Can anyone help with identifying etchings found in a cave in Middle Tennessee?

[huntsman53]

This seems like a lot of work just to scratch some symbols on it when they could have done the same on the walls, don't you think?
My mind wanders to what's inside the mud block? Is it solid mud or just a blanket of mud hiding what you went in there for in the first place?
Just thinking out loud but it doesn't make sense and when it doesn't make sense, well, there is always a reason why.
That is of course, if you're convinced it's man made.
Without the right equipment you'll never know unless you do some exploratory drill holes with a camera..
Good Luck, it's very interesting for sure.

You would really have to explore this cave to understand why someone would make etchings on dried mud walls! Yes, there are rock walls but the ones that are away and not along the stream in the cave where someone would want to place their' etchings so not to be effected by constantly flowing or rising waters, are extremely short walls due to dried mud that has covered quite a bit of the floor of the cave. Also, most if not all of the walls that are far enough away from the stream and large of enough to make etchings on, are blocked by dried mud walls and mounds. So, what you have in much of the cave is a very low ceiling, not much in way of useable walls on which to etch some message on and the taller walls constantly effected by the water. As relayed to me by Brad, from the point that you crawl through the dugout portion of the mud wall and mounds (at about 50 yards) or crawl around the bend in the creek, you are pretty much crawling on your' hand and knees or belly through much of the rest of the cave. If I am correct in what Brad relayed to me, the only section that opens back up to where you can really duck waddle, is the area just before the small crack to crawl through with the closed-off tunnel on it's right. I am unsure as to the conditions of navigating the cave beyond this point!

Hopefully, you can understand in what I have wrote, that whoever left the etchings on the dried mud wall, probably had no other choice of where to carve them due to the geology and conditions as stated above and there must have been reasoning behind the location of where they made them.

Also, although it is possible that there is something hidden in or under the dried mud wall with the etchings, Brad is emphatic in that there will be no drilling, tearing down or moving them until it is ascertained as to whether they are Native American Indian etchings or not. If they are not, then that is a possibility after he has exhausted all attempts to document every single etching on the wall. It is quite possible that this dried mud wall was carved out and moved to this location or separated from the floor to hide something underneath it. This is possible as evidenced by some of the pictures, as you can somewhat clearly see that there is an actual seam between the dried mud wall and the mud floor that it sits on.


Frank

 

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[Limitool]

You would really have to explore this cave to understand why someone would make etchings on dried mud walls! Yes, there are rock walls but the ones that are away and not along the stream in the cave where someone would want to place their' etchings so not to be effected by constantly flowing or rising waters, are extremely short walls due to dried mud that has covered quite a bit of the floor of the cave. Also, most if not all of the walls that are far enough away from the stream and large of enough to make etchings on, are blocked by dried mud walls and mounds. So, what you have in much of the cave is a very low ceiling, not much in way of useable walls on which to etch some message on and the taller walls constantly effected by the water. As relayed to me by Brad, from the point that you crawl through the dugout portion of the mud wall and mounds (at about 50 yards) or crawl around the bend in the creek, you are pretty much crawling on your' hand and knees or belly through much of the rest of the cave. If I am correct in what Brad relayed to me, the only section that opens back up to where you can really duck waddle, is the area just before the small crack to crawl through with the closed-off tunnel on it's right. I am unsure as to the conditions of navigating the cave beyond this point!

Hopefully, you can understand in what I have wrote, that whoever left the etchings on the dried mud wall, probably had no other choice of where to carve them due to the geology and conditions as stated above and there must have been reasoning behind the location of where they made them.

Also, although it is possible that there is something hidden in or under the dried mud wall with the etchings, Brad is emphatic in that there will be no drilling, tearing down or moving them until it is ascertained as to whether they are Native American Indian etchings or not. If they are not, then that is a possibility after he has exhausted all attempts to document every single etching on the wall. It is quite possible that this dried mud wall was carved out and moved to this location or separated from the floor to hide something underneath it. This is possible as evidenced by some of the pictures, as you can somewhat clearly see that there is an actual seam between the dried mud wall and the mud floor that it sits on.


Frank

AMEM.... I'm almost 20 years late. We're about (hopefully) to find out from some qualified experts soon. Right on Frank....!!!!!

 

[Limitool]

My daughter and I are going back to the cave on Saturday morning. Hopefully the light and power source will allow this to be done without reflecting the humidity and giving us a better or different view of this mound.

 

[Rawhide]

It appears to be a map and measurements there. But there is some stuff missing to make it legit? Not saying its fake, just not enough info to say what it is for sure. I would look for other clues as you explore.

 

[Limitool]

It appears to be a map and measurements there. But there is some stuff missing to make it legit? Not saying its fake, just not enough info to say what it is for sure. I would look for other clues as you explore.

