicular to the arroyo (gulch) which separate the Waltz camp with the LDM's.

Seems the LDM clues come into an order.

 

[releventchair]

In this article, Clay Worst reveals a very important clue about both LDMs. Let's do an analysis of the clue. The text says:

“No, it’s a vein about that wide,” Waltz said, holding his hands about a foot and a half in front of his chest. “I’m sure it runs through the whole hill, because it just cropped in the bottom of the wash on the other side of the ridge.”

The clue says how between the two mines there is a ridge (hill) and how the outcrop was in the bottom of a wash. Now, we know from John Reed description how from the inclined shaft someone couldn't see the bottom of the main canyon directly below, but could see it on the sides. This means the mine is on an oblong land outcrop which is perpendicular to the main canyon. The "hill" or the "ridge" described by Waltz, is what was causing John Reed to had not eye contact with the main canyon directly below
The "wash" described by Waltz ( IMO ) is a small draw cut in the side of the oblong landmark and runs perpendicular to the arroyo (gulch) which separate the Waltz camp with the LDM's.

Seems the LDM clues come into an order.

Accounts keep the terrain erratic .

A Spanish prospector following the terrain by eye back when... Noting the geology and convolution(s) and having to test hole? Something made someone first to break rock.
That is #1.

2 is the site hints a fire would not be seen from main traffic areas.
No a stream of traffic , and trying to hide from it wasn't mentioned as being why the site appealed.
Privacy in mining not such a bad thing though. And it just so happens the site is hidden so well it is noteworthy of being well hidden?

On a cold night a fire isn't bad. On a real cold night , I'd be voting for a fire.
The being in terrain it can't be seen for miles is almost too good for a mine story.
At least it might be smelled a distance is my only consolation of a secure site. But wait , no one is on guard duty?
Traffic wasn't being watched for if miners were getting shot while mining.
Another thing the terrain hints as a vantage for if applied effectively.
A double edged contrast that kind of bugs me about how I imagine the site from it's description.
Is it too good? Too bad? Or just what it is?
Even if traffic was rare , it only takes one gun to ruin a partys day.


A good windbreak to be on the lee side of in a dust or any storm isn't bad. Multiple for multiple folk good too.
Wasn't always tunnels , if tunnels are trusted to sleep in.
If only someone could keep watch.
Maybe dogs were to much on the feed stake to have one along.
But here's a site with a mine hidden from....Sight?

A rock here shows it has been touched. Oil from skin over time I guess.
Piles around show some that obviously have not moved since I placed them. Others obviously have been moved.
Here's a fresh pile. How can we tell? Contrast.
And if we walked on them or ran pack animals on them , you could follow. Or at least note sign intermittently.

We have the storied account of noise being the sign/clue to the mining activity.
Not greased looking stone . Not scarred rock. Not undusted rock. Not a spent shoe or cut brush or similar.
Just noise.
By someone accustomed to desert travel and life.
Then a vantage was found/arrived at from which to shoot miners.
Again , no alarm , no guard , no dog...

Sometimes an account seems more an account that fits more than the same site and subject.
At least the site seems consistently interesting in having vantages. IF used correctly enough.

Step out of the tunnel into what?
I wouldn't get five feet into a hidden tunnel without wanting to check my backtrail already. And that is with a lookout on watch for me!

 

[Blindbowman]

the best clue is he was a real man that lived outside of Phoenix and he had real gold ..!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I like the clue Waltz gave, about how the gold ore from the mine directly across of the hidden camp, is different from the gold ore from the inclined shaft mine high up in the arroyo…… unlike the ore from inclined shaft, the ore from mine across of the hidden camp, is more gold than quartz.
Waltz also continued on about the gold ore in that mine across of the hidden camp; he said there is enough gold showing, to make millionaires of 20 men.

So $20,000,000 in gold, and that’s just what is showing.
That was back in the later 1800’s when gold was about $20 per ounce. Today gold is over $2,000 per ounce ….. 100 times more.

In today’s dollar terms, to figure how much gold is showing, we just need to multiply $20 million by 100. (Assuming Waltz’s guess was in the ballpark.)
$20 million x 100 = $2,000,000,000 or $2 BILLION …. And that’s just what is showing. There would most likely be much more behind that.

2 Billion is a lot, and if we bust it up into sample size portions …. It starts to get interesting.

Have any of you held a 100 ounce bar of silver? It weighs approximately 7 pounds. 100 Troy ounces of anything is the same …. Approximately 7 pounds.

