Bahamian salvage vessel

[Oceanscience]

Peter Throckmorton was working on a project for a Theme Park, in Nassau, Bahamas, exhibiting the maritime history of the Bahamas.

The "Wrecking Industry" played a very important part in the Bahamas history. With thousands of shipwrecks in shallow, crystal clear, warm water, this part of the history has left a valuable resource for the Tourism Industry that is today's most important revenue of the country.

Peter Trockmorton's plan was to develop the infrastructure and economical viability of an organization that would provide conservation for the artifacts, archaeological training and field schools, archaeological guides etc. for the development of a branch of the tourism industry directed at making use of this unique resource of easily accessible shipwrecks.

Something of that kind may be in the plans of the Bahamian Government today, we will have to wait and see what the rules and infrastructure for the sector are going to be.

For myself, I can not think of a better situation for field schools for Maritime Archaeology than the Bahamas. There are so many shipwrecks and the water is so clear that one can see the lobsters, crawling among the wreckage, 40 feet deep.

Diving on archaeological shipwreck sites could be a branch of tourism that would bring many millions of dollars income to the Bahamas.

The "Wrecking Theme Park" where the story of these shipwrecks would be told, could become an important source of revenue and of course jobs, too.

 

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[ScubaFinder]

Yes, with Bahamas already having the tourism and diving industries alive and well, there are huge opportunities for them in the wreck diving scene. A project I started in Belize might be a good example, even though we never got to finish it there.

There was an old treasure wreck that had been worked by Bob Marx in the 60's I believe. It was never identified, didn't have much treasure, and was in a fairly remote area. I'm leaving a few details out here to protect the innocent. Anyhow, long story short local fishermen were destroying the wreck and picking up the few remaining coins. The Belizean archaeologists wanted it stopped, but had no way to patrol the wreck in its current location. The plan was to carefully move the larger structures into a protected bay at an eco-tourism resort. All remaining artifacts would go into a museum at the resort. Concrete replica cannon and anchors were to be made, and the whole wreck would be recreated for tourists to enjoy. We even discussed breaking up modern blue and white china to scatter around, making replica coins and hiding them on the wreck, etc. In short, remove the evidence from the actual wreck location to protect it, and make a replica shipwreck accessible to recreational divers.

There are obvious problems with this plan, and it was never carried any further than a feasibility study. BUT, what if we took the site plan of the Maravilla and recreated the wreck site in front of a resort with fake artifacts right on top of the sand. Have a museum nearby with artifacts and the story, and a gift shop of course. There are still enough artifacts on that wreck to fill many museums. The cost and effort would be minimal for the wreck recreation...the museum if done properly would pay for itself. History buffs could get a glimpse of what is left of the magnificent galleon, Bahamians would get an economic boost, and archaeologists would have a hard time finding anything wrong with the plan.

Michael, I'll head up the project if you want...I'd be glad to help clean up some of the Maravilla debris. :-)

Jason

 

[Oceanscience]

There are thousands of shipwrecks in Bahamian waters. Most of them are in less than 40ft of water. Generations and generations of "Wreckers" have picked them clean and in more recent time at least 2 generations of diving lobster fishermen have continued picking up bits and pieces every year.

During WWII, many barge loads, thousands of tons, of cannon and all kinds of metal scrap were collected and shipped to Miami and from there to the foundries to make steel from the iron and shell casings with the bronze. (From personal conversations with the barge crews)

There are many, many ballast piles in the shallows without cannon and that is the reason why.

Yet, each one of these shipwrecks could still fulfill the dream of many tourist divers if they could take part of a guided archaeological investigation on it.

What looks like a simple heap of stones to the uninitiated, can still yield a lot of information, can still tell an exciting story if a knowing guide helps uncover the history that lies hidden beneath the waves.

Diving in the warm, crystal clear Bahamian waters is extremely enjoyable. Excavating an old shipwreck, even if it is not a treasure wreck, could be a dream come true for thousands of divers every year.

Amateur archaeology courses could be led by trained dive masters under the leadership of professional archaeologists. All in all hundreds, if not thousands, nationwide, of jobs could be created by such a project.

There are so many shipwrecks that it will take many, many years to just compile an inventory of the ones that are easily visible from the surface. The Bahamas cover a very large area of ocean, with many islands and many miles of coast line and reefs, all peppered with shipwrecks.

At the same time it is a region of easy access, very calm and well charted waters and a mild climate throughout the year. A divers and boaters paradise.

Today, GPS and electronic charts and good communications make the navigation and re-location of found shipwrecks easy.

None of these shipwrecks would pay for the fuel if you were working as a treasure hunter on it. But each one of these thousands of shipwrecks could provide a thousand very enjoyable dives, hundreds of artifacts and even the occasional silver or gold coin, just to make it more exciting.