We will look for other clues as we explore "again" in more detail together. I can't wait to hear from Dr. Jan Simek from UT. what his opinion is... meaning is this just some doodling in the mud rather than ancient man or Indian markings or a "map" with further meanings. He is a leading authority on glyphs or mud/clay etching from 1000's of years ago. There is another etching I'm aware of deep within this cave. But this other one is not easy to reach at all. We may attempt to reach this other site again Saturday morning... maybe? Later... Brad

 

[Limitool]

Last Sunday I attempted and failed to better light up this mounds area to capture more of the faded carvings within. There's much more there if the lighting and camera angle's were correct. But this is not easy to do thus far in this environment. I thought I'd share a couple of close-up pics I took from a poor video we attempted then also. As I said there's more there but everything has to be perfect. I'd like to get opinions as to whether "I'm looking to hard" and seeing things or not. If you all could see in person you'd agree with me there's more there I believe. There are other mounds around also that I'm going to look closer at next time that are close to this one. I'm going to try again soon... Brad

Photo S6302643 are of 2 mounds to left of "etched mound" located in the background.

Close-up 1. Does this appear to be a faded symbol just to the right of the "R" figure? This is located on the far right side of the etched mound. Kind of looks like a pine tree or an arrow pointed upward?
Close-up 2. Does this appear to be a faded symbol just on left side of the large wavy line figure? This is on the far left side of etched mound. Appears to be a black circle with lines coming off North, South, East & West?

 

[Justintime]

Some thing I discovered recently was rock carvings that was made legible using candle light, one rock had four different messages on one rock, as you move the candle around the shadows shift, if the carvings was preflashlight, I would use candle power, goodluck. Justintime

 

[Limitool]

Some thing I discovered recently was rock carvings that was made legible using candle light, one rock had four different messages on one rock, as you move the candle around the shadows shift, if the carvings was preflashlight, I would use candle power, goodluck. Justintime

Thanks for advise.... Yea, that was suggested earlier and may still be tried. Maybe some other etchings or signs would become visible but getting them to photo correctly is hard. But its still an easy thing to do while I was back there and I'll try this. I'd like to try a black light also. There's just so MUCH MOISTURE. The camera lens gets foggy quickly also.

 

[billythekidder]

try looking at it as a place to go.

 

[charliejr]

It is a place to go. From the Face, follow the eye, down to the little man at the bottom. It shows you where to go, how to get there, and what to look for when you get there.

 

[Limitool]

try looking at it as a place to go. View attachment 831121

It is a place to go. From the Face, follow the eye, down to the little man at the bottom. It shows you where to go, how to get there, and what to look for when you get there.

Thanks guys.... This is what we're trying to learn and I need these opinions and thoughts. Frank ordered a topo map and had it sent but he just missed the area needed. He did get part of it which we did need though. I have ordered the other and we'll then have the entire area covered after putting them together. I ordered a hand held portable black-light yesterday which I hope will be here next week sometime. Hopefully we'll get a different look using it. Also... I'll try again to light up area with better lights to try and show a overview of entire area.... Brad

 

[Limitool]

Mileaway and Huntsman53 I now tend to agree with you both!!!!

This seems like a lot of work just to scratch some symbols on it when they could have done the same on the walls, don't you think?
My mind wanders to what's inside the mud block? Is it solid mud or just a blanket of mud hiding what you went in there for in the first place?
Just thinking out loud but it doesn't make sense and when it doesn't make sense, well, there is always a reason why.
That is of course, if you're convinced it's man made.
Without the right equipment you'll never know unless you do some exploratory drill holes with a camera..
Good Luck, it's very interesting for sure.

You would really have to explore this cave to understand why someone would make etchings on dried mud walls! Yes, there are rock walls but the ones that are away and not along the stream in the cave where someone would want to place their' etchings so not to be effected by constantly flowing or rising waters, are extremely short walls due to dried mud that has covered quite a bit of the floor of the cave. Also, most if not all of the walls that are far enough away from the stream and large of enough to make etchings on, are blocked by dried mud walls and mounds. So, what you have in much of the cave is a very low ceiling, not much in way of useable walls on which to etch some message on and the taller walls constantly effected by the water. As relayed to me by Brad, from the point that you crawl through the dugout portion of the mud wall and mounds (at about 50 yards) or crawl around the bend in the creek, you are pretty much crawling on your' hand and knees or belly through much of the rest of the cave. If I am correct in what Brad relayed to me, the only section that opens back up to where you can really duck waddle, is the area just before the small crack to crawl through with the closed-off tunnel on it's right. I am unsure as to the conditions of navigating the cave beyond this point!

Hopefully, you can understand in what I have wrote, that whoever left the etchings on the dried mud wall, probably had no other choice of where to carve them due to the geology and conditions as stated above and there must have been reasoning behind the location of where they made them.