Gold samples, per person would most likely be 2 or 3 times that amount, but for now let’s just say about 125 ounces or almost 10 pounds.

125 ounces of gold at a price of $2,000 per ounce = $250,000 or 1/4 million per sample that would probably fit quite easily in the palms of our hands.

If the LDM is in the wilderness area, nobody can claim the mine, only get samples.
How many Dutch Hunters could get a sample of that size?
The math says enough gold showing, to provide samples to 4,000 Dutch Hunters.

If I found the LDM in the wilderness area, I’d get samples, and I hope that any Dutch hunter that could get there, would also get samples. 🥳

Yep, what to do with the LDM if you found it in the wilderness area. It is a hard question.

IIRC that supposed 10^6 oz. quote of the ole buzzard has no proper provenience. It is a concoction. Long since debunked. Or perhaps you can refresh us all as to where you claim you got it and what makes it all good? Besides. How can he simply look a working face of a vein and make that claim. Today we need to core drill and all that to define the 3 dimensional extent. No one would be doing exploratory excavation ( all that work) when they were already faced with more gold ore than they could remove. The only reason to remove anything other than the productive vein would be if it were necessary because the vein itself was too narrow, and even then only enough would be removed to provide access to the working face.


And the post opened with 'I like the clue Waltz gave, about how the gold ore from the mine directly across of the hidden camp, is different from the gold ore from the inclined shaft mine high up in the arroyo' IIRC that one is also without proper provenience. Can you shed light on that?


thanks bud!

 

[Idahodutch]

IIRC that supposed 10^6 oz. quote of the ole buzzard has no proper provenience. It is a concoction. Long since debunked. Or perhaps you can refresh us all as to where you claim you got it and what makes it all good? Besides. How can he simply look a working face of a vein and make that claim. Today we need to core drill and all that to define the 3 dimensional extent. No one would be doing exploratory excavation ( all that work) when they were already faced with more gold ore than they could remove. The only reason to remove anything other than the productive vein would be if it were necessary because the vein itself was too narrow, and even then only enough would be removed to provide access to the working face.


And the post opened with 'I like the clue Waltz gave, about how the gold ore from the mine directly across of the hidden camp, is different from the gold ore from the inclined shaft mine high up in the arroyo' IIRC that one is also without proper provenience. Can you shed light on that?


thanks bud!

CN,
you are entitled to believe whatever you want.
The information you seek only requires you to search and read. 👍

Take care,
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Accounts keep the terrain erratic .

A Spanish prospector following the terrain by eye back when... Noting the geology and convolution(s) and having to test hole? Something made someone first to break rock.
That is #1.

2 is the site hints a fire would not be seen from main traffic areas.
No a stream of traffic , and trying to hide from it wasn't mentioned as being why the site appealed.
Privacy in mining not such a bad thing though. And it just so happens the site is hidden so well it is noteworthy of being well hidden?

On a cold night a fire isn't bad. On a real cold night , I'd be voting for a fire.
The being in terrain it can't be seen for miles is almost too good for a mine story.
At least it might be smelled a distance is my only consolation of a secure site. But wait , no one is on guard duty?
Traffic wasn't being watched for if miners were getting shot while mining.
Another thing the terrain hints as a vantage for if applied effectively.
A double edged contrast that kind of bugs me about how I imagine the site from it's description.
Is it too good? Too bad? Or just what it is?
Even if traffic was rare , it only takes one gun to ruin a partys day.


A good windbreak to be on the lee side of in a dust or any storm isn't bad. Multiple for multiple folk good too.
Wasn't always tunnels , if tunnels are trusted to sleep in.
If only someone could keep watch.
Maybe dogs were to much on the feed stake to have one along.
But here's a site with a mine hidden from....Sight?

A rock here shows it has been touched. Oil from skin over time I guess.
Piles around show some that obviously have not moved since I placed them. Others obviously have been moved.
Here's a fresh pile. How can we tell? Contrast.
And if we walked on them or ran pack animals on them , you could follow. Or at least note sign intermittently.

We have the storied account of noise being the sign/clue to the mining activity.
Not greased looking stone . Not scarred rock. Not undusted rock. Not a spent shoe or cut brush or similar.
Just noise.
By someone accustomed to desert travel and life.
Then a vantage was found/arrived at from which to shoot miners.
Again , no alarm , no guard , no dog...

