Bitcoin v. PMs

Hitndahed said:
======================================================
Millions of OUR tax dollars "VANISH" every day.

What "assets" makes paper good?

OUR OWN government STOLE the citizens of the UNITED STATES PERSONAL GOLD for cripes sake,,Gave those same citizens "pretty colored bits of paper"in return,, and you trust them?


So PLEASE do tell me something bad about Bitcoin. I have been involved for a very long time,,
The ONLY time you hear or see it in the news outlets (MSM) is when there is a negative association with it,,such as the one you mentioned. Or it getting used to buy illicit items.
Bitcoin is now accepted at Amazon,,Overstock.com,,Tiger Direct,,,and a slew of other legitimate places.


Tell me,, do you have stocks,,,bonds,,,or any other form of non-tangible "assets"?
its just PAPER with an "implied" value attached.

Do you like having our own government TAKING from you the things and cash you worked so hard to get?


Bitcoin cuts out the "middleman" (government) and puts the possibility of true self worth within the reach of every single person in the world.

No individual country can make it their own,, it is worldwide now and it will not ever be stopped.

I use it as much as possible to buy everyday things,,and even high end items too.


It is not just Bitcoin that is in the news,, there are over 500 different crypto currencies now. Some are for specific purposes but every one can be turned into a "real" currency.
WITHOUT any government getting involved. To me it
is FREEDOM.
None of this response is an attack on anyone, I use YOU to mean everyone.

Hit
Click to expand...

Where do I even begin? You've put forward an awful lot of common rhetoric but I have to say that a lot of what you are saying is just that... rhetoric.

You said: "OUR OWN government STOLE the citizens of the UNITED STATES PERSONAL GOLD for cripes sake".

I'm not disagreeing that what the government did was underhanded. But the term "stole" implies that the citizens got nothing back in return. Again, it was underhanded, but it was hardly stealing. It was "confiscation WITH compensation" which is better than "confiscation WITHOUT compensation". I did a couple of posts recently on problems with gold standards that covered WHY this often happens and why people who wish for the gold standard are actually potentially setting us all up for such confiscation to happen in the future.

You said: "Tell me,, do you have stocks,,,bonds,,,or any other form of non-tangible "assets"? Its just PAPER with an "implied" value attached."

I fail to see how Bitcoin is any different. Any "value" is "implied" and based solely on what people who speculate in it want to give you for it. Again, I'm not saying that stocks or bonds have implicit value. But neither does Bitcoin.

You said: "Bitcoin cuts out the "middleman" (government) and puts the possibility of true self worth within the reach of every single person in the world.
No individual country can make it their own,, it is worldwide now and it will not ever be stopped. "

I think this is one of the biggest Bitcoin "fallacies" that people get caught up in. Because Bitcoin is an "open system" it is possible for organizations or governments to control large aspects of it such that the original idea behind Bitcoin gets lost. For example, most people currently purchase bitcoins through an "exchange". There is nothing about the Bitcoin protocol that keeps these exchanges from banding together to enforce new rules or even to change the protocol itself. Exchanges carry a lot of clout. These exchanges can ultimately be forced to adhere to government rules if they want to stay in business. So although an exchange is not strictly necessary to do business with Bitcoin, it is so widely accepted and engrained in the current process that it would not be hard to see how exchanges could eventually take over and "own" a large part of the Bitcoin process. This could allow them to change it. Although changing the protocol would be difficult and require buy-in from a lot of groups, it IS possible and eventually will be necessary if Bitcoin expects to be accepted as a true world currency.

You said: "It is not just Bitcoin that is in the news,, there are over 500 different crypto currencies now. Some are for specific purposes but every one can be turned into a "real" currency."

Exactly. So if Bitcoin gets to the point where it no longer meets the needs of the people or governments who want to use it, then there is nothing keeping these entities from abandoning it and starting a new one that DOES meet their needs. Bitcoin is self limiting. If it ever gets to the point where it IS widely used and therefore potentially expensive or "rare", then people will simply abandon it for some other crypto currency. People are not going to spend large amounts of their wealth to acquire a currency just to make purchases. Instead, they will find a suitable alternative to make their purchases with.

