Cave of gold bars

[sdcfia]

Tony's story sounded like a composition of details from several other treasure tales. ...

Yes, it's a bit mixed up all right. Some of it sounds like Victorio Peak. But - Yaquis at Victorio Peak on a yearly basis? Seems out of their range, but then the trek to the cave supposedly began in Chihuahua. Of course, the Native source could have been - and I'd say the odds are pretty decent that he was - being deceptive. Why wouldn't he? Maybe the Native was not a Yaqui, but an Apache. The storyteller slipped up on this at least once. Supposedly, the problem for searchers was finding a spring at the base of the properly-shaped hill. Lots of volcanic cones out there.

 

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[sdcfia]

Which Davis Mountain? Ha ha.

Sorry, nmth, I guess I owe you an explanation ... http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...vis-mountain-skeleton-canyon.html#post4894880

 

[audigger53]

After the Earthquake a lot of the springs dried up or came out at different places. Also the water table was a lot higher back in the late 1800's. What is now scrub desert east of Tucson use to be pine trees. Pete Kitchen's Ranch as a case in point. The photo I saw of it had a lot of Pine trees in it and now there are none.

 

[nmth]

Sorry, nmth, I guess I owe you an explanation ... http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...vis-mountain-skeleton-canyon.html#post4894880

No explanation needed this once. It's the general concept I was referring to. Wish I knew where actual Davis the mountain is... It was the closest (apocryphal) mass-market landmark to the hill T. Carter was referring to in the video I could come up with. There's reasons to think the video mixes multiple tales up. But, no mention of Zwing or Zanz? Anywho, there's white sand elsewhere than the actual gypsum of the Lake Lucero 2017 dot (blob) on the map. Apache, Yaqui - actually quite a distinction! Hmm. Consider that different folks and different times had different honor systems. I thought it was fairly well-established that Santa Rita was (re)discovered due to a debt of honor paid by a Native to a Spaniard? What about Spurgeon? But, that was just copper, not items of power. That part seems like something no one would ever reveal to an outsider, period. Still an interesting video.

 

[EarnieP]

A statue so heavy it took 10-12 Natives with pry sticks to move?
What kind of wagon did they use to haul that thing out into the desert and up(?) onto some mountain to the 'treasure cave'? Was there a road right up to that sacred secret site?


I've known some large powerful, hard working, Native Americans. But not one that I think would have gone to that much effort just to bury something that wasn't of any value to them. I call BS!

 

[somehiker]

Ox cart ?
I think Tony meant that a pole similar to what was sometimes used to carry big game was employed in order to carry the statue.
As I recall, Joe once posted a tale about being part of a group who found a solid gold life sized statue in a cave. He said it was too heavy for them to haul, so they cut it into several pieces in order to get it out of the mountains. Maybe he can re-post it.

 

[somehiker]

Yes, it's a bit mixed up all right. Some of it sounds like Victorio Peak. But - Yaquis at Victorio Peak on a yearly basis? Seems out of their range, but then the trek to the cave supposedly began in Chihuahua. Of course, the Native source could have been - and I'd say the odds are pretty decent that he was - being deceptive. Why wouldn't he? Maybe the Native was not a Yaqui, but an Apache. The storyteller slipped up on this at least once. Supposedly, the problem for searchers was finding a spring at the base of the properly-shaped hill. Lots of volcanic cones out there.

I watched the video again, but didn't see where "annual" was mentioned. Sounded more like occasional to me.
He said a 10 day walk to the north from where they lived in Chihuahua to the cave, 4 days beyond El Paso.
By the late 1800's, several groups of Yaqui had been dispersed to Texas, New Mexico and Arizona, with at least one particularly rebellious multi-family group taking up residence in Jimenez, Chihuahua. My guess is that "Yaqui" was originally from that group.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Chihuahua_mexico_map.jpg

Some of their history here....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Band_of_Yaqui_Indians
Yaqui - New World Encyclopedia
http://www.thecommunitypaper.com/archive/12_14/index.php

Gotta remember though, that Tony was 15-17 when he was told all of this by Yaqui, and had been interested in treasure tales since he was eight, according to his testimony.
So I can certainly see the possibility that details from other stories gradually became a part of this one.

 

[sdcfia]

I watched the video again, but didn't see where "annual" was mentioned. Sounded more like occasional to me.
He said a 10 day walk to the north from where they lived in Chihuahua to the cave, 4 days beyond El Paso.
By the late 1800's, several groups of Yaqui had been dispersed to Texas, New Mexico and Arizona, with at least one particularly rebellious multi-family group taking up residence in Jimenez, Chihuahua. My guess is that "Yaqui" was originally from that group....

