Carved Horn Scrimshaw - The Holy Graile?

[Lucky Eddie]

Anyone know the history of this piece?

What I do know is this.

It has been in my family now for 4 or 5 generations (My Great Great grandmothers) and originated in England.
The surviving family knowledge went like this.
My grandmother emigrated to Australia from England in 1901.
Her grandmother as a child was an indentured servant in a manor house for most of her life.
In that house, above a fire place & hearth, hung on a silken chord was a green hunting horn.
Great Great Grandmothers job included dusting, with a feather duster.

The old man who owned the Manor house passed away - and the house and contents were to be auctioned, proceeeds to be split between the surviving family heirs.

While cleaning the house prior to auction my great great grandmother was in her early teens and happened to dust the green hunting horn - during which, the fragile silken chord weakened from years of rising heat from the fireplace, broke.
The green hunting horn, fell to the brick hearth - and broke / shattered.
Hidden (secreted within) inside this green hunting horn, was the carved cow horn piece you see below.

The Lady of the house came to investigate the sound of the breaking horn and was rather annoyed. She claimed she never liked the hunting horn anyway and her deceased father obtained it at an auction - she instructed my great great grandmother to keep the piece from within as a parting "gift" for her service which was likely coming to an end with the sale of the house.

Thus this piece of carved cow horn history of unknown age and prevenance, has remained within my family ever since.
I always romanticized that it was associated with the Holy Grail Romances of the middle ages.

I took a series of photos all around and pieced them together roughly with MS paint to get an all round story board of the carvings to see if they relate a particular story or period of time in history?

I see things like St George slaying the dragoon, I see the 7 headed "beast of revelations" - I see our lady of Blind Justice standing over a wolf with a sword ready to defeat evil.

I see a one eyed king?... (King Harold?) (In the Sun representation - the veiled face "moon" being his queen)?

There sat Harold,
on his horse.
his hawk in his hand,
and an arrow in his eye!

Who is the saracen type head, carved in bass relief style - totally different to the rest of the carving style?

What about the rest of you - anyone have any ideas what story/s are represented here? - why the anchient piece spent so long secreted within a hunting horn, hung over a mantlepiece?
Why was it secreted - to hide it from the inquisition?

Most such carvings (scrimshaw) I have seen of later periods, are maritime scenes done into ivory whales tooth / Walrus tooth - not cow horn.

I've not ever been able to find out any details - my parent once on a trip to England in the 1970's took it to the London Museum of Mankind - who weren't particularly interested and thought maybe it originatyed in eastern europe somewhere?

Could it represent Arthurian legend? Lancelot & Guenevere?, what about King Richard the Lionheart - didn't he have a Loyal Saracen friend when he returned from the crusades?

That's about as much as I know! Overall length is about 4 inches and average diameter about 2 inches.
Who knows - maybe it's a treasure map story of some kind?
It seems to be involved with the dynasty of a king, queen and family and church.
Could it be masonic/templar in origin - and referring to the preservation of Christs titular bloodline, as is preserved to this day by the Prieurre de Sion?
I've wondered about this piece now for almost 50 years.
If it was a cup at any period - it may have had maybe a wooden insert as a base sealed with wax or something - In all the time We've had it - it never had any bottom - more like it might have been a decorative ceremonial rolled cloth napkin holder for placement on the table?

Anyone?

Cheers

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[trikikiwi]

Re: The Holy Graile?

I love it; there are so many things happenin' there.
I look forward to hearing from the KO's (Knowledgeable Ones)

Mike

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Re: The Holy Graile?

If you look at the top photo - showing the circular sun like face, with one eye and wearing a crown like a king, - next to it you see a slender fish with line coming out its mouth.

This made me think of a king - fishing, maybe......a fisher king!

I googled this.

Source:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

The Fisher King, or the Wounded King, figures in Arthurian legend as the latest in a line charged with keeping the Holy Grail. Versions of his story vary widely, but he is always wounded in the legs or groin, and incapable of moving on his own. When he is injured, his kingdom suffers as he does, his impotence affecting the fertility of the land and reducing it to a barren Wasteland. Little is left for him to do but fish in the river near his castle Corbenic. Knights travel from many lands to heal the Fisher King, but only the chosen can accomplish the feat. This is Percival in the earlier stories; in the later versions, he is joined by Galahad and Bors.

