Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

My first thought when I saw Somehiker's head picture, was Olmec. It does not look Aztec.......at all. My opinion and five bucks will get you a mediocre cup of coffee.

Somehiker,

Was there a writeup that accompanied that picture?

Thanks,

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[Old Dog]

Everyone,

Some of my childhood was spent around the craftsmen who made this kind of thing.
The Squash Blossom is a firtility symbol,
and yes they are shown on your necklace as you pictured it.

Thom

 

[somehiker]

Oro--feel free to use the photo
as I recall,I downloaded it from one of the many sites that link to museum exhibits,while looking for info on aztec,maya,mixtec,and yes Joe--Olmec artifacts.I believe that it was identified as aztec or at least was part of a group of aztec figurines found at a particular site but didn't include any other details.I don't have a link for the particular page it came from,but I'll have another look later and post it if I can find it.The Olmec heads share similar full face features but the ones that I've seen so far don't have any hair adornments and are of course much larger than this clay figurine head.The object on the top of the head with the whorls might be a stylized representation of an additional adornment,a local modification of the style perhaps.
Tedious reading, but worth the effort are the reports from this site.
http://azmemory.lib.az.us/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=/medallion
These as well as others now being published online contain a lot of good info related to cultural exchange and assimilation.Older reports from the 1890 to 1920 period can even include passages,as yet unexpunged mentioning finds by archaeologists of
small gold artifacts in early digs in the southwest.The site linked above,for example,has many placenames and names of authors which can be searched for access to dig inventories and other such info.
As a comment regarding the aztec exodus and population growth of Tenochtitlan,is it not possible that the lure of the big city could have been a factor? Communication may have been faster than surmised by historians who seem to forget how fast and far that messages and news could be carried by runners,for example.
Regards:SH

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro--feel free to use the photo
as I recall,I downloaded it from one of the many sites that link to museum exhibits,while looking for info on aztec,maya,mixtec,and yes Joe--Olmec artifacts.I believe that it was identified as aztec or at least was part of a group of aztec figurines found at a particular site but didn't include any other details.I don't have a link for the particular page it came from,but I'll have another look later and post it if I can find it.The Olmec heads share similar full face features but the ones that I've seen so far don't have any hair adornments and are of course much larger than this clay figurine head.The object on the top of the head with the whorls might be a stylized representation of an additional adornment,a local modification of the style perhaps.
Tedious reading, but worth the effort are the reports from this site.
http://azmemory.lib.az.us/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=/medallion
These as well as others now being published online contain a lot of good info related to cultural exchange and assimilation.Older reports from the 1890 to 1920 period can even include passages,as yet unexpunged mentioning finds by archaeologists of
small gold artifacts in early digs in the southwest.The site linked above,for example,has many placenames and names of authors which can be searched for access to dig inventories and other such info.
As a comment regarding the aztec exodus and population growth of Tenochtitlan,is it not possible that the lure of the big city could have been a factor? Communication may have been faster than surmised by historians who seem to forget how fast and far that messages and news could be carried by runners,for example.
Regards:SH

Thanks for the link somehiker! There's so many websites like that now - it's just wonderful to be able to have access to older reasearch papers and books without having to find them used online somewhere to purchase!

Looks like I have YET MORE reading to do

 

[Highmountain]

A few days ago someone brought up the possibility of Olmec, Incan and other ancients further south as an origin for the Aztec. Later discussions about the possibilities of a far higher level of communications than is normally believed to have existed in the Americas.

This got me thinking about the Nazca Plains airviews, then about whether our own [US] elaborate ruin complexes might show signs of similar intent to create visual impressions from above. I won't claim that was the intent, but there's certainly a possibility the ancients in the southwestern US were acutely aware of how their work would appear from the sky.

 

[Highmountain]

HOLA amigos,

Thank you Somehiker, it is quite a photo and I think I could use it for an un-related project. I owe you one! Thom just wanted to say I love that one too! Now if only I could afford that kind of jewelry...!