Tony mentioned he had maps that "included El Paso", but I don't recall that he actually named the Rio Grande. What if the river they crossed was not the Rio Grande?

 

[markmar]

And , how they could pass the Rio Grande at El Paso with a huge statue without been observed ?
I believe then was a specific place to pass the river and also was watched by frontier men ?

More possible they were traveling NW to Arizona through Skeleton Canyon . A lot of white sands in Arizona following that route

 

[somehiker]

Tony mentioned he had maps that "included El Paso", but I don't recall that he actually named the Rio Grande. What if the river they crossed was not the Rio Grande?

View attachment 1483342

That thought had I as well, but there was also that "no water from the river crossing".... until the spring at the base of the hill is reached.
As far as the spring goes. Many springs do not run year round, but do flow good fresh water at those times when travel is also more practical.

 

[somehiker]

And , how they could pass the Rio Grande at El Paso with a huge statue without been observed ?
I believe then was a specific place to pass the river and also was watched by frontier men ?

More possible they were traveling NW to Arizona through Skeleton Canyon . A lot of white sands in Arizona following that route

He said the statue was wrapped in rugs. Maybe they told the frontier men it was a relative's body.....a couple of pieces of rotting meat also in the rug would have discouraged most from getting too inquisitive IMO. If it was me smugglin the goods, I woulda had a decomposing arm or leg sticking part way out....just for effect ya know.

 

[somehiker]

While researching some of this Yaqui business, I came across this old photo of a large procession of Yaqui captives....



That hill in the background also looks similar to the one on the drawing.
But it's in Mexico.

 

[somehiker]

Just checking on GE and I get about 460 miles straight line from Chihuahua to Apache Junction.
Think they could have even done THAT distance in 10 days on foot Marius ?

Chihuahua to El Paso about 215 miles.....6 days x 36/day
El Paso to Victorio Peak about 80 miles....4 days x 20/day
Also straight line measurement, but open desert flatlands almost all the way.
Back then a Yaqui could have probably done that distance in ten days consecutive.

 

[somehiker]

A statue so heavy it took 10-12 Natives with pry sticks to move?
What kind of wagon did they use to haul that thing out into the desert and up(?) onto some mountain to the 'treasure cave'? Was there a road right up to that sacred secret site?


I've known some large powerful, hard working, Native Americans. But not one that I think would have gone to that much effort just to bury something that wasn't of any value to them. I call BS!

Something else I came across while "checking out" stuff on the Yaqui....

https://goo.gl/images/LMG5HF

Ya, I know what yer thinkin.....suits my avatar
"Hell,you ain't never too old to look!"

But her last name happens to be Dominguez.....where have we heard that name before. The Iron Crucifix was said to have been purchased from the Dominguez brothers of Guadelupe, wasn't it ?
Guadelupe also happens to be where many Yaqui live. And the only Dominguez brothers I found in Guadelupe myself, were in the business of horse breeding and sales, another Yaqui specialty. Don't know if they're Yaqui, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were. And if they were the ones who sold the "crucifix", then where did they get it, I wonder ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Ox cart ?
I think Tony meant that a pole similar to what was sometimes used to carry big game was employed in order to carry the statue.
As I recall, Joe once posted a tale about being part of a group who found a solid gold life sized statue in a cave. He said it was too heavy for them to haul, so they cut it into several pieces in order to get it out of the mountains. Maybe he can re-post it.

Wayne,

I stated numerous times in that story that it was "just a story". Beyond that, I believe I said that in some future date a (some) treasure hunters would be digging up that area of West Boulder looking for left over treasure. Did you meet anyone else while you were out there?

My story was an illustration of how anyone, who knew history well, could reverse engineer a believable treasure tale complete with locations and historical figures, making it very believable.

If I am able, hope to see you at this years Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Riverbum]

Somehiker,
I know of the TARAHUMARAS ,I believe are from the Northern Mexico area, and are relatives to Yaquis & Apaches. This Group was well know for covering very long distances in the desert, with little or no water. I only mention this because they were resilient strong, and near by all this action around the Superstitions. Just a thought on my part. Thank You

Just checking on GE and I get about 460 miles straight line from Chihuahua to Apache Junction.
Think they could have even done THAT distance in 10 days on foot Marius ?

