Civil War Confederate Flag Pen?

[aurumdigga]

I found two odd items that are in the Atlanta Battlefield area. I also found a three ringer bullet within a few yards of these items.

The Civil War Confederate Flag item may be an after the war pen of some kind. I included the back of it but the back doesn't give me a clue as to what this item was for. I would appreciate anyone's input on this.

The piece of button is a Scottish Coat of Arms from what my research found. I found a 50's era button that was similar but this button seems to be older in my opinion. It is just the front of a button.....maybe a two piece design.

The writing on the button is .....SPECTEMUR AGENDO.

I am really curious about this Flag item. It would be cool if it was a Civil War period piece.

Thanks folks!

 

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[DCMatt]

During the Civil War Confederate battle flags were square, not rectangle. The rectangle flag is a modern apocryphal representation.

DCMatt

 

[aurumdigga]

During the Civil War Confederate battle flags were square, not rectangle. The rectangle flag is a modern apocryphal representation.

DCMatt

I don't know Matt, maybe. When you make jewelry, that license of square not rectangle could be thrown out by the artist that makes it.

Still, this is a unique piece found in a battleground area. The mystery continues.

Even the Scottish button is a mystery. I know that this button is still made today, but when were they first made is the mystery. Others have found this same Scottish button but don't know the exact date of the find they discover. This button has some kind of significance to our Nation's history. Was this a button worn in the 1800's? Sometimes the Confederates wore clothes that were not exactly what every other soldier was wearing. These Scottish soldiers could have worn clothes that were honoring their heritage. Just guessing though.

 

[aurumdigga]

During the Civil War Confederate battle flags were square, not rectangle. The rectangle flag is a modern apocryphal representation.

DCMatt

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...F1CB&first=0&qpvt=civil+war+flags&FORM=IDFRIR

I have to disagree about all Confederate flags being square. The link above is to a captured Confederate Flag. It is rectangle for sure.

Thanks anyway Matt. I didn't know that the Confederate Flag was square too. I will post the picture in the next post.

 

[aurumdigga]

Here is the captured Flag I found that is a rectangle.

 

[aurumdigga]

Thanks bigcypresshunter

I think this button has been around a long time. It is a curious piece.

The enameled button is old considering the back of the piece. I am just wondering how old.

Since no one has come forward about the Flag item, I guess this goes in the books as one of those pieces that can't be identified.

The mystery continues for me.

Thank you everybody for the input.

 

[aurumdigga]

You know, I said it was a pen of some kind.....But..... the size of this rusty part of the back makes me think that it is something that may not have been something that went on clothes.

Of course I could be wrong. I thought that the back would be telling about what it is but no one has said anything about the back.

I do know that enameling was being done in France at the time......and.... some of the supplies that the Confederate army did use came from France. I think some of the Swords were French made. I wonder if this may be an embellishment on some kind of Sword or knife.....or even something else.

In a battle, this type of embellishment could have come off. I really think this is more of an embellishment piece that was not on clothing.

For that reason, I think that this piece may be a period piece if it is not a clothing item......Unless they made more embellished swords, knives, and such after the war and this piece came off of a post war period piece.

 

[aurumdigga]

I will try to clean up the back a bit and do the magnet test.

I live in Ga. I have been to the Capital where many flags are displayed. I have seen Rectangle Confederate Flags, (Plural), there on my visits. These flags are very large at the Capital. I will take some pictures of them the next time I visit.

It is very hard to get into the Capital at times these days. There can only be so many visitors at the Capital building at one time. It used to be open all of the time before 9/11. Dang Muslims! They screw it up for everybody.

OK, there are no magnetic properties to this item. I used an earth magnet for the test.

The item is 6 & 1/2 tenths by 7 1/2 tenths in size.....almost square.

What I thought was rust turns out to be Ga. Clay.

I looks like at some point the center was a circle of metal. I broke off a piece of this metal circle while trying to get the clay off and I quit when I did this.

As you can see, the back of this metal may be chromed or maybe silver.