That is an interesting idea to explore Highmountain, in particular the second photo is a bit puzzling. The shape resembles a couple of ancient letters, or a modern 'Q'. I know the 'standard' explanation for why a people with no ability to fly would bother to create images visible or discernible only from the sky is related to "spirit walking/flying' but I wonder what the truth is.

Highmountain, back to your original theory of a Mound-builder origin for Aztecs, what about cultural practices such as the Amerindian ball game? This was brought up in another thread but do you know whether any ball courts have been found in Mound-builder sites? (Or anyone reading this, the same question?) I was surprised to learn that a US-located culture had ball courts, the Hohokam, though they were different in style from those of the Aztecs or Mayans, the mere fact that they had ball courts is suggestive of something. Also what about sea-going canoes? I recently learned of the discovery of a huge sea-going canoe in Florida, some 45 feet long; did the Aztecs have any large canoes like this? What abut the Mound-builders? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

No mention of ball courts among them, though the Hohokam built both ball courts and pyramids.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002130.html
http://snipurl.com/283ul [www_infoplease_com]

http://history-world.org/Civilizations Of The Americas.htm
http://snipurl.com/283ur [history-world_org]

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0002130.html
http://snipurl.com/283ux [www_factmonster_com]

This one says yes, ball courts during the Mississippian Period

http://www.avoca.k12.il.us/os/mariemurphy/moundbuilders/chronologicalgraph.html
http://snipurl.com/283v0 [www_avoca_k12_il_us]

Canoes - Evidently they had them, though it's unclear as to the size and the seaworthiness. I once found a Karankawan war canoe buried mostly in the sand of Vandivere Island peninsula, San Antonio Bay, Texas perfectly intact and waterlogged. It measured over 40 feet [pacing]. Although it was on the inland side of the bay, it had to go through some troubled waters to get where it was, and I guessed at the time it probably wouldn't have feared venturing onto the gulf side. Even so, I'd hate to have been in it when it did.

That canoe was built in a way that rendered unsinkable and indestructable for all practical purposes. Although it most likely had a deep draft because of the weight, it also had high sides and a deep interior coming up to the ribcages of the people sitting in it. It might have swamped and it might have capsized, but I can't concieve a battering by the sea it couldn't take and survive without a lot of damage.

[Not to suggest Kronks had anything to do with Mound Builders ----hmmm, though an argument in favor of it comes to mind. Kronks were BIG folk, as were a lot of Mound Builders. Might have been the poor kinfolk and Green Lake the Mound Builder equivalent of a mobile-home park - Edit: for those who aren't familiar with Kronks, they might have been the most savage Native Americans in existence in North America. Cannibals, to top it off. All the other tribes hated them and when whites came along they agreed. The last of them were exterminated by a combined force of Texans and Tonks ... seems to me it was during the Texas Republic years, maybe around the same time a combined force of Texans and Comanche obliterated all the remaining Lipan Apache.].

Came across some other pieces of the Mound Builder/Aztec coincidence while looking.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

The oldest mound builders in the Americas, are probably the Chaven Culture. They are, likely, also the perp's who built the first ball courts.

Considering the proximity, it's a little surprising that, to my knowledge, no ball court was found in Caral. Perhaps that is because they did not seem to have participated in any kind of warfare.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Highmountain]

Site with some interesting conjecture about Aztec seafaring. Probably as accurate as a lot of other info other on the web about history, though sifting the wheat from the chaff would be a major job of work.

http://hope-of-israel.org/aztec.htm
http://snipurl.com/284hd [hope-of-israel_org]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Fascinating reading Hi MT. So they came from Aztlantis, the stepping stone on their checkered migration to the new world and eventually to Tenochtitlan. Hmmmmmm

Our friend from South America would love this semi-verification of our Hero ORO.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