Chihuahua to El Paso about 215 miles.....6 days x 36/day
El Paso to Victorio Peak about 80 miles....4 days x 20/day
Also straight line measurement, but open desert flatlands almost all the way.
Back then a Yaqui could have probably done that distance in ten days consecutive.

 

[cactusjumper]

Ox cart ?
I think Tony meant that a pole similar to what was sometimes used to carry big game was employed in order to carry the statue.
As I recall, Joe once posted a tale about being part of a group who found a solid gold life sized statue in a cave. He said it was too heavy for them to haul, so they cut it into several pieces in order to get it out of the mountains. Maybe he can re-post it.

Wayne,

Here is what I wrote in 2011:

Mar 28, 2011, 12:37 PM
#882 cactusjumper

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Dec 2005

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[h=2]Re: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?[/h]

Buscar,

"...I do not know Joe’s intentions for telling the story the way he did..."

Welcome to TNet. Good to see you posting here.

My intentions for telling that fictional story, were simple. I was trying to illustrate how easy if is to create a treasure story that is based on history, geography and local legends. I made it a point to keep repeating that it was "just a story".

As for Harry, I have only seen two documents that support a Harry La France existing in Arizona. One is a 1930 Census, and the other is the death certificate you have posted, which uses his legal name, I presume. The 1930 Census uses Harry La France. That is also on the signature that appears on the back of a topographic map that my Uncle Chuck had. I have that map now.

Ted DeGrazia had contact with the La France family. He signed one of his book to them. I have that book. The Harry La France that shows up in the 1930 Census was living in a hotel in Tucson......DeGrazia's home town.

No doubt it's just a coincidence, but it certainly makes for some interesting speculation.

When you tie in the Stone Maps, and the fact that Harry's path took him right through the trail maps, it starts to get even more interesting. Probably just another coincidence. Web's of strange coincidences are what create's legends and many fables.

Using my version of the trail maps overlaid on a topographic map, I wonder if your boulder picture shows up anywhere.

Take care,

Joe

The entire story can be found in JESUIT TREASURES-ARE THEY REAL.

Take care,

Joe



​

 

[cactusjumper]

This was the beginning of my STORY:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real-19.html

It was the start of a few pages of a tall, tall story. It was fun to write and research. Some points I knew, some historical parts I had to look up.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

This was the beginning of my STORY:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real-19.html

It was the start of a few pages of a tall, tall story. It was fun to write and research. Some points I knew, some historical parts I had to look up.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks for the link Joe. Without it, I would have likely spent hours and much of what's left of my own feeble memory in trying to find the original "source" documentation.
Even better would have been a video of you telling your treasure tale with the dead serious expression that we have all come to know so well.....that is, if you could have maintained such a countenance throughout such an interview as that given to Tony. From the link, here it is...

Roy,

According to many in the Dutch Hunting Community, I discovered Harry LaFrance's Cave Of Gold Bars on the north side and below Superstition Peak, in 2005. It is said that myself and a small team (six men) removed a fortune of gold bullion from the cave and moved it out of the mountains to a small mine we had purchased for storage. The location of that mine is being kept secret for obvious reasons.

Since then, most of the gold has been sold to anonymous parties, but the records of that sale are being held in a bank vault in Switzerland, along with most of the funds from the sales.

In Apache Junction this is common knowledge and has been for five years now. It is the accepted "history" for the locals, yet it has not been made public knowledge until now. For proof, I can provide pictures of the cave, as well as the gold bars that were removed.

The site has been visited by many treasure hunters and it is well known. In the back of the cave, were stacks of paintings, painted by Ted DeGrazia. There was also a life size, solid gold, statue of a Jesuit priest, which was sold to a private collector.

The Mexican collector who purchased the Jesuit statue, had it authenticated by the well known archaeologist, Felipe R. Solis Olguin. At some point in time, he intends to donate it to the National Anthropology Museum in Mexico City. All of the records of authentication are sealed until the statue is donated to the museum.

The six foot solid gold cross was buried nearby. It came from the Jesuit Mission in the canyon below the cave/mine. I am at work now, but when I get home I will post pictures of mission ruins.

The cave of gold bars was a documented find, and has been mentioned in many books.

All of this information can be confirmed by Dale Provence, who is living somewhere in California on a large gated estate.

Beyond that, I firmly believe the above story is true.

Take care,

Joe

and this....

Don Jose,

Did you ever consider that the artifacts were cast on location? Is it your considered opinion that it would be impossible to remove the statue from the mountains.....by legal or illegal means?

