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[Matthew Roberts]

Pardon my ignorance, but I've always been under the impression that the "board house" from Waltz's time was located right near the current QCU ranch buildings. I see from the video Wayne posted (Larry Hedrick speaking) as well as his GE image map that the original "board house" was actually located right next to where the old Lost Dutchman store was along the road to the QCU, but 3/4 of a mile from the current QCU.

I don't know how I missed that in all the years of reading forum posts and having discussions.

Is Larry Hedrick mistaken, or is that where you believe the board house stood as well?

Cubfan64,

From the Cavaness family we know that when Matt Cavaness first put cattle out on that ranch he built a stone house which was where the family lived. That stone house still stands today at the QCU as the grainery. When Cavaness brought the load of lumber back with him from Yuma / San Diego he built the board house about where the headquarters of the QCU stands today. About 200 feet from the grainery. The reason Cavaness settled there was because of the spring on the hillside just above the house, a permanent water source still good today. There is no water out at where the Superstition store once stood, no one would have built their family a home where there was no water. That location is in error.

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

The history of the Milk ranch, where it was located and who lived there may explain the 1891 Waltz confusion.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

..... The reason Cavaness settled there was because of the spring on the hillside just above the house, a permanent water source still good today. There is no water out at where the Superstition store once stood, no one would have built their family a home where there was no water. That location is in error.

Exactly right. The first thing people did back then was built a stone structure (even if you built a "board house" later, you still needed the stone structure, very nearby, in case the Indians decided to burn you out or tried to lay siege/kill you). And you want your spring uphill, but still close by. Gravity is a great way to get water to your house/yard where it's convenient and at hand. Trying to go 3/4 of a mile to get water every day not only would've been a PITA, it would've been a great time for Indians to pick you or your kids/wife off. Nobody in their right mind would have done that.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The history of the Milk ranch, where it was located and who lived there may explain the 1891 Waltz confusion.

Matthew, are you referring to Orena Rowe being there with her kids? The reason I ask, is after her husband William was killed in 1877 by Edward Munroe Firman (with a shotgun, and then one of William's daughters was wounded by her father's shotgun when it AD'd as she went to his aid), it makes sense Orena would be down at the Cavaness ranch near her daughter (and also earlier due to Indian raids)..as we know, that daughter divorced Cavaness, remarried, then died a few years later.

Bark wrote that there was a woman and three children living at the board house, which sounds like Mrs. Cavaness before the divorce, or maybe Orena Rowe as she had 3 young children.

It looks to me that Orena moved to CA not long after her husband's estate was settled in Probate Court (1879). So by the early 1880's, she had left Arizona and wouldn't have been down at the Milk Ranch. As far as I've been able to find, she stayed in CA until her death (buried San Diego, 1928).

So is that who you're referring to, or was it another lady?

 

[somehiker]

Saved as a screenshot from Larry's video.....

If Larry is correct, I have been to the top of the rise from which that original photo was taken.
A friend from AJ and I went out for a looksee about 5 or 6 years ago. We followed the wash from near the gate to the south side of the hill, where the slope to the top.....about 80 -100 ft high.....is not very steep. That side is literally covered in pottery shards (brown and buff plain ware). Looking down on the much steeper NE side from the top, we could see a number of sections of old piping part way down from the top, where it also looked like some kind of small stonework existed where the pipes were. I didn't know about the spring, so we didn't climb down to have a closer look, but given the pottery and the piping etc. I believe there was a spring there.

 

[somehiker]

Anyone familiar with this photo ?
Or the other one....from the same location ?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Anyone familiar with this photo ?
Or the other one....from the same location ?

View attachment 1934694

View attachment 1934695

somehiker,

That is not a photo of the board house Cavaness ranch. That photo is one taken at the Roosevelt town site when the Roosevelt dam was being constructed. Dont know how they got those captions.

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,

That is not a photo of the board house Cavaness ranch. That photo is one taken at the Roosevelt town site when the Roosevelt dam was being constructed. Dont know how they got those captions.