Sometimes an account seems more an account that fits more than the same site and subject.
At least the site seems consistently interesting in having vantages. IF used correctly enough.

Step out of the tunnel into what?
I wouldn't get five feet into a hidden tunnel without wanting to check my backtrail already. And that is with a lookout on watch for me!

Interesting post, but follows clues from PC Bicknell account (similar to Herman and Storm accounts) and not from the Waltz deathbed confession described in Clay Worst account.
Not necessary to camp and light a fire in the vicinity of the mine. A place with some water in a flat ground and a little distance from the mine would be the proper place for camping and to keep the mine "hidden".
Of course while mining there would be an armed guard at high ground nearby to notify for anything could be a treat to their mine and life.
Me personally, I don't' believe in PC Bicknell version in how Waltz took possession of the mine. There are few details which are "yelling" BS!.
First detail says was evening and Waltz was in his camp making supper, when he heard noise of mining tools. How is possible to be in a camp and to didn't notice signs of another camp ( smoke, noise of animals, human voices) close by. Noise travel quickly in silent evenings.
Second detail is he followed upward canyon the noise of the mining tools and found himself above the mine, when the mine is located above the canyon and someone have to pass near the mine in regards to be above from it.
Third detail is there was no guard but all were mining, thing which was not proper for Mexican miners habit in a hostile Apache country.
And fourth and last detail is while Waltz was shooting the miners, they were running outside the mine instead to remain inside until the nightfall which supposedly was very close. Seems Waltz had a very good sight to shot precisely at dusk. Many accounts say Waltz had a shotgun, but in Bicknell account had a rifle. What happened, sold the rifle for a shotgun because had no money?

To me, the true story on how Waltz took possession of the LDM inclined shaft is described in Waltz's deathbed confession.

 

[Idahodutch]

Interesting post, but follows clues from PC Bicknell account (similar to Herman and Storm accounts) and not from the Waltz deathbed confession described in Clay Worst account.
Not necessary to camp and light a fire in the vicinity of the mine. A place with some water in a flat ground and a little distance from the mine would be the proper place for camping and to keep the mine "hidden".
Of course while mining there would be an armed guard at high ground nearby to notify for anything could be a treat to their mine and life.
Me personally, I don't' believe in PC Bicknell version in how Waltz took possession of the mine. There are few details which are "yelling" BS!.
First detail says was evening and Waltz was in his camp making supper, when he heard noise of mining tools. How is possible to be in a camp and to didn't notice signs of another camp ( smoke, noise of animals, human voices) close bay. Noise travel quickly in silent evenings.
Second detail is he followed upward canyon the noise of the mining tools and found himself above the mine, when the mine is located above the canyon and someone have to pass near the mine in regards to be above from it.
Third detail is there was no guard but all were mining, thing which was not proper for Mexican miners habit in a hostile Apache country.
And fourth and last detail is while Waltz was shooting the miners, they were running outside the mine instead to remain inside until the nightfall which supposedly was very close. Seems Waltz had a very good sight to shot precisely at dusk. Many accounts say Waltz had a shotgun, but in Bicknell account had a rifle. What happened, sold the rifle for a shotgun because had no money?

To me, the true story on how Waltz took possession of the LDM inclined shaft is described in Waltz's deathbed confession.

Markmar, or should I say Kraig,
First off, there is more than one Bicknell account, (but you knew that),
The January 1895 SF Chronicle article by Bicknell has statements by Bicknell, correcting earlier article he did. (But you knew that)

The shotgun was later (but you knew that)
The sarcasm is unnecessary, and your motive for purposely posting incomplete information, appears to be not one of an honerable nature.

Which deathbed confession version are you talking about?
We have at least 2 …. The one where Clay says that Holmes and Julia and Roberts were all 3 there listening and talking.
Then there is a version where Julia is not present l, but out looking for a doctor.

Then to not even mention the months of confessions from Waltz to Julia and Rhiney, while he was sick, and leading up to his death.

Hasn’t there been enough Tom foolery, without adding more?

Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Markmar, or should I say Kraig,
First off, there is more than one Bicknell account, (but you knew that),
The January 1895 SF Chronicle article by Bicknell has statements by Bicknell, correcting earlier article he did. (But you knew that)

The shotgun was later (but you knew that)
The sarcasm is unnecessary, and your motive for purposely posting incomplete information, appears to be not one of an honerable nature.