The statue weighed 34,250 pounds, + or - a couple of pounds. It left the mountains in six pieces. The cross is still resting where it had been buried.
In order to remove the statue from the mountains, we had to calculate how much it weighed, and how much each of the six pieces weighed.

Take care,

Joe

Of course, I too had some fun with your treasure tale as you correctly saw in this reply I made....

Hey Joe:
Kudos on your efforts to rid the mountains of so much worthless modern day litter.I hope that you gave the Mexican collector a "cut-rate price" on the fake Jesuit statue.

I am sure that,in the event that some government agency should wish to prosecute you and your team with some bogus charge of theft of antiquities and religious artifacts,that your storefront lawyer will utterly destroy the prosecution.

Armed with a briefcase full of irrefutable documents proving that Jesuit valuables did not and could not have ever existed in the America's,he will easily make a mockery of any claim that the authorities might make.If they should resurrect Dr. Olguin as a witness for the prosecution,your lawyer(in fact any paralegal with at least two hours of courtroom experience)could respond with an endless parade of acclaimed historians,archaeologists and best selling authors that would bring Dr. Olguin's credibility into the realm of quackery.

It will be a treat to follow the proceedings as witnesses testify that each and every one of the DeGrazia paintings are also worthless fakes,since they cannot be found in any catalogue of his works.Besides,"They do resemble those fake stone maps with Chuck's face on the "Priest",do they not,your Honor?".

Any suggestion that your environmental efforts to "pack it out" involves objects that are of greater age than fifty years can be effortlessly dispelled by the fact that no older object of Jesuit origin has ever been found within the area that could not be classified as phony by experts and therefore of more recent creation.

It'll be a ....."if the glove don't fit"......cakewalk.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas to all you fellow dreamers:SH.

It was Curt Gentry who first brought the story of the cave with the gold priest statue to print in his book "The Killer Mountains" first published back in 1968.

Mike gave one version in a post on another site:

"In Curt Gentry's Book "The Killer Mountains", he relates the story of how Glenn MaGill, while researching the Dutchman's Lost Mine, came to meet a newspaperman named Robert Crandall (pages 27-31). When MaGill said to Crandall that he understood Crandall had spent a good deal of time looking for the LDM, Crandall replied "Not five minutes. I've spent about ten years in those mountains all right, but I was looking for the Jesuit Priests' Treasure."

Here is what got Crandall hooked on the jesuit Priests' Treasure: "One time while visiting Ed Piper, he and Piper had happened upon a man near death in one of the canyons. He had been hiking he said, when he stumbled into a hole and broke his leg. On recovering consciousness, he had seen the figure of a priest standing before him. At first, he thought it was an hallucination, but on looking closer discovered it was a statue made entirely of gold (such a statue, life size, not only made of gold, but filled with gold dust was also part of the legend). The hole, the man discovered, was in reality a large cave. With considerable effort, he had finally had finally extricated himself. But when Piper and Crandall questioned him about the cave's location, he lapsed into unconsciousness. He died the same night at the hospital in Florence without ever recovering consciousness." Tell me that wouldn't make you an avowed treasure hunter after experiencing something like that?

The first couple of times I read the story, I assumed the man's leg had punched into a hole, and he saw the statue through the hole from above. After a closer reading, it appears the man had actually fallen through the roof of a cave and was laying in front of the statue. If the statue was life-size (about 6ft), and the guy was able to climb back out says to me that the cave roof must not have been very high up. Maybe eight or ten feet.

So, what have you got to add to the legend?

Best-Mike"


Tom K. has also written about the cave(s).

​

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Caves of Gold Bars

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

I stated numerous times in that story that it was "just a story". Beyond that, I believe I said that in some future date a (some) treasure hunters would be digging up that area of West Boulder looking for left over treasure. Did you meet anyone else while you were out there?

My story was an illustration of how anyone, who knew history well, could reverse engineer a believable treasure tale complete with locations and historical figures, making it very believable.

If I am able, hope to see you at this years Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

I figure on being there myself, so I hope you can make it as well.
I'm sure you realized at the time that I knew what you were up to, and was playing along in my own way.
Like you, I'd rather spend my time researching and searching for something like a cave of gold bars, than for someplace where I'd have to swing a pick in cramped quarters.
West Boulder was deserted the only time I hiked in and out of there. Most places usually are when I do my more serious exploring.
But that was well before you told your "story".

Regards:Wayne