🥇 BANNER Bottle with a note inside 5 to 6 inches deep in the ground.

[BIGSCOTT]

Newsletters are cool loaded with names, from reading them i find that lots of guys came and went,
but i had an idea i took one of the names from the news letter and searched family search for his name
washington county minnesota 1940, and low and behold 3 pages of census ccc enrollees in alphabetical order,
our guys arent there, but i kinda expected that as i had searched washington county before but if they had a newsletter
in Bayport hopefully they had one in Rochester.

 

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[Iron Buzz]

Newsletters are cool loaded with names, from reading them i find that lots of guys came and went,
but i had an idea i took one of the names from the news letter and searched family search for his name
washington county minnesota 1940, and low and behold 3 pages of census ccc enrollees in alphabetical order,
our guys arent there, but i kinda expected that as i had searched washington county before but if they had a newsletter
in Bayport hopefully they had one in Rochester.

I was just about to reply to your previous post regarding the Washington County census by saying that I didn't think that CCC members would be on the census, but from the sounds of this post, I would have been mistaken!

Problem for me with the CCC Newsletter site (which has more than just Bayport, but doesn't seem to have Rochester) is that you can't apparently do any sort of text search, and there is just too much meaningless (to this purpose) stuff in there. I gave up quickly.

 

[DCMatt]

Here's another curveball for you to swing at:


The Mayo Clinic Mitchell Student Center (originally Rochester Public Library) was built by the Public Works Administration in Rochester in 1936 - 37. I assume they also had a camp in Rochester during that time period.


I don't know if there was any relationship between the CCC, PWA, and WPA for sharing projects/workers. I doubt it, though.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Here's another curveball for you to swing at:


The Mayo Clinic Mitchell Student Center (originally Rochester Public Library) was built by the Public Works Administration in Rochester in 1936 - 37. I assume they also had a camp in Rochester during that time period.


I don't know if there was any relationship between the CCC, PWA, and WPA for sharing projects/workers. I doubt it, though.

What a coincidence that you should mention the WPA! I just received this from Barbara Sommers, the researcher that I emailed:

Dan,

I've scanned through the notes and transcripts about the Quarry Hill info. A couple of points:

1. the Rochester CCC camp was a veterans camp, meaning the enrollees in it were veterans of WWI. The V-CCC was a special CCC program established to help WWI veterans who were out of work.
2. the Rochester CCC camp was a temporary summer tent camp in 1933 and 1934 with a soil conservation work assignment
3. the long-running Rochester CCC camp, served by CCC Company V-1774, opened on what is now the Olmsted County Fairgrounds in 1935. It was a year-round camp with many buildings. Its work assignment was soil conservation in the Rochester area. ,In 1939, the camp was dismantled and the buildings were moved to what is now the Bayport golf course. Company V-1774 moved with the camp; the enrollees did soil conservation in the Bayport area until the camp was closed in the summer of 1942 at the end of the CCC.
4. I'm wondering if you found materials from a WPA work camp. I don't have a list of WPA work camps but there were many of them in Minnesota. The WPA had a number of basic work programs - many were in cities and towns where workers installed paved streets and sidewalks, built schools and public buildings and, in some cases,airports, and the like. But the WPA also had rural work camps that looked a little like CCC camps, but were not run by the US Army as the CCC camps were so they didn't have the polished look or control that the CCC camps had. The WPA work camps were for out-of-work (homeless?) men who would not have qualified for the CCC (the CCC took young men aged 18-25 and WWI veterans).
5. Perhaps a search of newspapers from the area would turn up more info about the WPA in the area. You could also search online for info about WPA work camps in Minnesota. I don't know much about them except that they often confused with CCC camps because the WPA work camp program was/is not as well known as the CCC program was.

I hope this helps. I'd be interested in hearing more about what you find.

Barb Sommer

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Iron Buzz I didnt think so either like i said my family search insnt working properly so all I can see is
the index But a 5 page census came up the last 2 pages are blank all the names are in alphapetical order
and listed as student, a lot of these guys list last place of residence as Rocheste Olmstead Minnesota, there
are also Quite a few from Iowa, I read somewhere that in 1939 the ccc didnt renew their lease and all the boys
were worried that they would soon be disbanded, but at the last minute they renewd the lease but only stayed
a little while before moving to bayport, since i couldnt find anything on a project there i assumed that they
disbanded shortly after, but according to the news letters yhey were there untill at least late 1942.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

