Be a hero, go to jail?!

[RGINN]

Been following this case and don't know if it made national news or not. Last month in Clear Creek County a 13 year old girl fell off a raft and got swept down the the rapids for a half mile until she finally pulled herself to shore. Sheriff's deputies and a volunteer search and rescue team arrived fairly quick. The two professional raft guides said they didn't see any 'plan of action or organization of the volunteers' to reach the girl, so one jumped in and swam to her and kept her from being swept back in. When they started to do this, officers ordered them not to. Afterwards, both raft guides were arrested for 'interfering with a government operation'. I've never heard of that, is it a catch-all charge for 'making us look bad?' In some cases, it would definitely be stupid for the average citizen to attempt a rescue. These were professional raft guides, familiar with the rapids, and if that guy could swim Clear Creek during run-off, he definitely knows what he's doing. Finally, this week justice was served as the DA decided he will not prosecute. Granted, the whole thing could have turned out differently. But remember, the next time you're up here on one of those professional river rafting things, and you fall overboard, your guide just might have second thoughts about trying to help you.

 

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[spartacus53]

Wow, that is a tough one.. RGINN, I have read many of your posts, so I know that you do know the outdoors and are probably familiar with the following saying for water rescues; reach, throw, row and GO..

That being said, I am not sure of the possibilities for the first 3 safer options. I think the officer made a decision not to jeopardize additional lives, until a solution could be agreed on. Does this make sense to you

Don't get me wrong, I also see your point and that is one heck of a dilemma to face.

 

[ivan salis]

respect MY a-thor-a-tie -----as cartman would say --me big cop you do as told --ugh,

 

[RGINN]

Yeah it was a tough call, spartacus, and I could definitely see both sides of it. The thing I was taking into consideration is that these guys were professional rafting guides, and for the most part I would say these guys have more training and experience on the water than the volunteer rescue team. We have some very good and well trained rescue teams here too, but the guides basically became aggravated that the team couldn't seem to get it together and bust a move. Most popular opinion up here was on the side of the guides, cause we know a lot of these guys. I am an outdoorsman, too, but when I first came to this part of the country 6 years ago I must say that I had a vague understanding that the outdoors could kill you, and learned real fast just how quick that could happen. I had two or three pretty exciting episodes, but luckily remaining calm and keeping your wits about you goes a long way no matter what part of the country you're in. I was proud of the little girl as she was from Texas, and we lose a lot of Texans up here. She had it together or has a real good guardian angel. (And having fell into one of those rocky streams during run-off, believe me she was probably sore all over and black and blue for at least two weeks!)

 

[ivan salis]

in my veiw point --the "pro" river rafting guides were most likely much more qualified than the "volllenter" joes --most likely --being thats what they do for a living --all day every day.

 

[spartacus53]

This is an interesting situation, and surely no one is wrong in their opinion. But you have to say the officer is in charge once he arrives on the scene and he can coordinate rescues efforts the best he sees fit until additional help arrives. The other way to see it is there is a house afire, people are running around around with buckets of water trying to put it out. Although not trained, water will put out most fires, but you don't need people who are not part of a team to jump in unless truly needed.

If the officer let those men risk their lives and they died, I am sure there would have been a lawsuit somewhere along the line. We are a sue happy nation

 

[ivan salis]

of course the cop is "in charge" by law for better or worse --but is the officer using the all the resources "avialible" to him wisely? -- stop think --profesional trained "white water" type rafting guides who do this type of stuff everyday vs local yokel --"vollenteer" types -- who would be more "qualified"?--it would be like making out of town professionnal fire fighters stay away from a fire because --the "local" vollenteers want to put out the fire / be on the TV news

 

[RGINN]

The officers made a judgement call on the scene, and even if I disagree, I'll concede it was the right one on their part. Being a former cop, I probably would have made the same call. However, I might have taken a little more time afterwards getting my case together, and definitely consulted with the DA before I filed. That would have diffused the whole public blow-up. The guides did admit they saw the law's side of it and wrote a letter of apology to the SO. I still wonder about the rescue team. I know they have procedures they follow that are supposed to ensure everyone comes out alive in a rescue, and I have seen folks get excited and confuse deliberate preparation with inaction in a rescue operation. It was an interesting case, and probably only in Colorado would such a thing come up.

 

[spartacus53]

of course the cop is "in charge" by law for better or worse --but is the officer using the all the resources "avialible" to him wisely? -- stop think --profesional trained "white water" type rafting guides who do this type of stuff everyday vs local yokel --"vollenteer" types -- who would be more "qualified"?--it would be like making out of town professionnal fire fighters stay away from a fire because --the "local" vollenteers want to put out the fire / be on the TV news

This is the first time I would disagree with up to a point. Although it appeared he knew what he was doing, there are now 2 people out there to rescue. Of course I am assuming the girl is perched in a somewhat safe area waiting to be reached. When a rescue crew does arrive, they will have the proper equipment i.e. a long a$$ ladder to reach the girl. I hate to say it, but if I where that officer the mantra of reach, throw, row and go would have been racing through my mind. On the flip side I am glad that they did not prosecute the other two men.