Confusingly, many works have two wounded Grail Kings who live in the same castle, a father and son (or grandfather and grandson). The more seriously wounded father stays in the castle, sustained by the Grail alone, while the more active son can meet with guests and go fishing. For clarity, the father will be called the Wounded King, the son the Fisher King where both appear in the remainder of this article.

Celtic mythology

The Fisher King appears first in Chrétien de Troyes' Perceval, but the character's roots may lie in Celtic mythology. He may be derived more or less directly from the figure of Bran the Blessed in the Mabinogion; in the Second Branch, Bran had a cauldron that could resurrect the dead (albeit imperfectly; those thus revived could not speak after they were resurrected), which he gave to the king of Ireland as a wedding gift for him and his sister Branwen. Later, he wages war on the Irish and is wounded in the foot or leg, and the cauldron is destroyed. He asks his followers to sever his head and take it back to Britain, and his head continues talking and keeps them company on their trip. The group lands in Grassholm, where they spend 80 years in a castle of joy and abundance, but finally they leave and bury Bran's head in London. This story has analogues in two other important Welsh texts: the Mabinogion tale Culhwch and Olwen, in which King Arthur's men must travel to Ireland to retrieve a magical cauldron, and the obscure poem The Spoils of Annwn, which speaks of a similar mystical cauldron sought by Arthur in the otherworldly land of Annwn.

In the Welsh Romance Peredur son of Efrawg, based on Chrétien (or derived from a common original) but containing several prominent deviations, the Grail has been removed. The character of the Fisher King appears (though he is not called such) and presents Peredur with a severed head on a platter. Peredur later learns he was related to that king, and that the severed head was that of his cousin, whose death he must avenge.

[edit] Later medieval works

The Fisher King's next development occurs in Robert de Boron's Joseph d'Arimathie about the end of the 12th century, the first work to connect the Grail with Jesus. Here, the "Rich Fisher" is called Bron, a name similar enough to Bran to suggest a relationship, and he is said to be the brother-in-law of Joseph of Arimathea, who had used the Grail to catch Christ's blood before laying him in the tomb. Joseph founds a religious community that travels eventually to Britain, and he entrusts the Grail to Bron. Bron, called the "Rich Fisher" because he catches a fish eaten at the Grail table, founds the line of Grail keepers that eventually includes Perceval.

In the Didot-Perceval, thought to be a prosification of a lost work by Robert de Boron, Bron is called the "Fisher King", and his story is told when Percival returns to his castle and asks the healing question.

Wolfram von Eschenbach takes up Chrétien's story and expands it greatly in his epic Parzival. He reworks the nature of the Grail and the community that surrounds it, and gives names to characters Chrétien left nameless (the Wounded King is Titurel and the Fisher King is Anfortas).

[edit] Pelles

The Lancelot-Grail cycle includes a more elaborate backstory for the Fisher King. Many in his line are wounded for their failings, and the only two that survive to Arthur's day are the Wounded King, called Pellam or Pellehan, and the Fisher King, Pelles. Pelles engineers the birth of Galahad by tricking Lancelot into bed with his daughter Elaine, and it is prophesied that Galahad will achieve the Grail and heal the Wasteland. In the Post-Vulgate Cycle and Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, the Fisher King's wound was given to him by Sir Balin in the "Dolorous Stroke". To defend himself from an enraged Pellam, Balin grabs a spear and stabs him. The spear is the Spear of Longinus, however, and Pellam and his land must suffer for its misuse until the coming of Galahad.

In Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, there are four characters (some of whom can probably be identified with each other) filling the role of Fisher King or Wounded King:

1. King Pellam, wounded by Balyn, as in the Post-Vulgate.
2. King Pelles, grandfather of Galahad, described as "the maimed king". In one passage he is explicitly identified with Pellam; in another, however, he is said to have suffered his wound in quite different circumstances.
3. King Pescheour or Petchere, lord of the Grail Castle, who never appears on stage (at least under that name). He owes his existence to a mistake by Malory, who took the Old French roy Peschour ("Fisher King", a phrase Malory never otherwise uses) for a name rather than an epithet. Nevertheless, Malory treats him as distinct from Pelles.
4. An anonymous, bedridden Maimed King, healed by Galahad at the climax of the Grail Quest. He is definitely distinct from Pelles, who has just been sent out of the room, and who is anyway at least mobile.