DCMatt, ive kinda had a hunch that along about 1929 farming got bad and many of these people
had to go seek work elsewhere, Ely, Linn, Co. Iowa is close to Cedar Rapids so there would be some jobs there
as it was an industrious place lots of mills and such on the Cedar river, then on up the Cedar river to Austin, Mower, Co. Minnesota
a very industrious place and the home to a very famous butcher George A Hormel, yep Austin is still where most of the
worlds Spam comes from - man you talk about hog heaven - I thought the WPA stated about then but from what ive
been reading it started about the same time as the ccc, and the ccc absorbed many of their projects, So My theory was some of these men
( to save the farm ) traveled to Cedar Rapids, then to Austin Minnesota, then to Rochester Minnesota, working, but when the work
went to Bayport Minnesota, they were getting farther from home and with rumurs of war they decided to return home and farm again.

 

[Iron Buzz]

You guys will have to check out this thread about a token I dug yesterday in St. Paul!!
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...g-bar-bud-s-place-st-paul-mn.html#post5526882

Gotta wonder if he knew Frank Hubechek!

Frank X. Kreiling 1869-1949. Lived Chippewa Falls WI in 1905 and 1910, Wheaton WI in 1930. Married Amelia Barbara Thaler Jan 17, 1899 in Chippewa Falls, WI. Was in real estate by 1910. 1900 Census lists his occupation as saloon keeper. Token dates 1890-1910.

FRANK HUBECHEK, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN SALONIST, 1900-1910

[Edit... Kreilling's saloon was at 925 N. Prairie. Nothing there now, according to Google Street View. Hubechek's was 1 Main St. They were about 1/2 apart if walking. Nothiing is there now, according to Google street view (except for possibly a detectable grass lot!!)]

 

[DCMatt]

I was hoping Barb Sommer would have access to the CCC rolls to check the names on the notes...

If we could confirm the names are on the rolls it would tell the story. If not, it would focus the research.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Well, this thread & mystery seem to be winding down for lack of information. I was really hoping we'd be able to solve it.

Anyway, I did get this in my email today, FWIW

Hi, Dan—



Your email caught up with me while I was on vacation this week, and I’m just now finding time to give this some thought. I understand that names mentioned by the person who wrote your note were found on the rolls of some regional CCC camps, but it seems more likely to me that these men could have been working for the WPA. Rochester’s CCC camp was home to a company of military veterans (World War I and the Spanish American War). It was a pretty static group (terms of enrollment for veterans did not expire in six months, as they did for younger men) that worked pretty much exclusively on soil conservation projects at farms in the region around Rochester. The only non-farm projects I know of were some landscape improvements at the county fairgrounds (where the camp was located) and a tree-planting project at the WPA-built Silver Lake Park. The CCC was a very structured residential and employment program. The residential portion was overseen by the army and the work projects were designed and supervised by staff of relevant government agencies. In Rochester, the supervising agency was the U.S. Soil Conservation Service. As in the army, enrollees could advance to a field supervisory position with somewhat higher pay if they demonstrated leadership ability, but such opportunities were limited and probably tightly controlled.



On the other hand, the WPA was a work program that supported a diversity of projects, many of which were in construction. Rochester WPA projects included a lot of road construction and quarrying, development of parks, and construction of public buildings downtown, at the fairgrounds, and, most notably, at the Rochester State Hospital—near where your note was found. Since the WPA was not a residential program, there were no constraints on how participants spent their own time, or with whom. As well, the allocation of jobs and supervisory roles was less structured and probably more vulnerable to corruption.



I don’t know how committed your group is to investigating the people mentioned in the note, but you could consider checking the 1930 and 1940 census to identify what kind of work they did and where they were living. Although it would be labor-intensive, you could also look at the Rochester newspaper throughout 1936 to see if you can find coverage of the robberies. You can find these on microfilm at the Minnesota Historical Society.



Have fun solving your mystery!



Jane F. Bisel

Blue Planet Museum Consulting, LLC

1223 Skyline Drive SW

Rochester, MN 55902

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Thing is the ccc, or the wpa didnt exist when the 1930 census was taken, and in 1940 ccc 1774-v was in Bayport minn.
now maybe just maybe the wpa was still in Rochester in 1940, but we figure the crime if there was one, happened mid 1930's.

But a BIG THANKS to Jane, and Barb for taking the time to help us.

 

[Roger Mn.]