Didn't say it was, or that it had anything to do with the south end of the Sups.
Simply asked if anyone had seen it before. Those are my captions....based on the bio info supplied by the site from which I obtained them. That info included the location.....and it wasn't Roosevelt.
Do you have a copy of the originals, or additional shots of the same building ?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew, are you referring to Orena Rowe being there with her kids? The reason I ask, is after her husband William was killed in 1877 by Edward Munroe Firman (with a shotgun, and then one of William's daughters was wounded by her father's shotgun when it AD'd as she went to his aid), it makes sense Orena would be down at the Cavaness ranch near her daughter (and also earlier due to Indian raids)..as we know, that daughter divorced Cavaness, remarried, then died a few years later.

Bark wrote that there was a woman and three children living at the board house, which sounds like Mrs. Cavaness before the divorce, or maybe Orena Rowe as she had 3 young children.

It looks to me that Orena moved to CA not long after her husband's estate was settled in Probate Court (1879). So by the early 1880's, she had left Arizona and wouldn't have been down at the Milk Ranch. As far as I've been able to find, she stayed in CA until her death (buried San Diego, 1928).

So is that who you're referring to, or was it another lady?

Jim,

You have the history spot on. I can only add the Milk ranch came about in 1875 when Wm. Rowe abandoned his home at Marysville (Rowes Station) due to the indians stole all of his cows and horses. He moved his family over with Matt Cavaness and his daughter Alice and with Cavaness built a house barn and corral at the Milk ranch about a mile or so east of Cavaness ranch. Wm. Rowes sole source of income while at Marysville was selling Milk and that is what his family did at the Milk ranch. Rowe persuaded Charles Whitlow to also leave Marysville and build a ranch just south of the Milk ranch. I believe Whitlow married one of Rowes daughters. Rowe had 9 children altogether and when Rowe was murdered and his wife moved away the Milk ranch was operated by some of Rowes children and also possibly Whitlow/Rowe.

You have to understand it was George Marlow who ran the old Cavaness ranch up until Waltz death and he was friends with the Milk ranch during that time. It was after Bark and Crisswell got the Cavaness ranch that they pressured the Milk ranch to get out. Bark and Criswell wanted the Milk ranch for themselves.

Also, in Waltzs day the entrance to the Superstitions from the south was not the Peralta trailhead we know today. It was a place called the middle trail which was east of the Cavaness ranch in between the Cavaness and Milk ranches. Waltz would have been very familiar with both ranches from 1875 on as well as anyyone who lived there.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Didn't say it was, or that it had anything to do with the south end of the Sups.
Simply asked if anyone had seen it before. Those are my captions....based on the bio info supplied by the site from which I obtained them. That info included the location.....and it wasn't Roosevelt.
Do you have a copy of the originals, or additional shots of the same building ?

somehiker,

Tom Kollenborn has that photo in his collection and on his Facebook page in his photo album and identifies it as Roosevelt. Dont know anything about it beyond that.

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,

Tom Kollenborn has that photo in his collection and on his Facebook page in his photo album and identifies it as Roosevelt. Dont know anything about it beyond that.

I'll have a look, but like I said, the collection where I found it identified both photos as having been taken somewhere else in the NW part of the Superstitions.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I'll have a look, but like I said, the collection where I found it identified both photos as having been taken somewhere else in the NW part of the Superstitions.

somehiker,

I think that photo appears in the book Doctor on Horseback by Ralph Fleetwood Palmer. He was doctor at Roosevelt for a time, had the Palmer mine in the Superstitions and was grandfather to Nancy McCullough, Tex Barkleys grand daughter.

 

[Cubfan64]

Saved as a screenshot from Larry's video.....

If Larry is correct, I have been to the top of the rise from which that original photo was taken.
A friend from AJ and I went out for a looksee about 5 or 6 years ago. We followed the wash from near the gate to the south side of the hill, where the slope to the top.....about 80 -100 ft high.....is not very steep. That side is literally covered in pottery shards (brown and buff plain ware). Looking down on the much steeper NE side from the top, we could see a number of sections of old piping part way down from the top, where it also looked like some kind of small stonework existed where the pipes were. I didn't know about the spring, so we didn't climb down to have a closer look, but given the pottery and the piping etc. I believe there was a spring there.