This must be metal oxidation that looks like rust. There is no rust on the enameled piece at all, front or back.

I think the clay adhered to the oxidation on the metal that forms a circle.

I hope this cleanup helps to identify the piece.

 

[GpSnoopy]

Could this have been a fridge magnet? The round hole could be where the magnet was "glued or epoxied" to the metal.

 

[aurumdigga]

OK, there are no magnetic properties to this item. I used an earth magnet for the test.

The item is 6 & 1/2 tenths by 7 1/2 tenths in size.....almost square.

Where did you find that scale in tenths? In tenths of what? Is that an architectural scale? Is it scaled in inches? Is that metric underneath? Can you please tell us the size using standard American or Metric measurements such as 1-1/4 inch?

I used a foot ruler. I could have used centimeters but most Americans go by the inches to make sense of a foot rather than how many centimeters a foot is long. I was just giving a ball park size of the piece.

The basic ruler that I used was broken up in tenths per inch here. I could have said 13/20 inches by 15/20 inches but that would have been less informative. I was just estimating by using the ruler that I had.

If you are a European, I will translate this into centimeters for you. 16.5 cm by 19.1 cm.

Yes, this could have been Nickel plated but enameled pieces are put on nickel plate I suppose. I don't know how long they have been doing that. If this was a simple embellishment, I don't see where using silver would have been needed.

Thanks for the replies,...... Still a mystery though.

 

[GpSnoopy]

Aurumdigga, You must have meant 19.1mm x 16.5mm.

Anyways, this could also be a souvenir type item previously attached to almost anything, from decorative bolt head covers, light switch knob cover, to ornaments. Now knowing how small it is, it is making it harder to visualize what the hole in the back was used for.

Here's an example of the flag used for decorations, but I can't tell how it is attached in this picture.

 

[aurumdigga]

Thanks GPsnoopy, I like those boot flags. That looks cool. I did mean cm though. I think mm would have been mighty small.

I am going to post a three ringer that I dug up within a few yards of this flag item here. Then on another post, I am going to put a dime next to this item to get the full perspective of the size of the item. I dunno, measurements are hard to relate to items sometimes.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Aurumdigga, your "European arse" comment was both uncalled-for and factually-incorrect. The icon-&-member-info section on BigCypressHunter's posts shows he lives in South Florida. Also, the lingo in his writings (and especially his signature-line) shows he is definitely American-born-&-raised. ;-)

I've been watching this discussion for a while, waiting for the back of the CSA-flag "pin" to be cleaned before I said anything about it. Your newly-posted photo showing its cleaned-up back reveals that it is indeed nickel-plated. Therefore, I can now say with confidence that it definitely is from later than the civil war era. But as BigCypressHunter said, do not be discouraged ...there's still a significant quantity of civil war relics waiting to be dug up in the Atlanta area.

 

[GpSnoopy]

Thanks GPsnoopy, I like those boot flags. That looks cool. I did mean cm though. I think mm would have been mighty small.

I think we have a misunderstanding of cm vs inches. If you really meant cm, then you are telling us that the confederate flag item is about the same size as your entire hand. (16.5cm x 19.1cm = 6.5 inches x 7.5 inches)

Or is it about the size of an american nickle, which is 21.21mm in diameter.

 

[aurumdigga]

OK, I should have done this sooner.

Now you can see that this piece would fit on something very small. This is why I considered that it was some kind of clothes embellishment at first.

Thanks for the help if this size picture helps to figure it out.

Please excuse the shading. I need some more light for closeups indoors.

 

[aurumdigga]

Thanks GPsnoopy, I like those boot flags. That looks cool. I did mean cm though. I think mm would have been mighty small.

I think we have a misunderstanding of cm vs inches. If you really meant cm, then you are telling us that the confederate flag item is about the same size as your entire hand. (16.5cm x 19.1cm = 6.5 inches x 7.5 inches)

Or is it about the size of an american nickle, which is 21.21mm in diameter.

Wow, you are right big guy. I did mess up on that. I forgot to use .6.5 when I used my calculator. Opps on my part.