There is nothing about Bitcoin that FORCES people to need/use it. And therefore, when it gets the least bit difficult or expensive for people to acquire it, then it will die because there are way too many other options. What you consider a strength of Bitcoin (no government oversight, no one "controls" it, etc.) is actually the aspect of the currency that will probably lead to its downfall.

Bitcoin is a convenience. When it is no longer a convenience, it's gone.... I hear a lot of Bitcoin lovers say things like "Bitcoin is rare". This is simply not true. If/when Bitcoin truly does become rare, then it will die. Other than speculators, no one is going to spend additional energy trying to acquire "rare" bitcoins (likely at a premium) just so that they can buy their groceries. They abandon it and go with something else.
 

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bradley1719 said:
Where do I even begin? You've put forward an awful lot of common rhetoric but I have to say that a lot of what you are saying is just that... rhetoric.

You said: "OUR OWN government STOLE the citizens of the UNITED STATES PERSONAL GOLD for cripes sake".

I'm not disagreeing that what the government did was underhanded. But the term "stole" implies that the citizens got nothing back in return. Again, it was underhanded, but it was hardly stealing. It was "confiscation WITH compensation" which is better than "confiscation WITHOUT compensation". I did a couple of posts recently on problems with gold standards that covered WHY this often happens and why people who wish for the gold standard are actually potentially setting us all up for such confiscation to happen in the future.

You said: "Tell me,, do you have stocks,,,bonds,,,or any other form of non-tangible "assets"? Its just PAPER with an "implied" value attached."

I fail to see how Bitcoin is any different. Any "value" is "implied" and based solely on what people who speculate in it want to give you for it. Again, I'm not saying that stocks or bonds have implicit value. But neither does Bitcoin.

You said: "Bitcoin cuts out the "middleman" (government) and puts the possibility of true self worth within the reach of every single person in the world.
No individual country can make it their own,, it is worldwide now and it will not ever be stopped. "

I think this is one of the biggest Bitcoin "fallacies" that people get caught up in. Because Bitcoin is an "open system" it is possible for organizations or governments to control large aspects of it such that the original idea behind Bitcoin gets lost. For example, most people currently purchase bitcoins through an "exchange". There is nothing about the Bitcoin protocol that keeps these exchanges from banding together to enforce new rules or even to change the protocol itself. Exchanges carry a lot of clout. These exchanges can ultimately be forced to adhere to government rules if they want to stay in business. So although an exchange is not strictly necessary to do business with Bitcoin, it is so widely accepted and engrained in the current process that it would not be hard to see how exchanges could eventually take over and "own" a large part of the Bitcoin process. This could allow them to change it. Although changing the protocol would be difficult and require buy-in from a lot of groups, it IS possible and eventually will be necessary if Bitcoin expects to be accepted as a true world currency.

You said: "It is not just Bitcoin that is in the news,, there are over 500 different crypto currencies now. Some are for specific purposes but every one can be turned into a "real" currency."

Exactly. So if Bitcoin gets to the point where it no longer meets the needs of the people or governments who want to use it, then there is nothing keeping these entities from abandoning it and starting a new one that DOES meet their needs. Bitcoin is self limiting. If it ever gets to the point where it IS widely used and therefore potentially expensive or "rare", then people will simply abandon it for some other crypto currency. People are not going to spend large amounts of their wealth to acquire a currency just to make purchases. Instead, they will find a suitable alternative to make their purchases with.

There is nothing about Bitcoin that FORCES people to need/use it. And therefore, when it gets the least bit difficult or expensive for people to acquire it, then it will die because there are way too many other options. What you consider a strength of Bitcoin (no government oversight, no one "controls" it, etc.) is actually the aspect of the currency that will probably lead to its downfall.

