Back Door Gun Control Moves Forward

Sorry but that particular comment struck me.

Dave, I could not agree more. The "I know you are but what am I" has completely consumed this forum lately. I would love nothing more than to move forward. Agreed?
I have always done that, you have always done that. But a new element of childishness has snuck into the forum that hasn't figured that out.. Wave after wave of attacks from old threads. We all handle things differently I suppose. But between you and I ==no prob.
 

In the recent past, several times I was referenced by others and told that they are "still waiting" for my reply. Then it was suggested, multiple times, that I was "in hiding".

Ben if I had seen it I would have posted. I read several hundred posts a day but can't read them all.

No one is required to reply...

We will NOT go quitely into the night!
 

Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto.

Approx 61 million dead in Russia since Communism was adopted. Ever wonder how the 43 million that died under Lenin alone felt about Marx?

We will NOT go quitely into the night!

I love the made up number bs...as if the facts are not to be found
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls


•Eckhardt: 500,000 civ. + 300,000 mil. = 800,000
•Readers Companion to Military History, Cowley and Parker, eds. (1996) [http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/mil/html/mh_045400_russiancivil.htm]: ◦Combat deaths: 825,000
◦Ancillary deaths: 2,000,000
◦TOTAL: 2,825,000

•Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998) ◦Civil War and Volga Famine (1918-22): 3,000,000 to 5,000,000

•Brzezinski, Z: ◦6 to 8 million people died under Lenin from war, famine etc.

•Mastering Twentieth Century Russian History by Norman Lowe (2002) ◦TOTAL: 7,000,000 to 10,000,000
◦Red Army ◾Battle: 632,000
◾Disease: 581,000

◦Whites: 1,290,000 battle + disease
◦White Terror: "tens of thousands"
◦Red Terror ◾Executed: 50-200,000
◾Died in prison or killed in revolts: 400,000

◦Typhoid + typhus ◾1919: 890,000
◾1920: >1M


•Urlanis: ◦Military deaths: 800,000 ◾Battle deaths, all sides: 300,000
◾Dead of wounds: 50,000
◾Disease: 450,000

◦Civilians: 8,000,000
◦TOTAL: 8,800,000

•Dyadkin, I.G. (cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993) ◦9 million unnatural deaths from terror, famine and disease, 1918-23

•Richard Pipes, A concise history of the Russian Revolution (1995): 9 million deaths, 1917-1922 ◦Famine: 5M
◦Combat: 2M ◾Reds: 1M
◾Whites: 127,000

◦Epidemics: 2M
◦not incl. ◾Emigration: 2M
◾Birth deficit: 14M


•Rummel: ◦Civil War (1917-22) ◾War: 1,410,000 (includes 500,000 civilian)
◾Famine: 5,000,000 (50% democidal)
◾Other democide: 784,000
◾Epidemics: 2,300,000
◾Total: 9,494,000

◦Lenin's Regime (1917-24) ◾Rummel blames Lenin for a lifetime total of 4,017,000 democides.


•Figes, Orlando (A People's Tragedy: A History of the Russian Revolution, 1997) ◦10 million deaths from war, terror, famine and disease. ◾Including... ◾Famine (1921-22): 5 million
◾Killed in fighting, both military and civilian: 1M
◾Jews killed in pogroms: 150,000

◾Not including... ◾Demographic effects of a hugely reduced birth-rate: 10M
◾Emmigration: 2M



•McEvedy, Colin (Atlas of World Population History, 1978) ◦War deaths: 2M
◦Other excess deaths: 14M
◦Reduced births: 10M
◦Emmigration: 2M

•MEDIAN: Of these ten estimates that claim to be complete, the median is 8.8M-9.0M.
•PARTIALS: ◦Small & Singer (battle deaths, 1917-21) ◾Russian Civil War (Dec.1917-Oct.1920) ◾Russians: 500,000
◾Allied Intervention: ◾Japan: 1,500
◾UK: 350
◾USA: 275
◾France: 50
◾Finland: 50


◾Russian Nationalities War (Dec.1917-Mar.1921) ◾USSR: 50,000


◦Bruce Lincoln, Red Victory: a History of the Russian Civil War 1918-1921 ◾Death sentences by the Cheka: ca. 100,000
◾Pogroms: as many as one in 13 Jews k. out of 1.5M in Ukraine [i.e. ca. 115,000] (citing Heifetz)

◦Nevins, citing Heifetz and the Red Cross: 120,000 Jews killed in 1919 pogroms [http://www.west.net/~jazz/felshtin/redcross.html]
◦Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): Cheka responsible for maybe 250,000+ violent deaths.
◦Paul Johnson ◾50,000 death sentences imposed by the Cheka by 12/20
◾100,000 Jews killed in 1919

◦Green, Barbara (in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) ◾4 to 5 million deaths in the famine of 1921-23

◦Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace ◾North Russia: 244 USAns d. incl. 144 k.battle
◾Siberia: 160 USAns KIA + 168 other d.
◾[US Total: 304 KIA + 268 other = 572 d.]
◾Czech Legion: 13,000 dead.
 

