Cave of gold bars

[nmth]

Just checking on GE and I get about 460 miles straight line from Chihuahua to Apache Junction.
Think they could have even done THAT distance in 10 days on foot Marius ?

Chihuahua to El Paso about 215 miles.....6 days x 36/day
El Paso to Victorio Peak about 80 miles....4 days x 20/day
Also straight line measurement, but open desert flatlands almost all the way.
Back then a Yaqui could have probably done that distance in ten days consecutive.

I thought I heard him say the *state* of Chihuahua in the video, but I have not gone back to verify it.

Stuck with me, though, as Ciudad Chihuahua is indeed much to far for many other elements of the story, at least to me.

He may have said "state" only once and then proceeded to just say Chihuahua after that. Someone might want to double-check.

 

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[markmar]

I thought I heard him say the *state* of Chihuahua in the video, but I have not gone back to verify it.

Stuck with me, though, as Ciudad Chihuahua is indeed much to far for many other elements of the story, at least to me.

He may have said "state" only once and then proceeded to just say Chihuahua after that. Someone might want to double-check.

You are right . Tony said " state of Chihuahua " . So , they could start just few miles down the US border , in the NW corner of the Cihuahua state of Mexico .

 

[somehiker]

You are right . Tony said " state of Chihuahua " . So , they could start just few miles down the US border , in the NW corner of the Cihuahua state of Mexico .

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The starting location is narrowed down a bit further around the 15 minute mark of the story as being in or near the town of Chihuahua, the point from which the Yaquis headed out in taking the church-related goodies to the cave.
That the story was told to Tony at a time when both he and "Yaqui" were at a location only 4 miles east of Florence, Arizona, should be considered good evidence that the Yaqui treasure site is not in that part of the country. Yaqui had made the journey previously with his Grandfather, had been married to a woman from San Carlos so likely knew Southern Arizona well, yet said they would have to start their journey from the State of Chihuahua .

 

[sdcfia]

The starting location is narrowed down a bit further around the 15 minute mark of the story as being in or near the town of Chihuahua, the point from which the Yaquis headed out in taking the church-related goodies to the cave.
That the story was told to Tony at a time when both he and "Yaqui" were at a location only 4 miles east of Florence, Arizona, should be considered good evidence that the Yaqui treasure site is not in that part of the country. Yaqui had made the journey previously with his Grandfather, had been married to a woman from San Carlos so likely knew Southern Arizona well, yet said they would have to start their journey from the State of Chihuahua .

IMO, one has to assume Yaqui was not being forthright with his tale. Let's say the treasure cave exists and Yaqui, wanting to talk about it and impress his eager young Anglo friend - but by all means not wanting to divulge the cave's true location - was simply being deceptive with the details, especially the distances traveled. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a Native told a half-fabricated tale to a gullible white guy.

Heck, I'm not so sure the Native wasn't actually an Apache tribal member and not a Yaqui, despite his assumed and seemingly arbitrary "name". After all, the authorities apparently didn't know or care about his true identity. All they knew is that he killed his wife in the early 20th century - his wife from the San Carlos res, by the way, which of course was Apache. For all we know, Yaqui could have been part of the Apache chief Juh's band, whose late 19th century home was in the Sierra Madre in the northern region of the State of Chihuahua. It's also conceivable that he may have been an original Yaqui who was captured young and raised as an Apache - not a rare occurrence in those days. Regardless, if he fudged the cave's location (there was no good reason for him to divulge it to a white guy), the cave could conceivably lie anywhere from south-central Arizona to south-central New Mexico. A hat-shaped mountain with a spring at its base.

 

[markmar]

The starting location is narrowed down a bit further around the 15 minute mark of the story as being in or near the town of Chihuahua, the point from which the Yaquis headed out in taking the church-related goodies to the cave.
That the story was told to Tony at a time when both he and "Yaqui" were at a location only 4 miles east of Florence, Arizona, should be considered good evidence that the Yaqui treasure site is not in that part of the country. Yaqui had made the journey previously with his Grandfather, had been married to a woman from San Carlos so likely knew Southern Arizona well, yet said they would have to start their journey from the State of Chihuahua .

