✅ SOLVED Butterfield find in AZ - What is it?

[Daugela]

Hi guys - first post.

Been metal detecting the Overland/Butterfield route that travels up from Maricopa, AZ to Gila Bend, AZ. The stretch I'm interested in is the area just south of Rainbow Valley which is southwest of Phoenix. Seems like it's unchartered territory. There's never people there... I found this item about 6 inches deep on the route. I have no clue what it is. Several people say it looks like the part that screws on the top of a gunpowder flask? Any thoughts?

 

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[kuger]

Its the top portion of a oil lamp.Lard or Whale Oil.Two cotton wicks would protrude through the holes

This one is unlikly exactly like your vessel,but you can see the cap
On the Water - Whale Oil Lamp

another
http://www.thelampworks.com/lw_hugh.htm
Very common in pre 1860 sites

 

[Terry Soloman]

Its the top portion of a oil lamp.Lard or Whale Oil.Two cotton wicks would protrude through the holes

This one is unlikly exactly like your vessel,but you can see the cap
On the Water - Whale Oil Lamp

another
Reproduction Lamp Burners - The Lampworks
Very common in pre 1860 sites

Wow! How good are the folks here?! Great ID!

 

[Gunrunner61]

Kruger......You Da Man!!!!!!.................

 

[Daugela]

Its the top portion of a oil lamp.Lard or Whale Oil.Two cotton wicks would protrude through the holes

This one is unlikly exactly like your vessel,but you can see the cap
On the Water - Whale Oil Lamp

another
Reproduction Lamp Burners - The Lampworks
Very common in pre 1860 sites

WOW!!! I've been asking everyone for several months now with NO definitive answer. That's great - pic and all.

 

[kuger]

Thanks guys.We find a lot of em!!

 

[Gork]

Hi guys - first post.

Been metal detecting the Overland/Butterfield route that travels up from Maricopa, AZ to Gila Bend, AZ. The stretch I'm interested in is the area just south of Rainbow Valley which is southwest of Phoenix. Seems like it's unchartered territory. There's never people there... I found this item about 6 inches deep on the route. I have no clue what it is. Several people say it looks like the part that screws on the top of a gunpowder flask? Any thoughts?

View attachment 652392

View attachment 652393

I realize there are a lot of good people on the Treasurenet and there is nothing wrong with the hobby if they stay within the laws.

The Forty Mile Desert south of Phoenix is a particularly sensitive area. If you start in the eastern section, you are on the sovereign Pima-Maricopa Nation property. This is now marked by signs which state very heavy penalties for trespassing without permission on their ground. Next you have a stretch of private property owned by individuals and you must have their permission to search their property. Then you have a highly protected section that is the Sonoran Desert National Monument which goes through Butterfield (Pima) Pass. This area is patrolled by the BLM, sometimes on horseback. There is even a private person or two who watch the area. On the western end, where the trail can still be traced before it disappears into plowed land, is State land. There are very strict laws governing the removal of artifacts on Federal and State ground. The 1979 archaeology act should be studied by all concerning the removal of artifacts. These laws come with very heavy penalties. There are similar laws for State ground. There is a separate law for Indian sites that is equally strict.
I am a citizen of the United States, and Federal Land is owned by me and all other citizens. Taxpayers have hired the BLM to administer our land. There are some disagreements about the rules, as there will always be in more or less terms.
How do I view our collective rights? My interest for forty-three years has been researching our history and presenting it to the public. The attitudes and rules over the past fifty years have evolved concerning this subject, as have my attitude evolved. My interest has been the history of the Butterfield Overland Trail in Arizona. One of the best preserved sections is across the Forty Mile Desert from Maricopa Wells (on the Pima-Maricopa Nation's sovereign ground) to what was the Gila Ranch Stage Station. There are a number of individuals and organizations continually researching the history of this historic trail which includes following the well defined tracks in the Forty Mile Desert. Part of our understanding of this historic period, is through studying the artifacts. Although many of these appear to be randomly lost, they can tell us about life along the trail. There in situ situation is important and should be left in situ.
All of us must ask ourselves these questions.
Of what value is an artifact that is picked up along the trail to the individual that does this? Let's say the artifact shown has a value of $5 to a collector (although this is given for the explanation, the artifact shown has no value to a collector), what will the difference be in your life that $5 will make one year from now. The answer is: None! The next question to be asked is: What has been lost?
The answer is that another clue has been lost about our history for those that are putting this puzzle together. I could go into an explanation of why the artifact should have been left in situ because of its relationship to other points I have learned about this subject.
The comment stated by Daugela that "There's never people there..." indicates there may be an attitude about the laws. Again, there is nothing wrong with the hobby if it is done legally, but if individuals think the Forty Mile Desert "has no eyes," they are mistaken and it comes with very heavy penalties.