Ok so I'm getting more confused now. According to Matthew as well as everything I've known up until now, the "board house" was basically AT the current QCU. Randy and I few years ago while a group of folks from the Rendezvous were visiting the ranch, climbed up to see if we could get the same view as the B&W screenshot you got from the Hedrick video (and I believe it's also in one of Glover's books). We were satisfied that the view we got from up behind the ranch house was the same view.

That said, it sounds like you are saying you and someone else hiked up ANOTHER rise just to the S or possible SE of the old Lost Dutchman Store location, found pottery sherds and possibly remains of what could have been pipes from a spring and also saw the same view as what's in the B&W image.

Now I don't know what to believe

Here is a photo from when Randy and I climbed up behind the QCU location trying to duplicate the B&W image - the background looks pretty close to me, but now I'm questioning everything!!

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,

I think that photo appears in the book Doctor on Horseback by Ralph Fleetwood Palmer. He was doctor at Roosevelt for a time, had the Palmer mine in the Superstitions and was grandfather to Nancy McCullough, Tex Barkleys grand daughter.

Took a while, but I did find the original non-watermarked version TK had posted.
Actually, he did say the building was somewhere other than Roosevelt, but I also know from firsthand oldtimer's experience......sometimes our memories can get a bit confused.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

....

You have to understand it was George Marlow who ran the old Cavaness ranch up until Waltz death and he was friends with the Milk ranch during that time. It was after Bark and Crisswell got the Cavaness ranch that they pressured the Milk ranch to get out. Bark and Criswell wanted the Milk ranch for themselves.

Matthew,

Thank you, you have correctly identified my disconnect here. I get it now.

Paul,

I'm right there with you, a bit confused and wanting to know why Larry thinks the board house was down by the store...wanting to know what Wayne saw too...was there a spring there also? I know Bark dug some wells and Chuning drifted one under the creek. It's confusing.

 

[somehiker]

Ok so I'm getting more confused now. According to Matthew as well as everything I've known up until now, the "board house" was basically AT the current QCU. Randy and I few years ago while a group of folks from the Rendezvous were visiting the ranch, climbed up to see if we could get the same view as the B&W screenshot you got from the Hedrick video (and I believe it's also in one of Glover's books). We were satisfied that the view we got from up behind the ranch house was the same view.

That said, it sounds like you are saying you and someone else hiked up ANOTHER rise just to the S or possible SE of the old Lost Dutchman Store location, found pottery sherds and possibly remains of what could have been pipes from a spring and also saw the same view as what's in the B&W image.

Now I don't know what to believe

Here is a photo from when Randy and I climbed up behind the QCU location trying to duplicate the B&W image - the background looks pretty close to me, but now I'm questioning everything!!

The approx route we used.....

 

[Cubfan64]

Thanks Wayne - that's about where I thought you were talking about S/SE of where Hedrick says the board house was.

My gut feeling is that he's just not correct though. I would have to get out there and look at the background and compare it with the B&W photo. I thought Larry H's idea of how the location was pinpointed because of the "curve in the road" in the video was a little suspect to be honest. The backdrop of the mountains in the photo should be a much better indication of where the actual photo was taken from - roads can change, mountains and ridges out there don't change that much.

 

[somehiker]

Thanks Wayne - that's about where I thought you were talking about S/SE of where Hedrick says the board house was.

My gut feeling is that he's just not correct though. I would have to get out there and look at the background and compare it with the B&W photo. I thought Larry H's idea of how the location was pinpointed because of the "curve in the road" in the video was a little suspect to be honest. The backdrop of the mountains in the photo should be a much better indication of where the actual photo was taken from - roads can change, mountains and ridges out there don't change that much.

If I were to go out there for another look, I would see if I might be able to find any remnants of the wall and corral seen here in the photo. And the background as well of course.

 

[Cubfan64]

I just popped onto Tom Kollenborn's Facebook page and came across the same photo as above, BUT reversed!!! So which one is actually the correct image if one were to stand right where the photo was taken?? I'm also including Tom's comments...

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Paul, that image is definitely reversed. The cliff background is, well, backwards