Bitcoin is a convenience. When it is no longer a convenience, it's gone.... I hear a lot of Bitcoin lovers say things like "Bitcoin is rare". This is simply not true. If/when Bitcoin truly does become rare, then it will die. Other than speculators, no one is going to spend additional energy trying to acquire "rare" bitcoins (likely at a premium) just so that they can buy their groceries. They abandon it and go with something else.
Click to expand...
==================================================================================
The government DID ,,,even at GUNPOINT at times,, relieve American Citizens of personally acquired gold. yes,,, STOLE IT


EXACTLY,,,the term used is IMPLIED VALUE


The ONLY way for anyone to "control" the Bitcoin blockchain is to own the majority,,, its called a 51% attack I believe.
Same as anything else,, The more you have,, the more you control. Thus the development of ALTERNATIVE crypto-currencies, AKA "ALTS".


The ONLY way ANY government needs to be involved is when those cryptos are EXCHANGED for FIAT currencies. IE dollar,,euro,,yen etc.


It is not just about "Bitcoin". That one is just the first one that came into the public eye.
It is a convenience,, it is being used all over the world.


With the release of Darkcoin (recently rebranded to Dash), anoncoin and a few others that provide more anonymity,,there will always be crypto-currencies in use.



To me,, what it comes down to is this.



1, I work hard for MY INCOME,, it is MINE,,,There is not one thing the government provides for me that I cannot provide for myself.
including food,,water,,housing,,,"services" etc.

2, Being FORCED to pay any "taxes" is theft,,, plain and simple..I have always objected to and always will object to this.

3, Licenses,,fees,,permits etc. Again FORCED payment AKA theft.


There is so much I won't keep on with it,,now back to Bitcoin.

I work,, my money,,spend where I want,,when I want with no theft,,No one needs to be involved in any of my "transactions" but me and the other party.
Someone agrees to a "contract" and someone pays for it.


And yes,,, it will be rare,,but define rare? to me it is scarcity..As mining declines,,there will be less new coin produced. But then there are plenty of established ALTS available to fill that niche.
I akin BTC to "gold" ,,there is a finite amount,,, and the other ALTS could be perceived as "silver" or "copper". Connotation thoughts..

I have used it for years and will continue to use it.
Hell I was even honest this year and paid TAXES on my EARNINGS,,, lmao

Hit

BTW,,, nice convo for sure,, I'm enjoying it :)
 

Hitndahed said:
==================================================================================
The government DID ,,,even at GUNPOINT at times,, relieve American Citizens of personally acquired gold. yes,,, STOLE IT


EXACTLY,,,the term used is IMPLIED VALUE


The ONLY way for anyone to "control" the Bitcoin blockchain is to own the majority,,, its called a 51% attack I believe.
Same as anything else,, The more you have,, the more you control. Thus the development of ALTERNATIVE crypto-currencies, AKA "ALTS".


The ONLY way ANY government needs to be involved is when those cryptos are EXCHANGED for FIAT currencies. IE dollar,,euro,,yen etc.


It is not just about "Bitcoin". That one is just the first one that came into the public eye.
It is a convenience,, it is being used all over the world.


With the release of Darkcoin (recently rebranded to Dash), anoncoin and a few others that provide more anonymity,,there will always be crypto-currencies in use.



To me,, what it comes down to is this.



1, I work hard for MY INCOME,, it is MINE,,,There is not one thing the government provides for me that I cannot provide for myself.
including food,,water,,housing,,,"services" etc.

2, Being FORCED to pay any "taxes" is theft,,, plain and simple..I have always objected to and always will object to this.

3, Licenses,,fees,,permits etc. Again FORCED payment AKA theft.


There is so much I won't keep on with it,,now back to Bitcoin.

I work,, my money,,spend where I want,,when I want with no theft,,No one needs to be involved in any of my "transactions" but me and the other party.
Someone agrees to a "contract" and someone pays for it.


And yes,,, it will be rare,,but define rare? to me it is scarcity..As mining declines,,there will be less new coin produced. But then there are plenty of established ALTS available to fill that niche.
I akin BTC to "gold" ,,there is a finite amount,,, and the other ALTS could be perceived as "silver" or "copper". Connotation thoughts..