I was just reeling from the High School comment & I forgot what I was thinking. Good point big guy.

 

[aurumdigga]

One time I tried to have a serious discussion with a 12 year old. I cannot tell the age online. I was reprimanded by the moderators.


Are you in High School? Its hard to know the age of the person thats why I asked if you were in High School because todays kids are not well taught in some cases and they always use a calculator. Actually fractions are probably taught in Elementary school and a calculator is not needed to measure 3/4 of an inch.

I realize now that you are using a Metric architectural/engineers scale that measures in tenths of an inch (top pic) and you were trying to convert. A normal ruler measures in sixteenths. (count them bottom pic) And yes you were really confusing me with 2oths. I think I understand now.. In the future if you use an architectural scale, you need to tell us what scale you are using. Its written on the very end. (circled in red)

I tried to reply but something happened and that post went into cyberspace somewhere.

I was using an old mechanical drawing ruler of mine, it goes in tenths & 10 through 60. I guess I do need a metric ruler.

I was trying to put this find into perspective a bit. There are others that have found many Civil War finds on this same property. This is a known Civil War Battle area.

On the same day I found the three ringer, my buddy Bart found another one. Both bullets hit something. Bart's bullet was compressed to about half of the bullet's shape.

This are is a bit of a pristine area for metal detecting Civil war finds. It is in the heart of the Battle of Atlanta. This is also "Bloods Turf". It is a scary area to hunt. Luckily, there is a police station near where we are hunting. It will be another ten days before the rains lets up so we can hunt the area again.

I think we will be there for several trips in the future.

 

[aurumdigga]

I did some research to see if this could be a lapel pin of some kind. I found a site that has some pieces that are almost identical to this Flag item I found.

The great think about this site is that it gives you the actual size of the pin they carry in a blowup screen shot.

I measured each pin that would have been exactly like this pin. These pins were about a half an inch to 3/4 inches longer in width than this item I have.

This Flag item is so small that you could not see it if it were on your lapel. I mean, you could see it but these lapel pins are uniform in their size.

I have neodymium magnets that are covered in nickel chromium. If the badge was nickel chromium and the magnet was of the same covering of nickel chromium like my magnets are, the decay would have been the same.....yet....this item has no rust.

Check this site out.> http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...A28BD765BB4C5B14E21CCCA73&FORM=IQFRBA#x0y2407

Cool Confederate stuff is here too.

This is the smallest one I found.> http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...D58705698C8DAEBECC01D87&first=301&FORM=IDFRIR

Still my item is much smaller then any of these pins here.

This is why I still think this is an item that was part of an inlay embellishment on some kind of Sword or Knife maybe.

Still researching........and by the way. This item is too small to be a fridge magnet.

 

[aurumdigga]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...C8D231CFF78B3379A2E8B10C50B1A837A76F3&first=0

The link above is to a period replica piece that was fashioned into a pin. This pin dwarfs my item.

I also found out that the Navy had rectangle Confederate Flags from 1863 on. So both square and rectangle flags were used at the same time in the Civil War.

http://www.reunioncivilwar.com/LargePics/UCVRichmond1915.jpg

The link above is an actual piece with R. E. Lee on the enameled Confederate Flag.

One last thing. I only used the magnet on the front of the piece. When I used the magnet on the back, it stuck like glue. The circle of metal must be iron of some kind. Nickel is magnetic but it does not rust like this. If it was a magnet on the back, why encase it in some iron of some kind? That iron piece would be so small. It would be easier just to glue the magnet to the thing without a casing.

Going to bed. Tired of researching.

 

[GpSnoopy]

I had looked at lots of pins and many are as small as yours. You can't guage size by looking at a picture on your monitor, as it is not actual size and it varies depending on your monitor size and what resolution you have it set to. But a lot of the pins in your BING search had links to their websites and many listed the actual size.

Also, I've seen fridge magnets as small as 1/2" x 1/2", just none that small with a confederate flag yet, although I did find a 1" round one. 1" Round Rebel Magnet