huntsman53
Gold Member
It may just be me and my feelings on this but isn't such a caricature a defamation of character or come so close, that it could and should be scrutinized by all?
Frank
Cannons from the Mercedes
- Thread starter Smithbrown
- Start date
It may just be me and my feelings on this but isn't such a caricature a defamation of character or come so close, that it could and should be scrutinized by all?
Frank
You can, but you can also go to the website that the information is from. Aside from that, I dont really see anyone coming to Stemm's defense, or can really disagree with the articles.
The areas in South America were not Countrys at the time, they masses of land that several countries claimed as colonies, just as in North America.
The whole cry of the ownership of artifacts has been well tested. Exactly who would you turn them over to, the Aztec Empire? You want to try to prove a geographical location and ownership of the silver and gold found on the Spanish vessels? The gold,silver, and artifacts were on Spanish vessels from Spanish colonies.
Treasure hunters want to claim and sell the artifacts instead of Spain? I dont see any of the treasure hunters in Florida complaining and turning the artifacts over to the South Americans instead of selling them off. What if Colombia (oh wait that is a lawsuit), or Peru starts claiming ownership, or Mexico?
Since the posters here, and the treasure hunters are adamate that Spain cannot claim the property, as it was stolen and enslaved from South Americans, instead of selling the artifacts they find in Florida, will they turn them back over to Peru, Mexico, or the Aztecs?
Exactly what is the point that is trying to be made here?
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huntsman53
Gold Member
While all land/territories in North, South and Central America may not have been countries, they were the lands/territories of the Native American Indians and not undiscovered lands/colonies of Spain or any other Country. While it is appalling what the settlers did to the Native American Indians here in seeking new lands to settle and for gain to find Gold and Silver as well as slaughtering many wildlife for their' fur as well, what Spain did to Native American Indians in all of the Americas is more appalling. They committed Genocide all in the search for Gold, Silver, Gems, land and power and to force their faith on another race/society that in all generalities, did not want forced on them. Also, the diseases they brought with them, killed millions of Native American Indians and made these peoples more easy to conquer. Now, with these things in mind, do you really and truly believe that Spain deserves the spoils of the genocide they committed and which are the same spoils they have left abandoned on the ocean's floors for some 200 to 500 years?
Treasure Salvors deserve something for the time, research, funds they spend as well as the wear and tear on equipment that the expend to bring these treasures and artifacts back to the surface and where they can be viewed and enjoyed by the people of the world instead of lying on or under the ocean's floors and degrading more and more with each and every day. Maybe a fund could be established through the cooperation of the governments, courts and peoples of the world to donate a portion of the funds generated from the sell and viewing of these finds to help the poor peoples as well the remaining indigenous peoples of this world.
Frank
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Tom_Restorer
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eddited
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How dare you criticize Germany for starting two World Wars and committing the Holocaust !!
After all, what was the American response ?
We actually BOMBED and INVADED Germany and killed a lot of their people !!
Then we had the audacity to rebuild their economy and pay for their defense for the next 72+ years (still ongoing) !!
And we did exactly the same thing to the Empire of Japan !!
The Outrage !!
And then we built a lot of nuclear weapons in response to the global threat of the Soviet Union !!
Scandalous !!
And then we invaded Afghanistan in a (successful) attempt to dismember Al-Qaeda !!
The Horror !!
And then we invaded Iraq in order to remove a really great guy like Saddam Hussein !!
Monstrous !!
How dare Americans suggest their history gives them a bit of moral high ground to stand on ??
Tom_Restorer
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editted
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wow !!!!
Tom_Restorer
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LOL Popcorn .... ROFL
Best reply EVER!! I still pmsl :-)
Best reply EVER!! I still pmsl :-)
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huntsman53
Gold Member
Tom and hobbit...
I did not wish to start a debate and/or argument about who did what to certain peoples/races and should have been more sensitive to Treasure Net members around the world! I chose to use WWII and the Holocaust because it is what most people can relate to but meant no disrespect to you or the German people and as you can see, I did not mention the German people, although it would likely be inferred by most folks reading the post. I was stationed in Germany (the former West Germany) from April 1973 to August 1977 with the U.S. Army in Kirch-Göns (Kirch-Goens) and Giessen and if it were not for getting orders to transfer, I would have stayed as long as possible. I was married to a German Frau from Lich where Licher Bier is brewed for thirty two and a half years. Her Grandfather (Großvater), Eugen Keller hid out on the roof tops of Stadt Lich for three days to keep from being inducted into the Nazi Program and they punished him when he had to serve by sending him to the Eastern Front where he and all of the German prisoners came close to being massacred by the Russians but were saved by an Allied Battalion. I deeply respect the German people as they are a hard working and honorable people and I have and will defend them with vigor. I am sorry, I will edit my post if possible and hope that others will do the same.