Over time the recovered artifacts could help to illustrate the story of the ship, where it came from, where it was going to, it's cargo, crew and maybe passengers and how it got shipwrecked. This story is another attraction for the non diver tourists while they stroll through the wreckers museum.

On most of the shallow shipwrecks one can find charred timbers and molten metal. At first one thinks that many ships wrecked because of fire on board. After some research into the wrecking history, one learns that the wrecks were usually burned after salving everything salvageable. Then the rest was burned to get ahold of the the nails and pins and whatever piece of metal that could be collected.

So the wreckers left nothing behind?

The process of wrecking was always violent. Some ships and their cargo, were scattered over miles.
The sandy bottom swallowed anything made of metal. Other things were buried and preserved by the ballast when the ship was rolled over by the waves. Remember that this is a region where hurricanes and Northers, both violent storms have claimed many of the ships.

 

[Dell Winders]

The historical museum at Green Turtle cay, Abaco has just painted the basement, and cleared a land area to incorporate a shipwreck museum and a conservation area. A large stainless steel tank has been obtained to submerge artifacts until they can be properly preserved.

They are hoping to get a permit from the Government to recover shipwreck artifacts for the museum. I am suggesting locations where artifacts might be found, and hopefully they can also get exclusive permission to recover and document artifacts from the Bark, "Elijah Swift" shipwrecked at Great Issac, in 1848. I will provide them the exact location.

I have donated this Rudder Post, a rare one of a kind find from off S. Bimini, as well as a few small shipwreck artifacts from other areas of the Bahamas to help them get started.

I have 40 years of land & sea Treasure search & recovery experience in four countries. 10 years of underwater shipwreck experience was in the Bahamas. I am interested in helping the Bahamas, succeed in this new venture any way I can. Dell

 

[ScubaFinder]

Nice donations Dell. You've been to Green Turtle recently? Do you happen to know if Brendel still has his dive shop on Green Turtle? I'd like to talk with him next time I'm over that way, thanks!

Jason

 

[Dell Winders]

Here are a few fine examples for you Alexandre....since you continue to harass people and beat your antiquated and un-informed drum...I will oblige you with a little knowledge that you don't seem to want to see.

Robert Stenuit

Peter Throckmorton worked with us at NCR in the Dominican Republic on several shipwrecks. Dr. Bob Baer also worked with Jupiter Wreck, Inc. on the San Miguel de Archangel at Jupiter Inlet Florida.

If you need anything else, just let me know Alexandre...

Robert Sténuit I like, but although having written a lot in IJNA, he is no archaeologist, he is a treasure hunter. Bob Baer, who's he?

Peter is a shock. Did he really worked for treasure hunters?

Geroges Bass wrote "even today, I often use Peter's arguments against treasure hunting, which he was the first to articulate: small third-world nations can make far more money through proper archaeology and well designed maritime museums, because of increased tourism, than by any schemes to "split the gold" with treasure hunters"...

Robert Baer, has more than one degree in Archeology. His open minded approach to work with Treasure Hunters, has no doubt enriched his knowledge of Archeology, far beyond that which is taught in academia.

Dr. Baer, has accompanied me on several land explorations and wrote a report to the State about one Treasure site for me. As with other Treasure hunter/Salvors, Dr. Baer, has consulted with me, and solicited opinions based on my field experience.

Alexandre, would do well to follow the example of Dr. Robert Baer, Archaeologist. Dell

 

[Dell Winders]

Nice donations Dell. You've been to Green Turtle recently? Do you happen to know if Brendel still has his dive shop on Green Turtle? I'd like to talk with him next time I'm over that way, thanks!

Jason

No, I have never been to Green Turtle Cay, but I support Bahamians, and the Bahamas, in any way I can.

To me, the Bahamas, is home. It is my dream to be back there again. Dell

 

[ivan salis]

folks -- do you know how "fair and square" the archies that work for the state of florida are in their dealing with the treasure salvage world at large?

one thing that they were going "require" in a not so long ago change in the "salvage permit rules" was that you had to have a archie from a certain "state appoved" group to sign onto your project as the "overseer" * normally this is not a issue

however the "state approved" group that the archies insisted upon had just a short time before passed a by law -- which stated that any member of their group that worked for a "for profeit salvage group" would be "booted" out of their group --thus losing their standing *

so only folks that were "non profeit" could get one of those "state approved group" archies (and thus get salvage permits)

I caught on to this legal "catch 22" during the public comment stage of the rules changes and personally brought it up at the public hearing *** much to the dismay of the state slicksters --it is illegal to require a person to have "something" when , it is impossible for them to obtain it , as part of the conditions to get a "state permit" -- the state of florida archie dept was setting up a "impossible" standard to comply with.

