Can anyone date this bullet? I found it 5 feet down.

[Ant]

I found it down about 5 feet, near what I think was clay sewer pipes and red bricks. That’s right, five feet down in an excavated scrape .

 

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[dkw]

Without a caliper measurement I'll guess .45 caliber. A length and weight would help the ID. It has definitely been fired. The rifling imprint is obvious.

 

[cwdigger]

Without a caliper measurement I'll guess .45 caliber. A length and weight would help the ID. It has definitely been fired. The rifling imprint is obvious.

Agreed .45 if it were shot directly at the gound depending on the grains i would think it could easily go 5 feet

 

[junkdigger]

That is a jacketed bullet,so not likely to be much more than 100 years old. But 100 years is old!

 

[hasbeen]

From the photo ,the bullet appears to be a 230 FMJ .45 A.C.P. bullet.It could possibly be as old as 102 years but is probably no older than about 85 years at most.The .45 A.C.P.was not widely available to civilians until around 1920.

Penetration in undisturbed soil is unlikely to be more than 8" depending upon soil compisition and moisture content.I base this statement on my personal experience of recovering bullets fired into the ground.

Army tests of the .45A.C.P. showed penetration to be 26" in ballistic gelatin(no distance stated),8"of dry sand at 25 yards,6"of white pine at 25 yards,and 10 inches of wet foam at 25 yards.These tests were all conducted with the service load with a 230 gr. bullet.

hasbeen

 

[Montana Jim]

Without a caliper measurement I'll guess .45 caliber. A length and weight would help the ID. It has definitely been fired. The rifling imprint is obvious.

Agreed .45 if it were shot directly at the gound depending on the grains i would think it could easily go 5 feet

It's a low velocity bullet! No way it would go 5 feet. With a wide surface area like that it would only go 12 inches in mud - at most I think.

I agree with hasbeen!

 

[Monty]

No .45 caliber handgun bullet known to man will penetrate 5 feet into the ground! It probably fell into an open hole and was covered up at some time. I agree, 230 gr. FMJ .45 ACP. Commonly called "ball" ammo and was used by the U.S. Military as a standard projectile since before WWI up until replaced by the 9mm in recent years. Monty

 

[dkw]

That is a jacketed bullet,so not likely to be much more than 100 years old. But 100 years is old!

OK, I guess I'm going blind. It looks like a standard lead round nose bullet to me. I'm failing to see the jacketing.

I'm also not sure about the 45 ACP. I load and shoot in the neighborhood of 5000 rounds of 45 ACP a year. The bullet pictured has what appears to be a crimping groove. Since a 45 ACP headspaces on the mouth of the case the bullets for it don't need a crimping groove. Bullets with crimping grooves are usually intended for cartridges that headspace on the shoulder or rim.

Again, A weight and length would help a positive ID.

 

[dkw]

Here's one more thing that makes me think it's not a 45acp bullet. It looks too long. I looked up the original specs for the 45acp and they show the acceptable bullet length being from .657 to .667. That would make the bullet about half again as long as the diameter. The bullet pictured looks to be around twice as long as it's diameter.

 

[DigEmAll]

It's more likely a .38 caliber. Look at the measuring tape. It is 3/8 inch across which equates to .375 inch or .38 caliber. But then again, without calipers it could also be a .41 magnum round. I say .38 because that is far more common than a .41.

A .45 is about 29/64... which is just over 7/16, as can be measured in the picture. This round falls short of that measurement.

To see the jacket look at the base of the bullet. You can clearly see the jacket.

Most likely buried when the pipes were put in.

 

[dkw]

It's .38 caliber. Look at the measuring tape. It is 3/8 inch across which equates to .38.

To see the jacket look at the base of the bullet. You can clearly see the jacket.

DigEmAll, You may be right. I still can't see the jacket though. All I notice is a recessed base.

3/8" is .375 which is the correct bullet diameter for the 38-55 rifle cartridge. Without accurate measurements I'd be willing to accept that possibility.

Hey Ant, We need some more info. Jacketed or not? length? weight(grams or grains)?

 

[hasbeen]

I believe we jumped the gun assuming it to be a .45 A.C.P. bullet. Careful examination of the picture of the bullet on the tape measure shows it to be a bit less than 7/16 (.4375") in diameter.

The bullet is slightly less than twice as long as it's diameter.

Scaling the bullet with the tape measure,I find it's diameter to be .406",very close to a .41 Magnum.I do not however believe it is a .41 Mag.I have never seen a .41 Mag. bullet of that style.

A .401WSL rifle however was loaded with a similar style 240 grain round nose bullet.
The double groove on the bullet is similar to a .401 WSL..401WSL ball was loaded for the French government during WW1,it was used as a trench gun.