Rodger you said just north of 4th st.SE is that correct, or did you mean 4th st NE, any way hospital records say there was a cemetery
before the one that is there now, they called it rosemont and all signs of it are gone today, they said it was north of the hospital, at
the property boundry near the railroad tracks, i dont see any railroad tracks from google maps.

another thing i have stated that it almost looks like writer of the notes was walking through a cemetery writing down stuff off of
headstones, have you thought about soldiers field veterans memorial?

Going east on 4th.st SE the street curves North and is now called College view,Rd.
College view rd. is now in line with 2nd.St. SE. That's were the St. Hospital used to be. The railroad tracks are about a city block north of college view road.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/quarry+hill+park+rochester+mn/@44.0278322,-92.4382065,15z

 

[Roger Mn.]

Rochester State Hospital Cemetery .

https://www.google.com/search?safe=...95!3d44.02839690618342!3m2!1i946!2i489!4f13.1

 

[cw0909]

RR to cemetery
https://goo.gl/maps/Py1LdxZHJtD2

 

[cw0909]

I was just about to reply to your previous post regarding the Washington County census by saying that I didn't think that CCC members would be on the census, but from the sounds of this post, I would have been mistaken!

Problem for me with the CCC Newsletter site (which has more than just Bayport, but doesn't seem to have Rochester) is that you can't apparently do any sort of text search, and there is just too much meaningless (to this purpose) stuff in there. I gave up quickly.

ccc newsletter, when you open the link, next to img tab is a transcript tab
in your browser bar is a find/search tab somewhere,depends on what browser
your using
i havent tried looking yet maybe later in wk

newsletters
Newsletter of a Civilian Conservation Corps camp at Bayport, Minnesota. - Minnesota Reflections Search Results

 

[Whitesmd]

I'm sad that this thread seems to have hit a dead end. Wish I had something to contribute that push it further along. Hats off to all of you that did the hard research!

 

[wilsondog]