The aztecs did build and use for transportation some rather large and stout canoes.These included vessels used in both inland and and along coastal waters,some of which could carry as many as 12 to 14 paddlers.Aztecs acted as guides and sailed one such canoe (at the head of the fleet as I recall) when Pedro de Alvarado set sail from Guatemala for Peru in 1533 or 1534,depending on the account given.The Maya also employed coastal watercraft,in fact an account by Columbus described a boat "as big as a galley" and the Yucatan coast has ruins of Maya lighthouses.Damn,I had a link to this document but it now redirects to a travel website. The Haida of British Columbia used such sea-going canoes.They and other west coast tribes hunted whales in the open ocean by canoe as well.
Another site mentions even earlier use by migratory peoples..http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2007/02/have_we_underes.html
I find little reason to doubt the possibility that both Mayan and Aztec explorers,traders and possibly raiders may have used the coastal waters to travel both north and south.I also doubt that the Mississippians,while building such massive complexes and living on a major waterway,would have isolated themselves to their own backyards.One only needs to examine the imaginative and complex art of all these people,not to mention their architecture in order to agree that this is a possibility.
..SH.

 

[Highmountain]

Fascinating reading Hi MT. So they came from Aztlantis, the stepping stone on their checkered migration to the new world and eventually to Tenochtitlan. Hmmmmmm

Our friend from South America would love this semi-verification of our Hero ORO.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Glad the link was helpful
J

 

[Highmountain]

Thank you for the links amigo, interesting reading! I had a thought (it does happen, however rarely ) concerning the migration of the Aztecs; since this thread was begun with an eye to examine the idea of the Aztecs being descendants of the Mound-builders, and the Aztec myth of their origin includes departing an island to cross to their "promised land" of central Mexico - suppose they had large sea-going canoes, and used them to leave "Turtle Island" which is what several Amerindian tribes called North America, crossing the Gulf to central Mexico? If they believed the middle of the continent was an "island" and not connected to Mexico, the logical route would be to cross the Gulf right? People have made similar mistakes about geography in the past, we need only look to the many maps which were made depicting California as an "island" lying off the west coast of the continent, separated by the "Strait of Anian" - so is it not possible that early Aztecs/Mexicas could have held a somewhat similar MIS-conception about the geography of North America? Just speculating, I would appreciate your views. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Oro: Just my view. Them 'not knowing' seems a stretch. There's been obsidian recovered from Chichen Itza and other Mayan ruins that had its origin at Bandera and Obsidian Ridge near the Valle Grande caldera in northern New Mexico. Similar obsidian has been found in Michigan and Oregon. It's assumed the obsidian, among the best in the Americas for knapping, reached those widely separated places by trade among the tribes.

To me it seems almost a given they'd also trade in gossip, geographic and possibly celestial information, pottery and weaving techniques, just about the entire spectrum of human discourse, same as people are hungry for news today.

I lean to the believe that, where the Aztecs might have come from, they knew before they ever left that place where they were going and how they were going to get there in every way they needed or wanted to know. Probably also knew what sort of folk would be their neighbors.

Sea-going canoes probably were around, along with the techniques for building them, among all the tribes near big water. The Kronk canoe I described a couple of posts ago was constructed by one of the most primitive tribes in North America, and it was a good one, showed a high level of skill and craftsmanship, as well as a good understanding of what makes for seaworthiness. Despite the weight it was easy to see it was a fast mover, in addition to everything else.

Main problem for primitive seagoing people was probably fresh water. Even the British Navy during the Napoleanic Wars had frequent incidents of disasters, or near disasters with discovering their drinking water had taken on brine. A gallon of fresh water per person per day's the requirement over any sustained time, and reliable sources for it anywhere on the Gulf Coast wouldn't have been all that easy to find. The whole coast is a constant flux between fresh water coming out, tides pushing salt-water contamination into it, fresh-water pushing it out, even in the river deltas.

The Pacific Islanders carried coconuts instead of water for the simple reason the milk couldn't be contaminated by salt water. If the Aztec originated in the Carib, or possibly Florida, probably they did the same for long journeys at sea.