Several other .40 caliber rifles used a bullet of approximately the same diameter but most used a longer heavier bullet.

Most auto parts stores would be able to measure it for you..Pawn shops or a jeweller may be able to weigh it.

If it is a .401WSL bullet,it was probably made between 1910 and the late 1940s.

hasbeen

 

[Monty]

I wasn't meaning to say it was a .45 ACP, but just saying if it was..... Some .45 ACPs could be crimped if being fired in a revolver with half or full moon clips. A lot more information than you probably wanted to know. I can see the jacket by looking at the base of the bullet, the smaller round different colored patch is exposed lead. Also there are no grease grooves. A solid lead bullet would ordinarily have grease grooves to prevent severe leading of the barrel. A .38 Caliber bullet is actually a .357" jacketed or possibly a .358" diameter bullet if solid lead. I think the old .38 S&W short cartridge used a .358" bullet. Anomolies in bullet diameter are not unusual, IE: the .44 Magnum is actually a .429" bullet. You'd have to take the measurement with calipers to be sure, take the measure ment from abut 4 different places and then average. But, it's a good find anyway and it may not be that important just exactly what caliber the bullet is. Monty

 

[Ant]

I know it didn’t get fired and penetrate down than deep, I’m an old infantryman. This site is more that 100 years old and has been built over more that a couple of times.

Sorry, here’s the detailed information that was asked for. I used my inside micrometer because my dial calibers are with the Mac Tuck salesmen getting calibrated.

It miced in at .425” wide, weight is 16.5 g, it’s not a jacketed bullet and the rifling has 5 lands and groves without a twist.

HH

PS
Know anything about the one ring bullet?

 

[Old Dog]

Ant,
Some of the 45/70 and 45/90 ammo was easily used in the 100+ years ago time scape.

But even these heavy rounds would not go 5' deep in any soil. I think you may have found an area where flood water carried in some silt and buried it deeper.

OD

 

[Ant]

I'm saying that it was fired, and then built over, that’s how it got that deep. I know a bullet like that can only go in a few inches when fired in the ground. Furthermore, I've fired ten thousands of rounds in my life and anyone can tell by its condition it was not fired in the ground.

HH

 

[Monty]

Dang! The bullet looks completely different in the new photos! So, I can now see it has no jacket, so sorry about the jacket info. Hmmmm, .425 " huh? Well, there was a .41 Colt Rimfire and also a .44 Colt centerfire, both were pistol rounds and either would have a crimping groove. What is throwing me is the lack of a grease groove.There was also a .44 rimfire (Winchester I think?) made for the old original Henry lever action repeaters. Anyone got the book, "Cartridges of the World"? Any of them and all of them would be of the civil war era if my memory serves me correctly. I think because of the civil war and during the civil war a lot of progress was made in cartridges, going from the muzzle loading rifles and cap and ball pistols to metalic cartridges. The same thing happens during any of the wars to my knowledge. Montye

 

[dkw]

It miced in at .425” wide, weight is 16.5 g, it’s not a jacketed bullet and the rifling has 5 lands and groves without a twist.

.425, That is close to a .44-40(44WCF) bullet at .426-.427. 16.5 grams would be right about 255 grains. The only problem is that I don't think there was ever a 255 grain 44-40 load. I could be wrong about that though.

The 10.75 X 68 Mauser, .404 Jeffrey, .425 Express, .425 Westley Richards all use similar diameter projectiles but nothing that light that I could find mentioned.

BTW, I can see the twist to the rifling. It appears to be a right hand twist.

 

[Ant]

Thanks Monty

.425, That is close to a .44-40(44WCF) bullet at .426-.427. 16.5 grams would be right about 255 grains. The only problem is that I don't think there was ever a 255 grain 44-40 load. I could be wrong about that though.

The 10.75 X 68 Mauser, .404 Jeffrey, .425 Express, .425 Westley Richards all use similar diameter projectiles but nothing that light that I could find mentioned.

BTW, I can see the twist to the rifling. It appears to be a right hand twist.

I noticed the twist in the marco photo too, but it can't be seen under my 10X powered loop, my eyes are 51 years old, . Thanks for responding and pointing that out. I also rounded the size down, but as you can see, it really miced to .431".



HH

I noticed the twist in the marco photo too, but it can't be seen under my 10X powered loop, my eyes are 51 years old, . Thanks for responding and pointing that out. I also rounded the size down, but as you can see, it really miced to .431".



HH

 

[dkw]

I also rounded the size down, but as you can see, it really miced to .431".
HH

Actually, I never even looked at the measurements. I see it now that I look. .431 opens up a whole other can of worms. That puts it right in line for many of the 44 caliber cartridges. Here's a link with some bullet sizes. It's not all inclusive but it's a start.

http://www.gunsworld.com/reload/cart_pis_us.html