 

[mamabear]

here is a pic of whale oil lamps. I never realized they were so like kerosene lamps

 

[kuger]

..............point taken Gork..but as to your statement that the item above has no value to a collector?You are mistaken,that piece does bring more than $5,especially if the cone spouts are intact.Monetary value should not be what drives one's efforts but just sayin'......

 

[Gork]

..............point taken Gork..but as to your statement that the item above has no value to a collector?You are mistaken,that piece does bring more than $5,especially if the cone spouts are intact.Monetary value should not be what drives one's efforts but just sayin'......

In the order of things $5 isn't even the price of a beer, like I said it will have no meaning in a persons life a year from now---that is the point compared to its value of it being left in place.

 

[kuger]

In the order of things $5 isn't even the price of a beer, like I said it will have no meaning in a persons life a year from now---that is the point compared to its value of it being left in place.

..................to some.............

 

[Daugela]

In the order of things $5 isn't even the price of a beer, like I said it will have no meaning in a persons life a year from now---that is the point compared to its value of it being left in place.

Apparently I didn't subscribe to this thread, therefore, never read the subsequent posts.

Regarding what Gork said, point well taken. Having been to the area over the past 20 years, truly, I haven't seen that many people other than the occasional Jeep enthusiast.

I'll be completely honest, I never gave it any thought that metal detecting in the middle of the desert as to what I think is the Butterfield trail was illegal. Yes, it was on BLM land, but again, being new to the hobby, I just didn't think twice.

Having been told of this information, I'm certainly going to research the legality of where I hunt, even if it's out in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for the info Gork.

 

[Gork]

Apparently I didn't subscribe to this thread, therefore, never read the subsequent posts.

Regarding what Gork said, point well taken. Having been to the area over the past 20 years, truly, I haven't seen that many people other than the occasional Jeep enthusiast.

I'll be completely honest, I never gave it any thought that metal detecting in the middle of the desert as to what I think is the Butterfield trail was illegal. Yes, it was on BLM land, but again, being new to the hobby, I just didn't think twice.

Having been told of this information, I'm certainly going to research the legality of where I hunt, even if it's out in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for the info Gork.

Bravo for you Dougela. I have nothing against the treasure hunting hobby when done legally. I have always said that most on this site are honest people and only sometimes need a little prompting to do what's right unlike the previous comment by Kuger who stated "to some" about the rights and wrongs.
I have just returned from a two month speaking tour in Arizona concerning my new book giving talks to historical organizations and clubs.
Again, thanks, as you are an asset to this site.

 

[kuger]

Bravo for you Dougela. I have nothing against the treasure hunting hobby when done legally. I have always said that most on this site are honest people and only sometimes need a little prompting to do what's right unlike the previous comment by Kuger who stated "to some" about the rights and wrongs.
I have just returned from a two month speaking tour in Arizona concerning my new book giving talks to historical organizations and clubs.
Again, thanks, as you are an asset to this site.

Hey Gork,seeins how you didnt even likely know what the piece was,I am sure it didnt,or wouldnt have blew your whole study.You seem to be benefiting financially from this,I dont,from any of my detecting.You dont know squat about me,or what I do,My comment was about your Statement that to most that piece didnt mean anything.....to "some"....meaning folks like me,it does mean something....enough that I KNEW WHAT IT WAS!!!!IUnlike you or one of your Archi friends(who likely has bigger collections than any of us on here) so dont get on here and trash my name.Look in the mirror!!!

 

[Gork]

Hey Gork,seeins how you didnt even likely know what the piece was,I am sure it didnt,or wouldnt have blew your whole study.You seem to be benefiting financially from this,I dont,from any of my detecting.You dont know squat about me,or what I do,My comment was about your Statement that to most that piece didnt mean anything.....to "some"....meaning folks like me,it does mean something....enough that I KNEW WHAT IT WAS!!!!IUnlike you or one of your Archi friends(who likely has bigger collections than any of us on here) so dont get on here and trash my name.Look in the mirror!!!

I wasn't even going to reply to this since it didn't even seem worth it, because I know I will just get another irrational comment. But what the heck!
It seems your statement is sour grapes as anyone can see by reading the line you pulled out of my comment that you answered "to some." It states nothing of what you are complaining about. The statement ended with "....compared to the value of leaving it in place." Nowhere in my statement did I say "that to most that piece didn't mean anything." Those are just your made up words as anyone can see by reading the previous messages. As you can see by the statement you commented to that "....in a person's life it will have no meaning a year from now..." applies to the $5 that a person would have gained in comparison to the knowledge that would have been gained if left in place. That is what you tried to twist around. Sorry---quotes are quotes, make sure you get them right.