thus legally speaking they going under these "new rules" if enacted to be "blocking" acess to the permits. (for which state can be sued ) as a state of florida tax payor -- I do not want my tax dollars spent on their stupidity by having paying off a salvors class action type lawsuit .

the state of florida as per the court settlement in the mel fisher caase is supposed to get up a "valid" permit issuing process as per the judges orders -- the judge was wise enought to know that the state and feds being POed about losing the case would try to get revenge by "blocking" any future work --and so he ordered them to set a permitting process -- which the state of florida has worked very hard ever since to turn into a "non permit issuing" process. --the record of permits issued / not issued over the years speaks for its self , as to the ill will the state has had over losing the court case with mel fisher and their feelings towards salvors in general .

the 1985 "abandoned ship wreck act" was the federal govt way of shutting the "federal maritime " courts doors to the treasure salvage world --the exact courts mel fisher won in --to insure it would not lose again - like the way mel fisher won in court.

 

[tarpon192]

Who really gives a flying fluck about the word or definition of the
bullcrap word or the insecure group of individuals that wish to even be classified
as "arkeologists!!!" Come on now girls this post started out with the title
"Bahamian Salvage Vessel".....

Want to see the latest edition to this undersea explorer's potential rides.......
Take a look.

The second photo is of our experienced akeological team....!

Dom that is great picture. Nothing like calling a spade a spade.

 

[ivan salis]

great vessel -- glad to see that the bahamas understands that the wrecks in their waters "belongs" to them -- to do as they wish to do with -- and not allow themselves to be "bullied"by others.

 

[tarpon192]

Typical - When will any of you "academical" types figure it out. If someone RESPONSIBLE doesn't recover the shipwreck artifacts, someone UNETHICAL will. Go to the Dominican Republic....they don't have to run mag surveys there....they just wait for a local diver or spear fisherman to start selling artifacts to tourists. Then they threaten him with prison if he doesn't show them where he got the coins. He shows them, and they either have Indiana U. or one of the many responsible treasure salvage companies go in and document the site and remove the artifacts to stop the looting.

The Bahamians understand this also...how many unscrupulous individuals have they caught just in the last year pillaging wrecks in their waters? Several that I know of, and probably several more that we don't know about. Legally permitted Treasure Hunters are NOT the plunderers, they are recovering the artifacts so they can be properly conserved, studied, photographed, and documented. Sure some of the artifacts get sold, but what would you guys prefer, fishermen raping wrecks and quietly selling to tourists, or Treasure hunters recording what data they can, turning everything over to archaeologists, and THEN selling to collectors?

Jason

Very well put.
Hey alexandre does this make cense - oh sorry "SENSE" to you?

 

[Oceanscience]

this is a Bahamian owned, operated, and flagged salvage vessel. Setting the standard high....she is a lovely sight

Nice blowers, I wonder what the accommodations are and for how many people?

How much does it cost to run it with full crew, the whole year? Maybe about US$ 1,000,000?

How does one pay that?

I mean, how does one generate enough revenue to compensate for this expense?

 

[Alexandre]

Nice blowers, I wonder what the accommodations are and for how many people?

How much does it cost to run it with full crew, the whole year? Maybe about US$ 1,000,000?

How does one pay that?

I mean, how does one generate enough revenue to compensate for this expense?

Having naif investors helps a lot...

 

[ScubaFinder]

Naive, or adventurous. It's no different than betting on a sport or gambling at a casino....it's just more fun!

 

[Alexandre]

Naive, or adventurous. It's no different than betting on a sport or gambling at a casino....it's just more fun!

That's waht PT Barnum once said.

 

[bahamamike]

I don't know who this is "Peter Throckmorton", but a lot of these ideas you have posted are already in our plans. I also wanted to say that the moratorium has been officially lifted. I will upload the necessary documents online and forward the links.

Peter Throckmorton was working on a project for a Theme Park, in Nassau, Bahamas, exhibiting the maritime history of the Bahamas.

The "Wrecking Industry" played a very important part in the Bahamas history. With thousands of shipwrecks in shallow, crystal clear, warm water, this part of the history has left a valuable resource for the Tourism Industry that is today's most important revenue of the country.

Peter Trockmorton's plan was to develop the infrastructure and economical viability of an organization that would provide conservation for the artifacts, archaeological training and field schools, archaeological guides etc. for the development of a branch of the tourism industry directed at making use of this unique resource of easily accessible shipwrecks.

Something of that kind may be in the plans of the Bahamian Government today, we will have to wait and see what the rules and infrastructure for the sector are going to be.

For myself, I can not think of a better situation for field schools for Maritime Archaeology than the Bahamas. There are so many shipwrecks and the water is so clear that one can see the lobsters, crawling among the wreckage, 40 feet deep.

