✅ SOLVED Butterfield find in AZ - What is it?

[Daugela]

Hi guys - first post.

Been metal detecting the Overland/Butterfield route that travels up from Maricopa, AZ to Gila Bend, AZ. The stretch I'm interested in is the area just south of Rainbow Valley which is southwest of Phoenix. Seems like it's unchartered territory. There's never people there... I found this item about 6 inches deep on the route. I have no clue what it is. Several people say it looks like the part that screws on the top of a gunpowder flask? Any thoughts?

 

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[surf]

I was implying that we should correctly call these lands "Federal Lands administered for us by the BLM." The emphasis is on "for us." There are two sides to it as there are in many discussions.

Hey Gork,

I've got no pick with you, either, despite what I viewed as a rather heavy handed response to Daugela, 2 month after the fact, with entirely too much innuendo for my taste. I agree with most of your points in this last bit.

However, I do believe that the BLM, and a number of other agencies, administer their fiefdoms for themselves, and not for "us."

As far as the OP picking up a surface find of an old lamp part, what possible benefit could that small piece hold for any government agency, or archeologist. It will not add any "context" to whatever fieldwork is not happening in the area. The warehouses of government, and acedemia, are overflowing with such bits. Some never cataloged or examined, certainly never exhibit to any of "us."

"Our side," in this equation, is not served, nor represented by the BLM or any of it's ugly government siblings, in my opinion. I completely agree that the ARPA is a dysfunctional, poorly written feather in the cap of bureaucrats in DC, and darn few others.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I don't understand what the bruhaha is about this fellow daugela md'ing on BLM land. I guess it's about the "particular item" he found, right? Not the sole act of someone "swinging a detector" or even finding items. It's about the TYPE item a person finds. Because .......... check out this link. This particular link says "Ca", but .. I'm guessing its applicable (would be the same) for BLM lands in other states as well, eh?

Metal Detecting, Bureau of Land Management, California

Then I guess the only question would be how is an "artifact" defined? I suppose we could all start down a rabbit trail, of finding enough archies to answer that "pressing question" by telling us that when something is 50 or 100 yrs. old, etc.... But.... seriously now ........... I asked a state-of-CA bureaucrat this question (as it pertains to the state-of-CA owned beaches, where detectors are a common site). Although this deals with a different entity, I bet BLM's answer would be akin to this type "safe" answer. Here was his answer:


" 1. The terms "historical resource" and "cultural resources" are defined in federal regulations for the National Marine Sanctuary Program at Title 15 of the US Code of Federal Regulations, Section 922.3. (See MBNMS: Sanctuary Law & Regulations). Objects of special national or cultural significance (e.g. Air Force One) would be immediately considered an historic resource, regardless of age, upon entering the sanctuary. More typically, applicable objects within the sanctuary become historical artifacts when their age exceeds 50 years.

2. In response to your quesions about horse shoes and broken glass, a related incident occurred several years ago. A couple discovered an old wagon wheel (approx 100 years old) exposed within the intertidal zone following a winter storm and took it home. They subsequently had to surrender the wheel to law enforcement authorities, as their collection and possession of it violated both federal and state law. With regard to polished glass shards, an enforcement officer could question removal if he/she felt there was a reasonable possibility that such objects meet the definition of an historical resource. To confirm a violation would require confiscation of the objects and subsequent assessment to determine their age and origin. This might be a practical exercise if, for example, someone were in possession of such objects near a known wrecksite for a vessel that had been carrying a large cargo of glass items. There is no guaranteed answer to your question, however - potential violations for such activities would be case dependent. "

But the point is, as I say, detectors are a common site on state of CA beaches. And ....... gasp .... some of us have found mercury and barber dimes, horseshoes, polished glass shards, etc....

 

[cudamark]

I have to agree with surf on this one. If this item was left "in situ" nobody would have known about it at all and it would likely never have been found if left up the the archies to find it.......unless of course.......they used umpteen millions of our tax dollars to do so. And what would they have found? A piece to an oil lamp? Is that a big surprise that someone went down that trail and had an oil lamp with them? I think they just get their nose out of joint because it wasn't them that found it.....but some lowly detectorist.

 

[JeromeAz]

Here we go again! I already went off on this subject before and our wonderful government. The so called artifacts that we're not suppose to dig up. What is it? Somebody's trash. Big deal! They call it artifacts, it's still trash. What good is it going to do to leave it in ground? None! Who cares if people dig it up? There are thousands of museums, Universities and Colleges that have all this stuff. You can go there and see it. Of course they can go out and dig it up. Sure they study it. Yep its an old bottle! OK next. Yep it's a tobacco tin. Those places have dug up so much! Let people dig up what's left. Yes don't tear up the place doing it and fill in your holes. Unless people go out and dig things up they'll never be seen. I could go on and on about this but why? It does no good. The government makes the laws not the American people! Gork says we hired the BLM? No we didn't, the government did! Do we have any say so on the laws being made? No! Who owns Federal land? Who owns the government? The Americans! But yet we have no say so! All laws should go before the people to vote on. Get rid of congress! Get rid of lobbyist! They're money hungry and crooks! Get rid of them and you'll see the national debt come down fast! We don't need congress we have a governor for every state. Good enough! I could go on and on but I think I've said enough.

In case your wondering, no I don't own a metal detector but that's not going to stop me from sticking up for people that do. Its our land! Its a stupid law, not the first and probably not the last. Let the people dig things up!

 

[SCDigginWithAK]

Pretty cool find in my opinion. I think Kruger nailed it. Congrats!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

it's too hot...I am surprised he picked it up...had to burn his hand...{or her}

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I once had a smokie u at the grand canyon yell at me for throwing a pebble into that big old hole...this was back in 1960...
what's the harm was my attitude an response...what if everyone threw a pebble? how long would it be a canyon? was his response...
back then I didn't understand...now I do.

 

[JeromeAz]

Considering there's a big river down there that would wash that stuff away it would never get filled up besides the park service landscapers in the bottom of the canyon clean that stuff up. Lol!

 

[cudamark]

I once had a smokie u at the grand canyon yell at me for throwing a pebble into that big old hole...this was back in 1960...
what's the harm was my attitude an response...what if everyone threw a pebble? how long would it be a canyon? was his response...
back then I didn't understand...now I do.

10 trillion dollars and a fleet of earth moving equipment couldn't fill in the Grand Canyon. I'd be more concerned about someone on the trail below getting hit with a rock than filling in the canyon.

 

[JeromeAz]

If everyone in the world threw one pebble in the Grand Canyon what would happen? Nothing. There'd be more rocks with all the rocks all ready down there. Stupid Smokey!

 

[kuger]

what if the whole world farted at the same time?

 

[JeromeAz]

Hopefully it would change the government's way of thinking so they'd change some these laws against metal detecting and digging so called relics.

 

[cudamark]

what if the whole world farted at the same time?

As long as nobody lit a match, we should be ok.....

 

[kuger]

As long as nobody lit a match, we should be ok.....

..still wouldnt stink as bad as our Government.....

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

the thing about one track minds is you never see anything past the garbage along the tracks.

 

[JeromeAz]

the thing about one track minds is you never see anything past the garbage along the tracks.

Tracks? Wait a minute. Are you talking about the Wilcox Train Robbery? That's a different post Mister! Lol!

 

[SCDigginWithAK]

As long as nobody lit a match, we should be ok.....

As long as no one would breathe lol