Respectfully...Frank
I did not wish to start a debate and/or argument about who did what to certain peoples/races and should have been more sensitive to Treasure Net members around the world! I chose to use WWII and the Holocaust because it is what most people can relate to but meant no disrespect to you or the German people and as you can see, I did not mention the German people, although it would likely be inferred by most folks reading the post. I was stationed in Germany (the former West Germany) from April 1973 to August 1977 with the U.S. Army in Kirch-Göns (Kirch-Goens) and Giessen and if it were not for getting orders to transfer, I would have stayed as long as possible. I was married to a German Frau from Lich where Licher Bier is brewed for thirty two and a half years. Her Grandfather (Großvater), Eugen Keller hid out on the roof tops of Stadt Lich for three days to keep from being inducted into the Nazi Program and they punished him when he had to serve by sending him to the Eastern Front where he and all of the German prisoners came close to being massacred by the Russians but were saved by an Allied Battalion. I deeply respect the German people as they are a hard working and honorable people and I have and will defend them with vigor. I am sorry, I will edit my post if possible and hope that others will do the same.
Respectfully...Frank
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Salvor6
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Hey Frank and Tom, this thread is about the cannons of the Mercedes. Please start another thread about who did what and don't pollute this thread about cannons. I am from German heritage too and I have dozens of relatives in Hamburg and Augsburg.
huntsman53
Gold Member
Pete... Why wasn't seekerGH included as I believe he is the one that started all of this damn debate??!!
Frank
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Tom_Restorer
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No problem Frank! Forget it!
It just hurts if you get confronted EVERY SINLGE DAY with this and every bad thing in the world gets compared to it.
Anyway, forget it Bro! Back to topic now :-)
Sorry, what was the topic ?? ..... :-)
It just hurts if you get confronted EVERY SINLGE DAY with this and every bad thing in the world gets compared to it.
Anyway, forget it Bro! Back to topic now :-)
Sorry, what was the topic ?? ..... :-)
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Tom_Restorer
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Correct! I delete my replies and Frank will eddit his too! Sorry !
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Please leave the moderation of the forums to the admins and mods.
Vox veritas
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MiddenMonster
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Just saw this thread since it resurfaced today, and have a question regarding terminology. I was under the impression that the terms "cannon" and "cannon balls" are used for land forces, and the terms "guns" and "shot" are used for naval forces. Is this not correct?
xaos
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Technically, it is Naval Artillery. (vs land based Field Artillery)
Cannon and gun are interchangeable terms. (Cannon is from the Chinese word for Cane....soooo...)
Shot is usually reserved for grape-shot or chain shot.
Artillery size went from a cannon ball of certain weight, to a diameter.
The "Howitzer" (a cannon with a barrel at least 25 times longer than bore diameter) began in the early 1400's, and has seen ammunition ranging from 25 pound to 18 pound to 4.5 inch to 105mm....
Cannon and gun are interchangeable terms. (Cannon is from the Chinese word for Cane....soooo...)
Shot is usually reserved for grape-shot or chain shot.
Artillery size went from a cannon ball of certain weight, to a diameter.
The "Howitzer" (a cannon with a barrel at least 25 times longer than bore diameter) began in the early 1400's, and has seen ammunition ranging from 25 pound to 18 pound to 4.5 inch to 105mm....
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Smithbrown
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No Middenmoster, that is not correct. Both land and sea forces use the same words.
But Xaos has some strange ideas- Shot is also used for Round shot- the solid ball.
Weirdly Howitzer is used to described short guns with a very short length to calibre ratio - not long guns- and is not that old a term two- three hundred years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer Perhaps Xaos was confusing it with Bombard, or Perrier.
Now most of my work is from British sources 1500 t0 1850, perhaps US use words differently. Or translations are poor.
But Xaos has some strange ideas- Shot is also used for Round shot- the solid ball.
Weirdly Howitzer is used to described short guns with a very short length to calibre ratio - not long guns- and is not that old a term two- three hundred years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer Perhaps Xaos was confusing it with Bombard, or Perrier.
Now most of my work is from British sources 1500 t0 1850, perhaps US use words differently. Or translations are poor.
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