Yes , that could be right , but D Aki told Tony how they got caught by an US patrol on the trip , who leaded them into the Indian San Carlos Reservation . I believe this occurred in Arizona , because if their trip would been in NM , then maybe they would been leaded to the Mescalero Indian Reservation which would been the closest of their target .

 

[somehiker]

IMO, one has to assume Yaqui was not being forthright with his tale. Let's say the treasure cave exists and Yaqui, wanting to talk about it and impress his eager young Anglo friend - but by all means not wanting to divulge the cave's true location - was simply being deceptive with the details, especially the distances traveled. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a Native told a half-fabricated tale to a gullible white guy.

Heck, I'm not so sure the Native wasn't actually an Apache tribal member and not a Yaqui, despite his assumed and seemingly arbitrary "name". After all, the authorities apparently didn't know or care about his true identity. All they knew is that he killed his wife in the early 20th century - his wife from the San Carlos res, by the way, which of course was Apache. For all we know, Yaqui could have been part of the Apache chief Juh's band, whose late 19th century home was in the Sierra Madre in the northern region of the State of Chihuahua. It's also conceivable that he may have been an original Yaqui who was captured young and raised as an Apache - not a rare occurrence in those days. Regardless, if he fudged the cave's location (there was no good reason for him to divulge it to a white guy), the cave could conceivably lie anywhere from south-central Arizona to south-central New Mexico. A hat-shaped mountain with a spring at its base.

Well, I'm not about to waste any hiking time anywhere out there looking for THAT cave, so if you guys want to base your own theories on such alternatives, that's fine by me.
I've got no problem accepting that the native probably was Yaqui, since Arizona has a significant number of them and I don't think it would have been unusual for one to marry an Apache.
Would also think that both court and prison records had much more than "Yaqui" on file, though prison officials probably DIDN'T care how he introduced himself. If he had been captured young, I doubt he could have made such a journey with his Yaqui grandfather though. As I've said, the tale sounds like it's based on a gathering of details from other treasure stories....Indian raids and missing church treasure, a cave full of goodies, a hat-shaped mountain somewhere out in the wilderness, Spanish and Mexican enemies and of course old armor and dead Spaniards inside the treasure cave itself. What's not to love about the story as told....hell, he even threw in a golden statue to sweeten the pot.



shot from across a canyon and 220 yards away.....no close-ups yet.

 

[somehiker]

Yes , that could be right , but D Aki told Tony how they got caught by an US patrol on the trip , who leaded them into the Indian San Carlos Reservation . I believe this occurred in Arizona , because if their trip would been in NM , then maybe they would been leaded to the Mescalero Indian Reservation which would been the closest of their target .

I'd have to go back and listen again, but I'm pretty sure the Yaquis had split into two groups, with the second group being the ones who were involved in the battle.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Having lived with the Yaqui for perhaps 5 years, I can tell you stories about them,,the young ones do not believe treasure stories, the older ones do. They long ago learned of the value of treasure stories for the gringos, still they do have quite a few from the French intervention

 

[Real of Tayopa]

This included the era of Carlos Castenada, A Yaqui medicine Man. a seris of books. that were very popular in the hippie era.

My mentor, juan', actually had an old widow woman killed because a scourer had told him that she had cast a spell upon him.

 

[sdcfia]

This included the era of Carlos Castenada, A Yaqui medicine Man. a seris of books. that were very popular in the hippie era.

My mentor, juan', actually had an old widow woman killed because a scourer had told him that she had cast a sell upon him.

Casteneda was the writer - Juan Matus was the sorcerer and his teacher. Most of the hippies only read the first two or three books in the series because those books described hallucinogenic experiences induced by certain plants and cacti. The remainder of the books got much more interesting, particularly beginning about book five (of eleven or twelve).