Which deathbed confession version are you talking about?
We have at least 2 …. The one where Clay says that Holmes and Julia and Roberts were all 3 there listening and talking.
Then there is a version where Julia is not present l, but out looking for a doctor.

Then to not even mention the months of confessions from Waltz to Julia and Rhiney, while he was sick, and leading up to his death.

Hasn’t there been enough Tom foolery, without adding more?

Idahodutch

Just to make something clear for all the idiots out there: I'm not Kraig ( Matthew Roberts). We are different persons.

Now you can take any Bicknell account you like because would lead you to the same spot: nowhere close to the LDM.
I was talking about the Waltz deathbed confession from the Clay Worst account linked above. From that account started my conversation with Releventchair, if you didn't pay attention.
You are not following the course of the thread by reading carefully, but you are only jumping in to insult and harash everyone doesn't post in your interest.

 

[Idahodutch]

Just to make something clear for all the idiots out there: I'm not Kraig ( Matthew Roberts). We are different persons.

Now you can take any Bicknell account you like because would lead you to the same spot: nowhere close to the LDM.
I was talking about the Waltz deathbed confession from the Clay Worst account linked above. From that account started my conversation with Releventchair, if you didn't pay attention.
You are not following the course of the thread by reading carefully, but you are only jumping in to insult and harash everyone doesn't post in your interest.

😂😂😂
You act like a little boy caught in his BS.

 

[markmar]

😂😂😂
You act like a little boy caught in his BS.

I see edited your post, maybe because was little defensive and didn't fit to your character. Seems took few days to make your offensive attack. You can't live without it
There is no bigger pile of BS than the big pile of rocks you believe found the LDM below. There is no difference between you and all the others who claimed have found the LDM. The same brown cream in the same pot.

 

[Blindbowman]

I see edited your post, maybe because was little defensive and didn't fit to your character. Seems took few days to make your offensive attack. You can't live without it
There is no bigger pile of BS than the big pile of rocks you believe found the LDM below. There is no difference between you and all the others who claimed have found the LDM. The same brown cream in the same pot.

think he gave Bicknell to much respect .. news papers sell papers . i don't think i would have used the word correct . Bicknell change the whole meaning of clues to make his work look like the only answer needed to find it .. he was wrong .. selling newspapers had nothing to do with finding the mine .. in fact i told Wayne T the same thing years ago .the only way to know what clues have merit and what ones don't is when the location of the mine has been known to the person that found it .. an IMHO that's not Ida above ...lol but why worry about anyone finding it i stated over 20 years ago i was going to make sure no one ever found it again ...there are thousands of diggings and old mine prospects and old shafts out there i have seen more than 3 dozen unknown mines out there not in any newspaper so don't trust what you read here or there . legends are just legends till proven otherwise . and that has nothing to do with the fact Waltz was a real person or not ..

 

[Idahodutch]

I see edited your post, maybe because was little defensive and didn't fit to your character. Seems took few days to make your offensive attack. You can't live without it
There is no bigger pile of BS than the big pile of rocks you believe found the LDM below. There is no difference between you and all the others who claimed have found the LDM. The same brown cream in the same pot.

😁 believe whatever you want 😂

 

[Idahodutch]

think he gave Bicknell to much respect .. news papers sell papers . i don't think i would have used the word correct . Bicknell change the whole meaning of clues to make his work look like the only answer needed to find it .. he was wrong .. selling newspapers had nothing to do with finding the mine .. in fact i told Wayne T the same thing years ago .the only way to know what clues have merit and what ones don't is when the location of the mine has been known to the person that found it .. an IMHO that's not Ida above ...lol but why worry about anyone finding it i stated over 20 years ago i was going to make sure no one ever found it again ...there are thousands of diggings and old mine prospects and old shafts out there i have seen more than 3 dozen unknown mines out there not in any newspaper so don't trust what you read here or there . legends are just legends till proven otherwise . and that has nothing to do with the fact Waltz was a real person or not ..

You guys are relentless. Believe what you want 😂👍

 

[Blindbowman]

the source of the clue defines the merit of its value,we all see and observe what our own wisdom defines .data is data ,logic is the reality we all face in our path to learn as much as we can .. they are watching the Earth and mankind .. the LDM is just rock ...just some feed their own greed looking for it ... i found them and they are among us ... they speak without words !...no clues, no treasure for the pockets of the greedy .. just answers .. and a insight into all of creation ...humans have a lot to learn and if you seek the LDM . that's up to you ..