The other good part is that it appeared the girl went down the rapids feet first, otherwise we would be seeing a totally different story.

 

[rockhound]

There are rapids in many states, and some are so remote that if you were to wait for outside help, then you will probably not make it. Your best solution would be that someone in your group rescue you. Where there are civilization and or rescue groups nearby, it might be advisable to let the authorities handle the siutuation. Although some situations can't wait for authorities to respond, as there just isn't enough time. Rash decisions have caused many lives, but also have saved many lives. I guess it all depends on the individual situation, and the ability and logical assessment of the situation at the time. Knowing your limitations and what may be required, a lot depends on you to make a rational decision in a split second. Not all are able to assess the situation make that decision. Training helps, but is not always the right solution. I would encourage all, that have not have CPR training and or other life saving tarining, to take a course at your local life saving crew. You never know when you will need it to help a loved one or a friend in need. Good Luck. rockhound

 

[Born2Dtect]

Been on two WW rafting trips. Both of my guides would have done the same. That way of thinking seems to come with the job. I would recommend either guide.

Police Officers always have discretion. They should have used it in this situation. Heck I would a have recommended an award.

Ed D.

 

[stefen]

Many times I have wondered what goes thru the minds of cops and politico's....

Its like a cop threatening to shoot a suicidal bridge jumper if he doesn't get away from the edge....something wrong with these situations...

 

[jeff of pa]

of course they are afraid a Real hero
may show them up.

 

[spartacus53]

Here's another popular phrase that may be apropos, "The graveyards are full of heroes".

 

[truckinbutch]

My wife and I were truckink through Lexington , KY . A young girl flew past us on the shoulder , struck a rock outcropping on the bank , went airborne , flipped , and ended up side down on the highway in front of us . The car on it's side with the driver's door adjar because her neck wouldn't
allow it to close with her head sticking out . A cop that was in traffic with us got there first cause I
took time to grab a blanket , fire extinguisher , prybar and rescue axe from my truck . Fellow on my heels from a couple cars back was an MD with his bag .
Cop was on his knees in a puddle of gasoline leaking from the car , talking to the still conscious
girl that was trapped by the neck in the doorframe .
He declined our offer to help in a very rude manner and ordered us back to our vehicles , stating that he had 'Professional Help' on the way .
"Fine by me , Sport ," I said as the doctor and I turned to leave .
"Don't change your mind if that gas catches fire , 'cause I ain't coming back ."

 

[bigscoop]

I think I'd have to risk going to jail. If that girl would have drown and I had to live with the notion that I might have been able to save her life....? I think that would have been deciding for me.

 

[RGINN]

truckinbutch I laughed at that post, cause I got to thinkin if I was being jumped by 12 big guys and you came up, could I be cool enough and bad enough to tell you 'No thanks, I have professional help on the way.' As a police officer, I welcomed help from the public in some cases, as long as it wouldn't endanger them, and they knew what they were doin. Guess I'm lucky I didn't get sued.

 

[jeff of pa]

I welcomed help from the public in some cases, as long as it wouldn't endanger them, and they knew what they were doin. Guess I'm lucky I didn't get sued.

See that's the Big problem there.

I know as a Policeman, You are supposed
to protect the Public even from themselves, But
Protecting the Public can hurt the public.

Fire Companies for example.
around here they are "Voluntary"
yet if Company A gets a call for a fire
& Company B Just happens to be there.
Company B can't legally Save lives
or even fight the fire Till they request from
Company A to be allowed to.

The next door neighbor can't even jump in & Help
lay out Hose, if a full crew isn't there yet.

and a Fireman won't run in a house & try to
save somone without being Suited up &
an assesment taken that it is OK for him to go in.
Yet they call these Firemen Heros ?

but if a passerby Ran for the front door they
would Tackle him.



I say in an Emergency Caution should be thrown out.

a few years ago 2 Ambulance crews at an accident got
into a fist fight on who got to haul the patient to
the Hospital
simply because the one there first was not the one
on call

somone in a car should have loaded her up
and drove her. That would have got them

 

[truckinbutch]

truckinbutch I laughed at that post, cause I got to thinkin if I was being jumped by 12 big guys and you came up, could I be cool enough and bad enough to tell you 'No thanks, I have professional help on the way.' As a police officer, I welcomed help from the public in some cases, as long as it wouldn't endanger them, and they knew what they were doin. Guess I'm lucky I didn't get sued.

Thanks ,Buddy . I've always stood with the law and put myself at risk without promise of reward
except in the instances that the OIC turned jackass .
Would I have returned if the gas had flamed ?.....................
NOPE !!! I'll help the willing , but I won't risk my life to save the stupid .

 

[RGINN]

Well it pretty much just gets down to go ahead and do it. Consequences be damned. Don't take time to speculate about court action later on. Do what you can and know you can do. And you know what? Regardless of what he says here, if that gas flamed, truckinbutch would have returned. You know you would and any one of us here would too, if we could. No way you would walk away, hoss.