It would appear that Malory intended to have one Maimed King, wounded by Balin and suffering until healed by his grandson Galahad, but never managed to successfully reconcile his sources.

King Pelles is the name of the Maimed King in some versions of the Arthurian legend. One of a line of Grail keepers established by Joseph of Arimathea, Pelles is the father of Eliazer and Elaine, mother of Galahad, and resides in the castle of Corbinec in Listenois. Pelles and his relative Pellehan appear in both the Vulgate (Lancelot-Grail) and Post-Vulgate Cycles, as well as in later works, such as Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur (in which Pellehan is called Pellam). In the Vulgate, Pelles is the son of Pellehan, but the Post-Vulgate is less clear about their relationship. It is even murkier in Malory's work: one passage explicitly identifies them (book XVIII, chapter 5), though this is contradicted elsewhere.

Galahad, the knight prophesied to achieve the Holy Grail and heal the Maimed King, is conceived when Elaine gets Dame Brisen to use magic to trick Lancelot into thinking he is coming to visit Guenever "to lay with her.". So Lancelot sleeps with Elaine, thinking her Guenever, but flees when he realizes what he has done. Galahad is raised by his aunt in a convent, and when he is eighteen, comes to King Arthur's court and begins the Grail quest. Only he, Percival, and Bors are virtuous enough to achieve the Grail and restore Pelles.

[edit] Modern takes on the legend

Richard Wagner used the myth in his opera Parsifal, based on Wolfram's work. Some critics claim that T. S. Eliot made use of the legend in his poem The Waste Land, although there is disagreement as to how, to what extent, or if at all.[1]

In Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle, Merlin's grandfather Avallach, previously a king of lost Atlantis, is explicitly called the Fisher King. He carries a wound never healed from battle and spends his later years in Britain fishing on the lake. The character appears again in opera in Michael Tippett's The Midsummer Marriage, partly inspired by Eliot's poem.

The story is told in Éric Rohmer's 1978 film Perceval le Gallois, based on Chrétien de Troye's Perceval. The story of a wounded king whose wounds cause the land to become a wasteland, then healed by the grail recovered by Percival, is woven directly into the story of King Arthur in John Boorman's 1981 film Excalibur. The story is also dealt with in the 1991 movie The Fisher King, directed by Terry Gilliam and starring Jeff Bridges and Robin Williams.

Other modern takes on the Fisher King appear in novels like C. S. Lewis' That Hideous Strength, Paule Marshall's The Fisher King: A Novel, Tim Powers' novels The Drawing of the Dark and Last Call, Susan Cooper's The Grey King (part of the The Dark is Rising Sequence), and Matt Wagner's comic book series Mage. Don Nigro's play Fisher King retells the story during the American Civil War. In 1998, David Crosby wrote and recorded a song with the band CPR, called "Somehow She Knew", based on personal experiences and the movie The Fisher King. Joan Didion compared president Ronald Reagan to the legendary king in her critical essay "In the Realm of the Fisher King," published in 1989. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series includes a game where the central piece is called "the Fisher", which is a piece in the shape of an old, blinded and wounded man.

(Bold & Italics is My emphasis)

Just wondering if we have King Harold after his wound in the eye being depicted as the Fisher King?

Again from wickepedia

Source:- http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=post;topic=300913.0;num_replies=1

The Battle of Hastings (14 October 1066) was the decisive Norman victory in the Norman Conquest of England. It was fought between the Norman army of Duke William II of Normandy and the English army of Harold II.[1] The battle took place at Senlac Hill, approximately 6 miles northwest of Hastings, close to the present-day town of Battle, East Sussex.

Harold II was killed in the battle—it is traditionally said that he was shot through the eye with an arrow. Although there was further English resistance, this battle is seen as the point at which William gained control of England.

The famous Bayeux Tapestry depicts the events before and during the battle. Battle Abbey in East Sussex was subsequently built on the site of the conflict.