 

[sdcfia]

Well, I'm not about to waste any hiking time anywhere out there looking for THAT cave, so if you guys want to base your own theories on such alternatives, that's fine by me. ...

I totally agree. The provenance of the story, based on the telling we've heard, is way too corrupted. A guy would need direct proprietary information to even consider it - one degree of separation only. I will, however, visit the hill shown at 4:00 for an entirely different reason - and, hey, may as well look for a spring while I'm there.

 

[markmar]

sdcfia

When Tony showed his map and said how couldn't remember the datail from the original map of " ten or thirty paces " , suddenly came in my mind a map of Richard Harmond dated 1873 . I believe also how the " eagle nest " spot from Harmond map is very close to the Jesuit gold spot from DeGrazia Jesuit treasure map painting .

 

[Real of Tayopa]

you got it sdc, my friend.he popularized Peyote experiences. Incidentally he used quite a bit of literary license, still. er, not wanting to pry, what was your reason for reading the entire series? or coffee

I had just finished a 10 year stint of studying the paranormal, and it fit in nicely.

 

[sdcfia]

you got it sdc, my friend.he popularized Peyote experiences. Incidentally he used quite a bit of literary license, still. er, not wanting to pry, what was your reason for reading the entire series? or coffee

I had just finished a 10 year stint of studying the paranormal, and it fit in nicely.

Well, I've always wanted to know what reality is, and the Casteneda series provides an interesting perspective. Casteneda and his writings are not without controversy, as many have accused him of fabricating his entire apprenticeship with Matus. I can't say yes or no, but then I'm not so sure about many of the other spiritual writings we have access to either.

 

[audigger53]

Joe, in 1982 I visited with my old Band Director in Florence, Frank DeGrazia. He told me about his brother stopping by on his way back to his house. He stated to Frank that he had buried all his drawings and partial paintings that he thought of as his "Children" in PVC tubes and then wrapped in a carpet. This was because the IRS wanted to tax him on all of his non published works that were not completed to his satisfaction. Now do you think he lied to his brother? Buried is not in a cave. IMO

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, in 1982 I visited with my old Band Director in Florence, Frank DeGrazia. He told me about his brother stopping by on his way back to his house. He stated to Frank that he had buried all his drawings and partial paintings that he thought of as his "Children" in PVC tubes and then wrapped in a carpet. This was because the IRS wanted to tax him on all of his non published works that were not completed to his satisfaction. Now do you think he lied to his brother? Buried is not in a cave. IMO

au,

Not surprising that Frenck De Grazia would become a band director, as he started playing music in his pre-teen years.

From what I have learned, Ted first burned some of his paintings to save his family from having to pay tax's on work that had not been sold when he died.



There must be more to that story. Carol Locust, his mistress, was on the trip where the pictures were burned and writes about it in her book about De Grazia.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ORO18]

pinto creek

 

[ORO18]

i think what you have is called Cavaza prieta, it's the head portion of the real priest map not the altered version you see at the museum and on line. it's one spot one piece of the map puzle, there are more spots like yours that haven't been looted or vandalized yet.keep track of the empty vandalized spots you find and don't stop looking odds are you will turn one up!

 

[weekender]

Here are some videos i made from the head and the hole. The first shows the "marker" in the mouth (lol - that was a reason why I am flown to Arizona). The white on the stone ... is it an old painting or just lime? It f***ed me up. Sorry for my choice of words. The second shows the small cave (probably a prospect hole?). The third shows the backside of the head. There is a small painting/lime and a hole. the head looked to the opposite canyon and if i looked from behind the head thru the hole (eyes of the head) i could see a boulder. sorry for the sound it was the first day and i used a case does somebody hear anything untypical there over the past years?









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BlackLine,

I especially like the shadow of the witch on your last picture with the red circle.

 

[ORO18]

whey where you were standing when you took the last pic were you standing on triangulum, in a triangle carved into rock or payed out stones or something? if not there is something in the ground in front of you where you took that pic