I also don't want to see this thread run dry so I will use that as an excuse to offer some more half-baked thoughts or at least my thought process. Among the most curious aspects of this note is the fact that is it unsigned. If you believe (as I have) that the writer was trying to provide post-mortem evidence of what happened to him if he ended up missing, it is particularly odd that he does not obviously identify who “he” is. I have a couple of theories why the writer seemingly omitted this crucial information:
1. The writer presumed that the location of the bottle would make it clear who wrote the note. Under this theory, the bottle would have been buried on land or near a dwelling owned by, or closely associated with, the writer. A parcel or dwelling closely associated with, but not owned by, the writer would be difficult to research several decades later because an “association” well known to the writer’s contemporaries may not be known or documented years after. Ownership is generally documented in this era and there is some ability to research ownership.
I looked into location/ownership a little bit based on the location description Rodgerdodger provided. I tried to use the location of the railroad tracks, Silver Creek, and County Road 2 as reference points. I think the area where note was found may have been in Haverhill Township, Olmstead county, which falls just across the Rochester border. See map linked here. County Map, Atlas: Olmsted County 1928, Minnesota Historical Map Zoom in on the NE corner of Rochester and follow the river and RR east into Haverhill. Here are a few additional maps:
a. 1896 map of Rochester (but includes land in Haverhill)– is there a JH Rulon (Rolland?) in the area? http://geo.lib.umn.edu/plat_books/olmstead1896/reference/map02007.jpg
b. 1928 land plat for Haverhill – look for creek and RR in southwest corner. No names jump out to me. Haverhill Township, Atlas: Olmsted County 1928, Minnesota Historical Map
c. 1950 land plat for Haverhill - look for creek and RR in southwest corner. No names jump out to me. Haverhill Township, Rochester, Atlas: Olmsted County 1950c, Minnesota Historical Map
2. The writer presumed that the paper used would identify the writer to contemporaries. The question is essentially whether the writer viewed the “Butcher’s Daily Receipt” as his letterhead, or an identifier sufficient to identify him to contemporaries. This could be so if: (a) there were so few butcher shops/ slaughter houses in the area that reader would have no question that it was “the butcher” meat cutter, etc. that went missing; (b) the receipt combined with the location sufficiently identified the writer. That would mean that there was a butcher shop or slaughter house in the location and that the writer was an owner or well-known employee; (c) this specific “Butcher’s Daily Receipt” was used by a specific butcher shop/slaughter house and that contemporaries would have made that association.
3. The writer separately communicated with someone about his identity – The theory here is that the writer told a loved one/friend/etc to go find a buried bottle at location X if anything every happens to me and that the note would explain the circumstances. I don’t favor this theory because, if the buried note was preplanned, I would expect the note to be more thorough and organized. I think the note has the appearance of being rushed and/or written under duress. [I also don’t favor this theory because it will probably mean we will hit a dead end.]
4. The writer presumed that identifying his attackers was sufficient to identify him – Under this theory, the writer must have assumed that the attackers were well known and that their harassment of him was so well known that contemporaries would readily identify the victim. I don’t favor this theory because, if the harassment and threats are so well known, why would the writer make this attempt to communicate this information? I don’t think the note is written for future generations because the partial names and references presumes some contemporary knowledge on the part of the reader. Then again, he treated the note/bottle more like a time capsule than a clue that could be stumbled upon by a contemporary.
5. The writer DID sign the note – Obviously, the note is not the embodiment of precision and clarity so it is difficult so say what role was played by each person identified.
a. Is the writer Arty Kennedy? That name appears at the top of what may be the first page and is somewhat disjointed from the rest of the names and identifiers. The two names that follow (Rolland and Hubachek) have identifiers. Essentially, “page 2” would be conveying the following. “I’m Arty Kennedy [or whatever that name says] and here is my statement. This is about Frank Rolland who was the boss in 1936 and Frank Hubachek from Chipawa Falls, WI. He ran a saloon there from 1900 to 1910. Frank Rolland and Frank Hubachek worked together on Arthur Holet’s farm [not sure about proper name but I think it’s identifying a specific farm] from 1895 to 1899.” Then it goes onto into describe what happened and introduces the new characters (Zahedrik and the other Holet – Joe) + spouses. Are these farm laborers fighting over a job or favored position?
b. Is the writer Harriet Tang or Jang? – this is the hazy name on the reverse of the “Butcher’s daily receipt” Maybe. Maybe the writer is a she but, for reasons I cannot explain, I just don’t see it. Its worth exploring if this is an identifier. Assuming we could nail down the spelling, the name seems unique enough to potentially track.
6. The writer is delusional – a few posters suggested this and I was initially resistant – mostly because I preferred a narrative where these things actually happened rather than being imagined by the writer. Under this theory, the writer escaped from the Rochester State Hospital, which was an asylum very close to this location. Before he can be captured, the writer rushed to identify those who were trying to kill him. Paranoid delusions about people trying to kill you would seem to be the precise symptoms that land someone in an asylum and, even though I don’t know much about mental illness, I think it is true that paranoid or delusional people like this are desperate to communicate the threat and have someone believe them. And they may feel like their caretakers are part of the problem. That may explain the desire to escape and to hide the note – and it may explain the odd decision to bury the information the writer was seemingly desperate to communicate. It may also explain the really strange failure to sign the note. I also think it explains the odd variability in detail. For instance, the writer says the specific type gun Rolland was threatening to use but only vaguely references what the dispute is about. Consider also the incredibly important and incredibly vague statement on which the writer devoted an entire page “He just robbed me and robbed them here too.” The letter also meanders on details without ever clearly explaining “He” “Them” or “here.” I used to work for a congressman and he would get lots of mail from clearly delusional people (because congress and the CIA have mind control devices and put voices in our heads). Those letters were very similar in that they contained very specific details while at the same time being utterly incomprehensible and impossible to follow.
We may be able to test this theory through research. I have not yet found records for the Rochester State Hospital but they may have records of escapes. The names in the note could also be the writer, other patients, or hospital staff that were either part of the delusion or part of team attempting to recover the writer.

 

[Whitesmd]

Thanks for sharing your keen insights. Food for thought.

 

[cw0909]

wilsondog, good ideas, but im not sure the cem and rr area is where rodgerdoger
found the bottle, i think BIGSCOTT was asking about the cem and rr, then we showed it
ill have to go back and read, to see if rodgerdoger ever pin pointed the spot @ the park
where bottle was found, from memory i dont think he did, and without it, it would be harder
to see if privately owned in 1936 or part of the state hospital land

 

[EagleRidge]

Wilsondog - 5a: I also think Arty Kendy was most likely the writer. "Kennedy" was guessed by someone on here, but, Kendy is a name. If that was the writer, he wouldn't miss spell his own name. 5b: Tang was just a customer on the 20-30 year old papers he found to write on (the other side of the paper has matching meat product item numbers that match the "Tang" section). The vCC #1774, that was in that area at that time, is still the most likely connection. That would work with the ages of the found Iowa connections (WWI vets) and having wives.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

wilsondog, good things to ponder, the state hospital when it was built was partialy in Rochester township#1, partialy in Rochester township#2.
partialy in Haverhill township,and partialy in Marion Township.