And what of St George fighting the biblical dragon with 7 heads of revelation scene?

Again wickipedia

Source:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon

he episode of Saint George and the Dragon appended to the hagiography of Saint George was Eastern in origin,[1] brought back with the Crusaders and retold with the courtly appurtenances belonging to the genre of Romance. The earliest known depictions of the motif are from tenth- and elevent-century Cappadocia[2] and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia;[3] the earliest known surviving narrative is an eleventh-century Georgian text.[4]

The dragon motif was first combined with the already standardised Passio Georgii in Vincent of Beauvais' encyclopedic Speculum Historiale, and then Jacobus de Voragine's Golden Legend guaranteed its popularity in the later Middle Ages as a literary and pictorial subject.[5] The legend gradually became part of the Christian traditions relating to Saint George and was used in many festivals thereafter.[6]

Who then are all these other characters that appear to have a Religious leader (pontiff?) or perhaps Archbishop? and A queen with two swords crossed across her breast, a Princess carrying a female child, and the lady with the scales of justice in one hand and the sword defeating the devil dog in another?

Is this some religious legends storyboard?.

Keen to hear what other think about the characters - who they might represent and what age this piece might be?.

Also - why it was secreted away inside a hunting horn?

Cheers

 

[DCMatt]

Re: The Holy Graile?

This is a VERY interesting piece.

No offense intended but I suggest you change the thread title so it won't be dismissed as another "fruit basket" posting. Simply call it what it is - Carved horn (scrimshaw)

I also suggest you post clear, closeup pics of each image on the horn.

I see what you mean about the one eyed king and the seven headed beast. There surely is more symbolism we can use to determine the story and/or the characters depicted.

Who or what is standing next to the Pope? A guy with a sword on his head? What's that about?

I, too, look forward to some ideas coming from the forum.

DCMatt

 

[johnnyi]

Re: The Holy Graile?

Eddie, this is just a guess, but to me it seems to relate more to the New World then it does English. There appear to be "natives" (S.Am.) in possibly a canoe, several Suns, what could be a gold scale being held, possible depiction of Madona and child with cross (possibly catholic) etc..

 

[gollum]

If I had to guess, I would say it is an Aboriginal Piece from Australia. Late 1800s to early 1900s. Carving looks very Abo to me.

Seeing as how Oz was a British Colony, it could be a way of teaching Abos British History & Folklore (Holy Grail, St. George, etc).

Best-Mike

 

[DCMatt]

I'm hoping the UK guys will chime in on this one. I would guess medieval or there abouts. But what do I know. I'm just an American. If it's more than 200 - 300 years old, I haven't a clue...

Some of the characters seem crudely carved, yet there is lots of detail. Did you notice the Queen is breastfeeding the child? A popular medieval depiction of women...

More detailed pics would help a lot.

DCMatt

 

[Lucky Eddie]

DC Matt,

Good idea - Title Changed!

The horn is in storage - not with me at present - so I don't have ability to take more photo's right now, the piece is only 4 inches tall & I am as close as I could get with my camera (focus). We can see each character close enough for details I think. (I have handled and stared at this piece so many times over the years that I think I know each character well enough to have spotted the details like King / sun missing one eye etc).

The guy with the sword over his head - I always referred to this character as "the bishop" He always just looked to me like the chess piece of bishop, with the sword of Damocles hanging over his head. I often wondered if this didn't depict say a Catholic Bishop / Papal legate, after King Henry the 8th decided to separate from the Catholic church, and form his own Protestant Church of England, under the archbishop of Canterbury?. Maybe the sword of Damocles is depicted thus "hanging over his head" for this reason?.

I've often wondered why the guy next to him with the long staff with an unusual end (not a shepherds crook?) has what appears to be a monkey wrench and smaller hammer hanging on the front of his tunic - whats that all about? (I.e. doesnt appear to be any type of "masonic" / templar imagery that I'm aware of).

Another thing - the knight on his horse!

What year did knights start riding horses with the depicted stirrups?

I thought that up until the Battle of Hastings 1066 only a few knights actually rode horses, is there any clue in there - that we know historically what year / period the use of stirrups on horses by knights etc began?.... what year were stirrups for horses invented / commonplace in England? I thought this might be a clue for dating the piece to a period after that time historically?