Also, although it is possible that there is something hidden in or under the dried mud wall with the etchings, Brad is emphatic in that there will be no drilling, tearing down or moving them until it is ascertained as to whether they are Native American Indian etchings or not. If they are not, then that is a possibility after he has exhausted all attempts to document every single etching on the wall. It is quite possible that this dried mud wall was carved out and moved to this location or separated from the floor to hide something underneath it. This is possible as evidenced by some of the pictures, as you can somewhat clearly see that there is an actual seam between the dried mud wall and the mud floor that it sits on.


Frank

No word yet today from University of TN's Anthropology dept. personal concerning possible ancient etchings possibilities. I'm trying to do the right thing here 1st… but I'd like to go do MORE… now!

SO FAR… only 1 dirt/clay mound has apparent symbols etched into it and I have shared these photos. I do really need to look closer at the others though. Admittedly, I do know of another etching WAY BACK put into a mud wall which is not in the "mud mound format" as I've shown in front of cave. It is directly carved into a mud covered wall. And, this other etching is right across from the dead end mud tunnel entrance I've posted before. I believe the one across from the mud tunnel (if I remember right) had numbers also. This was 18-19 years ago and I didn't care then. Very hard to reach this area.

I'm now waiting on the other Topo map to arrive and a portable black light I ordered. I'll then buy different lighting to again attempt to photo / video this mound better and its surroundings.

Folks… I'd really like some opinions or intelligent thoughts on the following PLEASE asap. I admittedly don't know how to read "treasure signs or symbols" if any are there (I think there are). But some of these abnormalities around this etched mound and its surroundings really are apparent. There are 3 other mounds close by and none are "like" this mound. I am a true amateur… but "something" is here or around here because some of these mounds are not natural or nature created.

#1. The etched mound has stones and/or rocks on the surface around it in places… the other's have NONE (see photo Z3).

#2. This etched mound has a "trench" in front of it and around it for whatever reason… the others don't. The 2 mounds to the left don't and the 1 mound to the right doesn't. And some "around" the corner further back don't either, only this one. All other mounds have a "natural" curved base from mound into its base into the floor and its natural surroundings or NO trench (Review photos Z1 & Z7).

#3. The 2 mounds to the left of etched mound which is located in background appear to have been "carved into and/or shaped" somehow at some point (for whatever reason)… the one to the right of the etched mound and all others don't (See photo S6302643 - shows 2 mounds to left) (photo Z7 shows mound to right of etched mound way in background).

Now… am I right about the other mounds being different … absolutely. Now… what's the reasons for this I have no idea but it's obvious. How do mud mounds within a cave get flat surfaces, tops and ends?
As Frank stated awhile ago…. I do not want to harm this etched mound at all if it's historical (I'm waiting to hear). But I wonder still are these markers for graves (hopefully not). And then I wonder STILL and foremost if THE GROUND UNDER THE ETCHED MOUND HAS SETTLED BECAUSE THE GROUND BENEATH IT WAS DUG!!! Frank and I both wonder Frank called about this today and we discussed.

This would explain why this mound is different from the others. Frank has had his opinions & theory's on this mound and I've have mine. He totally agrees it's different and it works great talking about it between us. Until we know or learn the truth we're both right thus far (either way is cool). I've stated before my opinion during these conversations w/Frank this mound was possibly "hand built" or carved and moved to its location and since it was or did not get built naturally it didn't settle or get packed naturally into its location. So I'm thinking his lead to it cracking under its own weight on the left end because of a bad base…? Who knows. If there's treasure signs on mound I'm IN… and if the mounds split is part of it I’m IN!!!! This is Franks opinion and others also… so he's not alone at all. And I'm totally in with this scenario also. BUT it's not open to debate (Frank or I) this etched mound is different from the one's around. And this leads to the question…. why are these mounds here at all just after natural light at all?

I just wonder (not for long) what's under or within or around this mound or some of the others…
Thanks for any further input… Brad Contact… (Huntsman53 or Limitool)

FOOTNOTE: What would anyone think if you got an email from somebody with the last part of its address being ....TN.gov? Then stating be careful about telling others and "We'll send a much longer detailed email tomorrow morning".... Brad

 

[charliejr]

Yikes! What the heck did you do. Son, now listen, just do this stuff in the day time. That's when they were made and that's how they were meant to be seen and read.

 

[Limitool]

Yikes! What the heck did you do. Son, now listen, just do this stuff in the day time. That's when they were made and that's how they were meant to be seen and read.

Sir... Help me out please... I admit I am a total amateur... totally! Private Message if needed. Are you talking about the etched mud mound. If so... "What's the difference if I do this in the "day time". It's in a cave where natural light has just ended... there is NO NATURAL LIGHT around this etched mound. Do you mean do not use a black light to look for worn or faded etchings within mound? Like use candle light or a torch to examine mound. Or are you talking about something TOTALLY different. I admittedly am probably missing your point... (Sorry).... Brad

 

[Shortstack]

Those vertical lines on the end section sure look like a map of a system of creeks or watershed gullies, don't they? Have you compared the layout with a map of the area? That topo will tell you; when it arrives.