I have used it for years and will continue to use it.
Hell I was even honest this year and paid TAXES on my EARNINGS,,, lmao

Hit

BTW,,, nice convo for sure,, I'm enjoying it :)
Click to expand...

Well... we have fundamental differences in opinion that go way beyond Bitcoin. I didn't like having to pay taxes this year either. But I enjoy driving down roads; not being poisoned at the local greasy spoon; having my kids educated beyond what the average person could do themselves; and using other such services that can only be paid for either by donation or taxes. And since the people of this country aren't likely to donate their money, taxes seem to be the current method.

I don't call that "stealing". The government may not do the best job at providing all the services I need. But that doesn't mean they are stealing the money and providing nothing in return. It isn't black and white... it's gray.

Taxation is likely off topic and I don't want to hijack this thread. So take care. Thanks for the discussion.
 

Personally I think it's fairly obvious whats going on with Bitcoin. One needs look no further than the price VS difficulty and network hashrate over the last 6+ months.

I doubt there will ever be a better store of value than PM's even though they are obviously manipulated as well IMO.

It's just a pitiful dam shame that such a useful technology as Bitcoin is being deliberately derailed by greed and corruption since this could save people around the world 10's or hundreds of billions of dollars annually in fraud and egregious remittance fees.
 

Silver up over 4% today (Noon CT) to $17.21/oz.....up 70 cents an ounce since yesterday. BUT, come tomorrow, I expect J P Morgan and the U S guv'mint to dump "Paper" PMs on the market to subdue the rise.
 

Goose-0 said:
Silver up over 4% today (Noon CT) to $17.21/oz.....up 70 cents an ounce since yesterday. BUT, come tomorrow, I expect J P Morgan and the U S guv'mint to dump "Paper" PMs on the market to subdue the rise.
Click to expand...

I am not sure Goose-O but you might be right. I believe at some point soon there will be a large move upward, similar to the one in 2010-2011. I will say that much of the new move (if it happens) will be due to paper manipulation, just like we saw in 2010-2011. I use the term "manipulation" simply to mean using an inordinate amount of $$$ to move a market any way you want simply due to the huge $$$ available. The paper markets make this easy since nobody has to put up the actual metals when selling or buying, unless the buyer insists on delivery which is rare- so the paper markets for commodities are kind of like naked short selling. My bet is if we get a big run up soon, the manipulators will then try to cap it at some point (approximately 26, 32, or 50 again?) and then knock it back down. This would do a number of things for them, it would let them make huge profits on the way up, then smack it down because that's what they like to do. Further, this would again cause all the PM bugs to cry and rethink why they were buying the stuff in the first place, and then make them hate it for 4 years or so or even 20 years, just like what is going on now. I feel this type of run up is coming soon but I can't say when. Due to the recent dollar weakening and the fact that gold and silver are already pretty cheap when considering their costs of production, any sustained break down in prices from 15-16 would be very limited in time and severity.

I have said this before, the ONLY way PM's will go way way up without the aid of the paper market manipulators doing it themselves, is if there is some big reason that virtually all people, not just PM bugs, decide physical metals are the go to thing and line up at coin stores to buy. This could be due to severe paper market crashes that somehow show the sheep that paper assets aren't really worth anything or something along those lines. Perhaps a currency collapse, probably would happen in the Euro first. Seeing one large currency fail could cause people to flee perceived stronger currencies like the dollar for fear it might crash too? Or if some crazy computer glitch shut down the system-bank accounts down and such for an extended time. I believe this massive run up will come someday, but not for a while. Could be 2 years or 10 years?

Although my enthusiasm for PM's is near the bottom of the scale due to the past few years, for some reason I do feel a nice up move is coming and not because I wish it so. I actually wouldn't mind being able to buy more at these lower prices for a while, even though the constant lower price is a bit disheartening. So win win either way?

Just my opinion,

Jim
 

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