Johnnyi

Thanks for your suggestion about the new world and natives in a canoe - I admit that I thought something similar when I first saw it as a kid - however closer study in later years as I grew up shows the "canoe" to have its own head with horns and 4 legs with claws.....

It seems to be closely aligned to the 7 headed beast of revelations (one with 10 horns?). (I count in total ~ 17 horns on the 7 heads).

The beasts head seems to have one tooth and be breathing fire out its mouth?

There is yet more symbolism - who's the moon motif woman with half veiled face?

Who is the princess with child?

Who is the queen with sword and arrow crossed on her chest? Could she represent Joan of Arc? (Jean of Acre)?
What is the symbolism of the round circle within circle design displayed on the middle front lower part of her dress and is their depicted a "breastplate" on her chest? Didn't one of the early Victoria or Elisabeth Queens lead her country England, to war against Scotland at one time?

The Upside down devil dog under the lady with scales of justice and a sword - why is it depicted with two ears, a mouth and a long horn protruding from its forehead?

The Saracens head with 2 big ears - to me seems to have been added maybe later? It's in a totally different style of much deeper "bass relief" carving, and bears no resemblance at all to the much more refined scrimshaw "line carved" method of the rest of the piece.

Could it have fallen briefly into Saracen hands during the crusades period and they decided to add one of their characters to the story?

So many questions I can think of with all the "characters".

Maybe if we were to number and name each one - we could all then use the same reference to each character for discussion so theres no ongoing confusion about which character is which?

Heres a suggested starting list! (starting from the left)

1. Queen/Moon with half veiled face, smiling mouth
Top Row
2. The Fish with line out his mouth
3. 7 headed beast of revelations
4. St George (Fighting the dragon/beast).
5. Saracen head
6. Harold 2nd - Sun / King (One eyed)
Bottom Row
7. Arch Bishop with weird double shepherds crook, Monkey Wench and hammer hanging from his tunic.
8. Papal legate/Bishop with Sword of Damocles hanging above his head.
9. Queen or princess with female child in arms. Cross on collar and jewel hung around neck / cleavage.
10. Queen / Jean of arc, with crossed arrow and sword across her breast, breastplate, and unusual circle within circle design on dress.
11. Lady Justice with scales and sword standing over -
12. On its back devil dog with horn coming out it's forehead (or flame out of its mouth)?

These are just my fanciful descriptions of the "cast of characters" who seem to adorn this carved story board of scrimshaw bone carvings.

Maybe its a child's "fairy tale book" (history book?) to aid telling bedtime stories of the nations history to children as a kind of verbal tradition of history, much like Australia's Aboriginals had a verbal dream time stories heritage, supported by their rock carvings "Petroglyphs" and cave paintings as "aid memoir" to telling / remembering the story's?.

Maybe a court jester used it to remember his "stories" to entertain the king and his entourage at feasts - so as not to "forget his lines" for favorite tales of the court?

Still the "question"...remains, why was it secreted away inside a hunting horn?...were the story's offensive to say - the inquisition?.

Was there a period of history where it was important to hide it away?

Is there a series of story's from the middle ages like "Parsivals Grail Romances" etc where all of these characters have their place in a play/s for example..could it belong to say the performing arts crowd of the period as their story board of a particular play / plays?

Like I said, I've had years to ponder this thing...

What it was used for (functionality)? (Was it part of a "set" used to say hold rolled up cloth napkins at a dinner table, each with different cues to stories for the diner to recite/tell after eating, for polite dinner conversation/entertainment?

What story/stories it depicts and why?

Sorry if I am leading - as I said I've had years to ponder over this thing, and in all these generations all our family have pondered and discussed these matters out of interest - each having their own ideas, those above of mine are a distillation of all the offerings from our family over 4 or 5 generations now.

If it is of clue - My Grandmother (2nd generation to have the horn after it became known by the hunting horn having broken on the hearth) came out from England in 1901 (aged about 12 years) to Aussie land. Back in England as a girl growing up she lived in a small village out of London called "Caterham". I presume her Grandmother & thus the Manor House in which the hunting horn hung to have come from somewhere in that vicinity! From where the hunting horn in which it was secreted originated, I have no idea.