Old Dog advises to read a group of signs from left-to-right, so, I'd try to match those lines to a water system then orientate the other signs to it by checking their relative positions on the ground......looking for matching signs "out there".

It is POSSIBLE that this is a master map of the whole cache layout. Looks kinda like a KGC set up.......NOT saying it definitely IS, just that it sure resembles one.

 

[Limitool]

Those vertical lines on the end section sure look like a map of a system of creeks or watershed gullies, don't they? Have you compared the layout with a map of the area? That topo will tell you; when it arrives.

I got it yesterday but have not had time to put the 2 maps together and study.... both maps were needed because of the topo's map section's "border". Shortstack PM me and/or help me on what I'm missing here.

 

[Shortstack]

I am far from being any great bastion of knowledge on this subject. There are others who have actually been IN the field putting their footprints on the ground and have learned things the hard way. When they post some of that info, I read and study it in hopes of being a sounding board for their ideas. With my screwy eyesight, sometimes I can pick out things in their photos, too. Basically, I am an armchair adventurer who gets his pleasure when others share their knowledge. And I have proven my trustworthiness by holding confidences close to the chest. Some folks on this forum have trusted me with a little info and photos and I take great pride in knowing that I've kept their trust.

Now, for KGC knowledge, Charliejr has been investigating that and other things for quite a while. So has Texas Jay and Rebel KGC. Truckinbutch is another member who might be a good source of advice, too.

Not saying this is connected with the KGC, but, as I wrote above, it sure has that look.

If you can, get a copy of Bob Brewer's book, Rebel Gold and obsorb it. That will give you a very good place to start your research.

 

[huntsman53]

billythekidder, charliejr, Shortstack and others,

Imagine for a minute, if only for that allotted time, that myself and Brad are illiterate when it comes to etchings on mud mounds in caves or on anything for that matter. We both find some of your' postings cryptic and really need further information and leading to understand what you are saying! We both believe that the etchings are a map to something and how to get there but without the kind of knowledge all of you and others possess, we are totally lost and dumbfounded. Since we already know that too much information has already been shared and may have led to the other person or persons finding the cave (and I believe with help possibly from the Caving Society that Brad contacted earlier) and digging into some of the dried mud piles, we believe that further communication regarding deciphering the etchings should be done via PM's. I believe that you will agree that due to the circumstances, this would be best! We do not plan to shut everyone on TNnet out from this adventure, we just believe that certain details need to be kept under wraps per see. We plan to share much more information and as well as any finds with everyone here but within reason, if you understand what I mean. Therefore, both Brad and myself ask that if you or anyone else can help us on this quest, please do so in PM's. We are not asking you to keep everything off TNnet, just certain information that might aid someone else in circumventing our' quest.

We want to thank each and everyone of you for the helpful information, advice, ideas and comments! Whether you know it or not, we have read all of the posts and taken all of the information, advice, ideas and comments seriously even when some of it seems confusing to us.

As Brad stated, he will be leaving for Michigan tomorrow morning but will be back late this weekend. Until he gets back, you can PM me and I will forward the information on to Brad, so that he will have it when he gets back or you can PM both of us.


Frank

P.S. I will post a modified form of this posting in the original Thread in the "Today's Finds" forum!

 

[huntsman53]

I am far from being any great bastion of knowledge on this subject. There are others who have actually been IN the field putting their footprints on the ground and have learned things the hard way. When they post some of that info, I read and study it in hopes of being a sounding board for their ideas. With my screwy eyesight, sometimes I can pick out things in their photos, too. Basically, I am an armchair adventurer who gets his pleasure when others share their knowledge. And I have proven my trustworthiness by holding confidences close to the chest. Some folks on this forum have trusted me with a little info and photos and I take great pride in knowing that I've kept their trust.

Now, for KGC knowledge, Charliejr has been investigating that and other things for quite a while. So has Texas Jay and Rebel KGC. Truckinbutch is another member who might be a good source of advice, too.

Not saying this is connected with the KGC, but, as I wrote above, it sure has that look.

If you can, get a copy of Bob Brewer's book, Rebel Gold and obsorb it. That will give you a very good place to start your research.

Shortstack,

Thanks for the information and about Bob Brewer's book! I will probably snag a copy of the book off eBay and get to reading it. Is there any other books by well known Treasure Hunters that might be of help?


Frank

 

[Shortstack]

Huntsman53:
Don't pay too much for your copy of Brewer's book. There are some folks trying to get "collector" prices for it and it is rediculus. You can find it on Amazon and probably eBay, but don't pay over $20 to $25 for a softcover copy.