Diving on archaeological shipwreck sites could be a branch of tourism that would bring many millions of dollars income to the Bahamas.

The "Wrecking Theme Park" where the story of these shipwrecks would be told, could become an important source of revenue and of course jobs, too.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I also wanted to say that the moratorium has been officially lifted. I will upload the necessary documents online and forward the links.

Great news Mike, thanks for all your hard work! Looking forward to meeting you in person soon.

 

[Oceanscience]

I don't know who this is "Peter Throckmorton", but a lot of these ideas you have posted are already in our plans. I also wanted to say that the moratorium has been officially lifted. I will upload the necessary documents online and forward the links.

Peter Throckmorton was working on a project for a Theme Park, in Nassau, Bahamas, exhibiting the maritime history of the Bahamas.

The "Wrecking Industry" played a very important part in the Bahamas history. With thousands of shipwrecks in shallow, crystal clear, warm water, this part of the history has left a valuable resource for the Tourism Industry that is today's most important revenue of the country.

Peter Trockmorton's plan was to develop the infrastructure and economical viability of an organization that would provide conservation for the artifacts, archaeological training and field schools, archaeological guides etc. for the development of a branch of the tourism industry directed at making use of this unique resource of easily accessible shipwrecks.

Something of that kind may be in the plans of the Bahamian Government today, we will have to wait and see what the rules and infrastructure for the sector are going to be.

For myself, I can not think of a better situation for field schools for Maritime Archaeology than the Bahamas. There are so many shipwrecks and the water is so clear that one can see the lobsters, crawling among the wreckage, 40 feet deep.

Diving on archaeological shipwreck sites could be a branch of tourism that would bring many millions of dollars income to the Bahamas.

The "Wrecking Theme Park" where the story of these shipwrecks would be told, could become an important source of revenue and of course jobs, too.

Peter Trockmorton was "The Grandfather of marine archaeology" he passed on over 20 years ago, while still working on the "Bahama Project" I talked a lot with him about his project and am glad to hear that similar ideas are in the plans.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Ocean Science, I'd LOVE to hear a transcript of those conversations, even if just from vague memories. I bet Peter had some incredible ideas.

I just hope I can help out somehow! :-) :-) :-)

 

[Oceanscience]

Ocean Science, I'd LOVE to hear a transcript of those conversations, even if just from vague memories. I bet Peter had some incredible ideas.

I just hope I can help out somehow! :-) :-) :-)

I had introduced Peter to the client who hired him as consultant. At that time I was an active treasure hunter. Peter often consulted with me to hear the treasure hunters angle, but he also was trying to design a project that made it possible for both sides to work together.
At that time the "Ivory Tower People" (ITP) were putting a lot of pressure on the Bahamian government, to stop all treasure hunting. It did happen.

What have the ITP done in these 22 years for the Bahamas?
How many jobs have they created?
How many of the thousands of shipwrecks have they located, analysed and excavated?
What have they done to improve the life of the Bahamian people?

The shipwrecks were a means for survival for the Bahamians for hundreds of years. These same shipwrecks can be the base of an industry that supplies hundreds if not thousands of jobs today.

It is the right of the Bahamians to chose how they want to use this resource.

Can you help?

I think we all can.

The Bahamian tourist industry is the mainstay of the economy. We have been tourists there in the past and we may be tourists there again in the future. In this sense, we can offer our ideas of how the shipwreck resource could be used to bring more tourists to the Bahamas.

Ideas are like seeds. If you keep working at them, they grow and develop. I am bringing some ideas in the hope that you and others bring some of their own and together we make the ideas grow into a business plan.

How about a Bahamas shipwreck web site as a starter?

How about a Bahamas shipwreck story blog? A collection of old and new stories? While writing this, I seem to remember some story about a "Great Isaac Massacre" does anybody else know about this?
Or the ghost story of the Elija Swift?

Or the many, many stories about treasure found in the Bahamas. I found a lot of these in the Nassau archives. Long forgotten, but digging them up again, they can become part of value added tourist attractions.
And yes, these treasure stories are all connected to shipwrecks, wreckers and pirates.

I wonder how accessible the archives are nowadays?

Where else could we search for archival information?

Old USA newspapers of the main east coast shipping harbors will carry the stories about the ships wrecking in the Bahamas.

I am sure there are many more sources of information available. How about adding all this information to the website?

There are a lot of stories that could be told for the entertainment of many avid listeners. Tourists love to hear stories about the places they visit.

Tourists also like to buy T shirts with artistic renderings of these stories. This is where we start converting stories into cash and jobs. Work for the artists, T shirt printers and sales people.

Can we come up with other examples of how the shipwrecks can boost the Bahamas economy?