•There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
•Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school: ◦Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these: ◾Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
◾Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
◾Gold, John.: 50-60 million.

◦Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
◦Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago, ◾Intro to Perennial Classics Edition by Edward Ericson: Solzhenitsyn publicized an estimate of 60 million. Aleksandr Yakovlev estimates perhaps 35 million.
◾Page 178: citing Kurganov, 66 million lives lost between 1917 and 1959

◦Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into: ◾1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
◾1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
◾1939-45: 18,157,000
◾1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
◾TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine

◦William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
◦Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38) ◾Cited by Wallechinsky: ◾Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
◾Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.


◦MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.

•And from the Lower Numbers school: ◦Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
◦Cited in Nove: ◾Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
◾Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
◾Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
◾Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.

◦Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
◦Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
◦MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.

•As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
•Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity: ◦In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
◦Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
◦Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
◦Daniel Chirot: ◾"Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
◾"Highest": 40M
◾Citing: ◾Conquest: 20M
◾Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
◾Medvedev: 40M


◦Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91. ◾Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
◾[Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse, Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]

◦John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl. ◾Kulaks: 7M
◾Gulag: 12M
◾Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)

◦Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
◦Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
◦Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.

•AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
•Individual Gulags etc. ◦Kolyma
◦Kuropaty
◦Vorkuta
◦Bykivnia

•Comments received: Letter #1 Letter #2 Letter #3
•Famine of 1926-38, including the Holodomor: [make link] ◦Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 4.2M in Ukraine + 1.7M in Kazakhstan
◦Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine: ◾Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
◾Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
◾Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
◾Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
◾Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
◾Conquest: ◾Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
◾1932-33: 7M
◾Ukraine: 5M
 

So Pip... The problem is the #s? That is another example of "can't win the argument, dispute the little points". Sad really. Millions dead, by your own reckoning. I do hope the famines created by the Communists taking land from farmers and giving it to party members were a part of your computations, and you are not trying to disqualify them? But it doesn't matter, are you trying to defend them?
 

So Pip... The problem is the #s? That is another example of "can't win the argument, dispute the little points". Sad really. Millions dead, by your own reckoning. I do hope the famines created by the Communists taking land from farmers and giving it to party members were a part of your computations, and you are not trying to disqualify them? But it doesn't matter, are you trying to defend them?

WOW...20 million or 60 million.

WOW only 20 million dead by some quotes, heck he was a saint....

We will NOT go quitely into the night!
 

oh...forgot...when you guys post something...the facts don't mean a thing...especially if they interfere with the rant someone is pushing.
 

oh...forgot...when you guys post something...the facts don't mean a thing...especially if they interfere with the rant someone is pushing.

Pip it depends on what report you read, I can post a lot of links that says 60 million, if you want to say 20 million go with 20 million if it makes it you feel better.

Lenin only killed 20 million people, he has been so unfairly judged by history....

We will NOT go quitely into the night!
 

oh...forgot...when you guys post something...the facts don't mean a thing...especially if they interfere with the rant someone is pushing.

Ok You did state the #s were subjective didn't you? But why are you arguing the small point of how many millions are killed in these glorious takeovers? Does it help your argument in anyway by measuring the gallons of blood spilled? There is a bigger argument in that post.
 

Yup,pay strict attention to JBs imaginary debunking posts.An easy system is to just go opposite of anything a lib says.

How about what Sierra bullets has to say?

Sierra Responds: How Will the Closure of the Lead Smelting Plant Affect Sierra Bullets? | Sierra Bullets

We have had many customers contact us about the closing of the last primary lead smelting facility in the USA. This facility is operated by Doe Run and is located in Herculaneum, MO and is just about a 3 hour drive from our facility in Sedalia, MO.

The main question asked is “Will this shut down your supply of lead.” The answer to that is no. First, Sierra buys lead from several different vendors to maintain constant supply. Second, this facility only smelts primary lead or lead ore. This is lead ore that has just been brought out of the earth. Sierra uses no primary lead at all and never has, so we use nothing directly from this facility. The lead we buy from Doe Run comes from their recycling facility in Boss, MO that is about 90 miles away from the smelter that is closing.
The facility we buy from is still going strong and delivering to us as scheduled. The lead from this facility is from recycled lead, mostly coming from car batteries. This is a continuing “in and out” cycle for them and the smelter closing will not affect this facility.
Our supply should not be in jeopardy and we do not anticipate any changes in our supply chain at this time. Could the lack of primary lead create a little more demand for recycled lead? Sure, but how much is unknown. Could this increase in demand also create an increase in price? Sure, but again, by how much is unknown at this time.
There are many other primary lead smelters in the world and so the flow of primary lead will not be shut off. Where there is a need for primary lead, I am sure there will be a salesman more than happy to pick up the business.
In short, we do not see any reason for alarm. We expect our supply to continue and keep feeding our production lines which are still running 24 hours per day to return our inventory levels to where they should be.
 

My bad - I stuck to the thread ..................... won't happen again .............
 

We can always mine the Senate they have more lead in their a$$ they we will ever need. Oh! then we can start on all the lib's we know:laughing7:
 

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