 

[kuger]

Talk about irrational!!!Did you not pick my comment out,and try to make it into,"me as doing the wrong thing"?What would this item tell you for your book?So,by my ID of this item,and my statement that this item was not worthless,where did I give such bad,evil,and horrible info?Your right quotes dont lie,nor does the trail of benefit.....which you are financially...I just offer assistance to people who ask a question.I think I know exactly who has "sour grapes",and it goes back to a photo you posted,that I still say was "not truthful".........your book outta be a great one,cause I can read you like one!!!

 

[Gork]

Talk about irrational!!!Did you not pick my comment out,and try to make it into,"me as doing the wrong thing"?What would this item tell you for your book.So,by my ID of this item,and my statement that this item was not worthless,where did I give such bad,evil,and horrible info?Your right quotes dont lie,nor does the trail of benefit.....which you are financially...I just offer assistance to people who ask a question.I think I know exactly who has "sour grapes",and it goes back to a photo you posted,that I still say was "not truthful".........your book outta be a great one,cause I can read you like one!!!

Huh!!!!!!

 

[surf]

...
I am a citizen of the United States, and Federal Land is owned by me and all other citizens. Taxpayers have hired the BLM to administer our land. There are some disagreements about the rules, as there will always be in more or less terms.
How do I view our collective rights? My interest for forty-three years has been researching our history and presenting it to the public. The attitudes and rules over the past fifty years have evolved concerning this subject, as have my attitude evolved...

Hi'ya Gork,

Quotes being quotes, and all, perhaps you might like to tell us about this hiring of which you speak. Seems to me that the BLM is a semi modern agency that mutated into it's current "stewardship" via bureaucratic fiat. There was no hiring by citizens.

The concept of "Multiple Use" also seems to have fallen by the wayside, in favor of an ever broadening miasma of rule & regulation.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled book promotion...

 

[kuger]

Hi'ya Gork,

Quotes being quotes, and all, perhaps you might like to tell us about this hiring of which you speak. Seems to me that the BLM is a semi modern agency that mutated into it's current "stewardship" via bureaucratic fiat. There was no hiring by citizens.

The concept of "Multiple Use" also seems to have fallen by the wayside, in favor of an ever broadening miasma of rule & regulation.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled book promotion...

...

 

[Gork]

Hi'ya Gork,

Quotes being quotes, and all, perhaps you might like to tell us about this hiring of which you speak. Seems to me that the BLM is a semi modern agency that mutated into it's current "stewardship" via bureaucratic fiat. There was no hiring by citizens.

The concept of "Multiple Use" also seems to have fallen by the wayside, in favor of an ever broadening miasma of rule & regulation.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled book promotion...

surf:

Your basic assessment is good. Your intelligent assessment of the exact position of the BLM is correct. My statement was actually a mild criticism of the rhetoric that we often use in calling our Federal Lands "BLM Land." I was implying that we should correctly call these lands "Federal Lands administered for us by the BLM." The emphasis is on "for us." There are two sides to it as there are in many discussions. You are correct that the concept of "multiple land use" has fallen by the wayside, and here again, I agree with you.

Actually, I am on your side in many ways. It seems that the word "treasure" is a dirty word to some segments of our society, when it is just a word. In particular "Treasure Hunting" has a particularly bad connotation. But the fallacy is that there is nothing wrong with it when done legally. We should really have a civil discussion on changing our laws. It is my opinion that the 1979 archeology act is a dysfunctional act as you have implied and it should be changed through legislation. In Great Britain treasure is not a dirty word. If we had an act such as the Treasure Trove Act of Great Britain it would bring us all into the fold and preserve our history at the same time. This act would probably meet the "multiple use" that our public lands were meant for. Instead of our bickering here we should use our energies to change the existing legislation.

Also, I do promote my book (as all authors rightly do) for two reasons. The history that the general public knows about the Butterfield Trail in Arizona has reached mythical proportions and I am very interested in our "true" history. If there is any part of what I have stated about the history of the Butterfield Trail that anyone disagrees with, let me know. I would love to have a civil discussion about any of the historical accounts that you might disagree with as I am always looking for new information to pass on. And I sure would like to at least cover the costs of the book.

All authors promote their books, and indeed a number of people on this site have ordered my book. This is just normal. I have just returned from a two month speaking tour to many organizations in Arizona. One particularly receptive one was a prospecting club in Yuma. I have now given two talks to them, one about the Butterfield Trail in Arizona and one about mining in the Klondike.

So, as you can see we actually agree. There is no antagonism on my part towards you.

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