It could be middle European, I have no idea - it's just that to me at least so many of the characters seem to be english, perhaps historic peoples prior to the battle of Hastings 1066 when the Normans took England and the rule by Anglo Saxons ceased?.

Perhap's it is a "pre norman" english history relic?

I welcome any and all suggestions, perhaps between us all - we can figure this thing out, finally!

Cheers.

 

[gollum]

How would St. George slaying a dragon or the Madonna be offensive to the Inquisition? They were subjects commonly painted during that time. Saint George is one of the most venerated PRIESTS in the Catholic Church!

If that is a Knight on that horse, it is the oddest one I have seen. It may be an Aboriginal interpretation of a Knight. Notice the paint/tattoo under his eye. Where's the armor? I promise you that it is from Australia.

I know you have had years to ponder it, but it is what it is. The character on the bottom right carrying the scales is standing on what looks like an Abo Crocodile.

Mike

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Gollum, (Mike)

A good call - but the known history of the piece precludes it, it was brought out to Australia from England in 1901 by my then 12 year old grand mother.

Since when it arrived I can assure you that none of my Gradparents, parents, or I, have ever used it as a story telling aid to educate our first nations people!.

I knew my Grandmother well until she dies maybe 25 years ago. She was brought up to be pretty racist, and openly stated that she thought all black people were "dirty" (it was a common thing in less politically correct times of the early 1900's here & England).

My grandmother would no more have used this piece to educate an aboriginal of european history - than you would fly to the moon! I felt her just "shudder" at the idea - in her grave! My Grandmother would have crossed the street to walk past a colored person, she wouldn't hop on the same bus f there was a colored person on board!

She was no evangelising English lady....

Like I said - the history of the piece in Australia is all known to me...

Its the origin within England or Europe I'm interested in.

I think thru family history I can trace back its history to about I think mid 1800's when it came into my familys posession after the breaking of the hunting horn on the hearth incident.

Don't be disappointed tho....I've a collection of Australian Aboriginal Petroglyphs (Rock carvings that even our museum would DIE to get their hands on!

I'm planning to start a thread on those, who knows - they too could be clues to a hidden ancient treasure - who knows, BUT - there is a REAL cultural sensitivity problem in displaying the images publicly!. Some contain men's rituals that are forbidden under the Aboriginal cultural law for women to see and likewise their are some from a female initiation ceremonial site (containing birthing imagery) that Males are prohibited from viewing!

Only recently - Your US talk show host Ellen Degeneres - had to make an apology on air to Australia's Aboriginals for offending their cultural sensitivity, by trying to play a ceremonial Australian Aboriginal didgeridoo on stage during her show.

Culturally with the Aboriginals - it's a spearing in the leg offense for a female to play a didgeridoo.

The Aboriginals here - being only a couple generations from the stone age since the late 1700's - still have their "witch doctors" (Called the "Kadaicha man" or "feather foot") - who can literally "point the bone" and "sing a person to death" - remotely if necessary.

Google it - you'll find I'm telling the honest to goodness truth. There are some things even after 240 years here - we Europeans don't mess with, when it comes to our Australian Aboriginal people. We have learned to just accept some of the things they can do that defy explanation.

Anyway - I'm straying from the horn topic. I'll post a separate thread about the Aboriginal Petroglyphs. There's some weird (amazing?) and kinda masonic symbolic type imagery, contained within the Aboriginal carvings! Some of it is all about the animals they hunt / spear and eat, but some's just plain "weird".

Them is some crazy azz-ed dudes as you will see, providing your game to look, and they don't point the bone and sing me to death for posting the photo's.

Gollum Mike - sorry but the piece originates in England - I can attest historically to its presence since it arrived here in 1901 in my family - theres no "Australian native" connection - thats an area in which I am an expert - as you'll soon see when I start the thread about Aboriginal petroglyphs, I am probably one of the 3 most knowledgeable people in the world about dating rock "art" petroglyphs (Aboriginal and those later from our dutch and English maritime history)...

But that's a different subject - I hope you'll join in that thread if you have an interest in Australian Aboriginal history, Its an area i can address with some authority, more so than this piece.

