Bayonet, Rapier, Sword......HELP!

[ClonedSIM]

Posting for a friend, hopefully someone can help us out with this one. This item was found in a field outside of Clovis, New Mexico. It seems to have an attachment for a rifle barrel making it resemble a bayonet, but the size seems to be more indicative of a rapier or something similar. The sheath is rusted onto the blade, hopefully that’s visible in the photos. Any help you can provide would be very welcome. Happy hunting!

PS: All apologies if the photos are too large.

 

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[duggap]

Well it is a bayonette but I can't tell you what time fram it is from. Other will I am sure.

 

[rickjr]

Looks like a WW1 bayonet, could possibly be a spainish american war also. Had one very similiar that was from WW1, donated it to the VFW.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Remington Rolling Block Sword Bayonet, maybe?

 

[cord]

Posting for a friend, hopefully someone can help us out with this one. This item was found in a field outside of Clovis, New Mexico. It seems to have an attachment for a rifle barrel making it resemble a bayonet, but the size seems to be more indicative of a rapier or something similar. The sheath is rusted onto the blade, hopefully that’s visible in the photos. Any help you can provide would be very welcome. Happy hunting!

PS: All apologies if the photos are too large.

Very nice find!

 

[Retired Sarge]

Based on the ridge on the top of the scabbard, and the lack of a button to hold a bayonet frog, the hooked quillon, leads me believe it's a type 30 Japanese Arisaka bayonet.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Based on the ridge on the top of the scabbard, and the lack of a button to hold a bayonet frog, the hooked quillon, leads me believe it's a type 30 Japanese Arisaka bayonet.

Looking at photos of the Arisaka bayonet, I have to agree, it's really very close. How would that make it to New Mexico, do you suppose? War souvenir?

 

[ClonedSIM]

Very nice find!

I only wish I could call it my find, a friend actually came up with it.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Looking at photos of the Arisaka bayonet, I have to agree, it's really very close. How would that make it to New Mexico, do you suppose? War souvenir?

I would say most likely a "War Souvenir", lost at a later date. Soaking it in some oil would help clean it up, and prevent more rusting. Might also allow some of the stampings to be seen.

 

[ECS]

Looking at the photo,there does seem to be a button for the leather frog.The hooked quillon was also used on German Soligen sword-bayonets made for the Franco Prussian War for use on Mauser rifles.Mauser sold firearms to countries all over,including South America-its a shame you can not remove it from the scabbard-it could have a county coat of arms.That same design was also employed on Austrian and Yugoslavian bayonets during WW11.I have several in my collection.
I have a Mauser K98/44 1943 with the Serbian coat of arms,with the same,but shorter version of that bayonet-all with matching serial numbers.

 

[Retired Sarge]

The raised area at the top of the scabbard is for attaching a frog, but unlike say a mauser bayonet scabbard, the frog attaches by way of a strap and buckle assembly. See examples below. First two pictures show the "Button" on a Mauser scabbard on my Mauser rifle and bayonet, the third picture is an example of a Arisaka scabbard.

 

[ECS]

The model I refered to was a 1909 Mauser sable bayoneta-one I own has the Chilean coat of arms,and is complete with original metal scabbard and leather frog.The scabbard slips into the frog,and the metal button was used to secure the leather strap that held the bayonet in place.The blade length is 15 5/8",and the wooden handle with the two screws simular to the posted photo.The markings are 1" below the hilt.
Mauser supplied many arms across the glode,and it be nice if the markings on that blade could be read.It would answer all questions.

 

[Retired Sarge]

True, all we can do right now is guess, until such time that any markings can be seen. Are you referring to this type, see link? All the Mauser scabbard's I've seen have a round, oval, or teardrop shaped button on the back of the scabbard. That button slips into the hole on the leather frog. The Arisaka scabbard has the ring/ridge up by the throat of the scabbard, when the scabbard is slipped into the leather frog, the strap loops through the ring on the scabbard to secure it. If you can find an example of what you are referring to I would be grateful.

I will admit I have not seen every bayonet combo out there, so I am bound to be wrong at times. All is good ECS, I see it as us having a healthy discussion on here.

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar...reglamentario-para-sable-bayoneta-antiguo-_JM

 

[ECS]

I looked at the frog link.No,thats not like the one I have at all,nor like the one in your posted photo.
Mine is light brown leather,simular to my 7.63 1936 Bolo Mauser holster,has 2 straps with adjustable buckles,has a slit in the frog sleeve to slip down upon the oval scabbard button.
The sleeve measures 4",overall length is 7 1/4",plus 4" to the first buckle hole(there are 4 holes in all)which create the loops to be used on a belt,and there is no hole in the leather back.
The thread stitching frog sleeve to the back appears to have been white,now it has a yellow tinge.
I also have a short sword with the Argentine crest,dated 1909-Weyersberg,Kirschbaum & Co.,Soligen.The metal scabbard has the teardrop style button you mentioned.
Yes,it is a good discussion.
Any suggestions how how he could free the bayonet from the scabbard.Someone once mentioned using heat,but I have never attempted that

 

[Retired Sarge]

He could use break free, liquid wrench or soak in oil, just like we do with our gun parts or nasty crudy guns we find every now and then. I think heat would distort or melt the scabbard. Once free of the scabbard, maybe take some 00 or 000 steel wool to clean any rust away from the blade and look for any markings. For the scabbard I would soak it in oil to finish cleaning it up. Once all clean wipe the blade and scabbard down with gun oil before putting away for storage.

Mike

 

[NOLA_Ken]

ffuries has it right, Arisaka type 30. You could use a heat gun to warm up the scabbard and try to get some oil into it, heating it will make the thinner metal expand a bit so you might be able to get it off. If you can do that there should be markings on the blade that could ID which arsenal made it. The tip off is the loop for the frog, and also looking at the hilt, it's got very flat edges, which I'd expect on a Japanese late war blade since their quality wend downhill as the war went on.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Duh, Nola_Ken, I didn't even think of a heat gun, my brain was stuck on a blow torch.

 

[ECS]

ffuries has it right, Arisaka type 30. You could use a heat gun to warm up the scabbard and try to get some oil into it, heating it will make the thinner metal expand a bit so you might be able to get it off. If you can do that there should be markings on the blade that could ID which arsenal made it. The tip off is the loop for the frog, and also looking at the hilt, it's got very flat edges, which I'd expect on a Japanese late war blade since their quality wend downhill as the war went on.
View attachment 637711View attachment 637710

Yes,I do believe he may be right!It appears to lack the ball quillan end found on most Mauser and Soligen manufactured bayonets.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Duh, Nola_Ken, I didn't even think of a heat gun, my brain was stuck on a blow torch.

Hehe yeah I get stuck on blowtorch sometimes too. A wise man once told me "never pound on something with a big wrench when a small one will get the job done"

 

[Retired Sarge]

Hehe yeah I get stuck on blowtorch sometimes too. A wise man once told me "never pound on something with a big wrench when a small one will get the job done"

Very wise words, got to remember them!