Heres one just to temp you - its a dingo or thylacine most likely!

There sure is "some" resemblance between the devil dog on the Bone Carving & the Aboriginal petroglyph - so your assumption is very understandable.

Were i not so sure of the history of the bone carving since it's arrival IN Oz in 1901, i could sympathize with your view. I appreciate your opinion, all the same - I'm not arguing with you for the point of it or to defend my story - just correcting you from what i do know of the history as fact.

My 77 year old mother is still alive - if necessary I could get her to join and post to attest to the history of the bone carving in Australia since it arrived in 1901 with my Grandother from Caterham in England. My Grandfather also emigrated from England, in 1900.

This party of our family history is well known and recorded.

Without the known history - your guess is as valid as anyone else's, so please don't be discouraged and please keep contributing.

Cheers!

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Help me out please.

Which is the most appropriate section to commence a thread about ancient Australian Aboriginal Rock Carvings/Engravings Petroglyphs such as the Dingo/ Thylacine one above?

Cheers

 

[DCMatt]

Help me out please.

Which is the most appropriate section to commence a thread about ancient Australian Aboriginal Rock Carvings/Engravings Petroglyphs such as the Dingo/ Thylacine one above?

Cheers

I'd put it in the "Everything Else" forum as it doesn't really fit anywhere else. If there is a better place, the moderators will move it or have you move it.

DCMatt

 

[Bramblefind]

Do you have the name of the family whose manor house it came from?

Maybe this piece came to them from outside England - i.e. America?... through travel or trade.

It's really an amazing thing!

 

[Bramblefind]

Do you think there could be more than one artist?

 

[GopherDaGold]

One eyed 'king', another figure, possibly royalty, with a sword over head...

I'm probably wrong on this but I feel everyone is romanticizing this horn more than it needs to be.
I think it is just a hodge-podge of carvings on a cow horn, some of which include what you see on standard playing cards. It's a sweet horn no doubt but I don't think it means anything significant.

 

[DCMatt]

A few observations about the images on the horn:

The seven headed beast transitions right to left from a serpent head to a human head. The mostly human head in the center appears to breathe smoke. I don't believe this is the beast from Revelations as the "wh0re" is not riding upon it.

The queen holding the child is definitely breastfeeding. She is pushing her breast towards the child with her hand. I'm not convinced the child is female as infants up until the early 20th C. were dressed the same regardless of gender.

I think the figure next to the queen is a king.

I agree with the "sword of Damocles" theory.

The staff in the "Pope's" hand is a simple crozier or pastoral staff.

What is the image above and behind the knight's head?

DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

One more quick note:

Still the "question"...remains, why was it secreted away inside a hunting horn?...

It is just a likely that the two "horn items" were put together before auction/sale. The smaller one may have accidentally slipped inside the larger one and was not or could not be removed. The buyer may not have been aware it was lodged inside.

Not as intriguing, but just as possible as being secreted away...

DCMatt

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Great comments guys. Thanks heaps.

I am sorry that i do not know the name of the family for whom my great great grandmother worked in England nor even where the home was located (Except that logically speaking it couldn't likely have been very far from my Grandmothers home town of Caterham?).

Man the one that jumps out at me is the comment about "characters from a deck of cards".

Could this have had something to do with the tarot?... a pre cursor to the tarot card system, and later our playing cards characters?

You have to admit there's a uncanny resemblance of the King Queen Jack & Joker playing card images even?

I would not at all preclude the idea, that the child is being breast fed, nor that it may be a male child. This seems a perfectly valid comment to me.

I've yet to get to making my petroglyphs posting i have another pressing task to complete first thats time dependent.

Apologies - I'll get to it maybe in a few days time (Job Application that closes Saturday and has to be in tomorrows post)!

Cheers

 

[DCMatt]

Man the one that jumps out at me is the comment about "characters from a deck of cards".

Too soon to say for sure but I think this item will tell a folklore story when we begin to figure it out. The multi-headed beast (dragon/serpent/leopard/whatever) is a common theme in folklore and mythology around the world. As you suggested earlier, it could a sort of picture book to supplement the oral tradition. Still researching...

DCMatt

 

[stefen]

Time to involve the History Detectives...