Just meandering. Sorry
Jack

Obsidian from Obsidian Ridge/Grand Caldera and ancient trade

http://www.swxrflab.net/jemez.htm
http://snipurl.com/28730 [www_swxrflab_net]

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/st-plains/prehistory/images/distant.html
http://snipurl.com/28732 [www_texasbeyondhistory_net]

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/pecos/cris/chap9.htm
http://snipurl.com/28735 [www_nps_gov]

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~tompris/Archaeology.htm
http://snipurl.com/28737 [internet_cybermesa_com]

http://www.obsidianlab.com/universe.html
http://snipurl.com/2873a [www_obsidianlab_com]

http://www.swxrflab.net/jemez.htm#Canovas_Canyon_Rhyolite_and_Bear_Springs_Peak
http://snipurl.com/2873s [www_swxrflab_net]

Seafaring

Mayan:
http://dallasmuseumofart.org/Dallas_Museum_of_Art/View/Collections/Ancient_American/index.htm
http://snipurl.com/2873t [dallasmuseumofart_org]

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/ANDREWS1.ART
http://snipurl.com/2873w [www_millersville_edu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunchucmil
http://snipurl.com/2873y [en_wikipedia_org]

Ancient seafarers in SW US
http://www.rain.org/campinternet/southwest/ancient-peoples.html
http://snipurl.com/28740 [www_rain_org]

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9060169/pirogue
http://snipurl.com/28744 [www_britannica_com]

Mound Builders, Trade etc

Aztlan, Wisconsin
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/centerindiansc.html
http://snipurl.com/2878g [www_burlingtonnews_net]

http://www.essortment.com/all/moundbuilders_rdcx.htm
http://snipurl.com/2878i [www_essortment_com]

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:Ancient_Civilizations/Mound_Builders
http://snipurl.com/2878n [en_wikibooks_org]

http://www.greatdreams.com/mounds.htm
http://snipurl.com/2878r [www_greatdreams_com]

http://www.watertown.k12.ma.us/cunniff/americanhistorycentral/01firstamericans/The_Moundbuild.html
http://snipurl.com/2878v [www_watertown_k12_ma_us]

http://ngeorgia.com/history/early.html
http://snipurl.com/2878x [ngeorgia_com]


Speculative appearance:

http://eurekamin.com.au/news.php?newsid=EElluFpAkFtyOcsJDy
http://snipurl.com/2878y [eurekamin_com_au]

 

[Zephyr]

Canoes - Evidently they had them, though it's unclear as to the size and the seaworthiness. I once found a Karankawan war canoe buried mostly in the sand of Vandivere Island peninsula, San Antonio Bay, Texas perfectly intact and waterlogged. It measured over 40 feet [pacing]. Although it was on the inland side of the bay, it had to go through some troubled waters to get where it was, and I guessed at the time it probably wouldn't have feared venturing onto the gulf side. Even so, I'd hate to have been in it when it did.

That canoe was built in a way that rendered unsinkable and indestructable for all practical purposes. Although it most likely had a deep draft because of the weight, it also had high sides and a deep interior coming up to the ribcages of the people sitting in it. It might have swamped and it might have capsized, but I can't concieve a battering by the sea it couldn't take and survive without a lot of damage.

Ran across some interesting comments on an archeaology forum discussing a similar canoe.
(News article)
http://thecrit.com/2008/05/06/45-foot-ancient-canoe-stuck-in-the-muck/

What if it's only half of the boat?
Have 2 of them side by side, connected with a platform, and you get a catamaran. Even more seaworthy, more cargo capacity, hence longer range.
We moderns so underestimate the capabilities of people thousands of years ago....

 

[Highmountain]

Canoes - Evidently they had them, though it's unclear as to the size and the seaworthiness. I once found a Karankawan war canoe buried mostly in the sand of Vandivere Island peninsula, San Antonio Bay, Texas perfectly intact and waterlogged. It measured over 40 feet [pacing]. Although it was on the inland side of the bay, it had to go through some troubled waters to get where it was, and I guessed at the time it probably wouldn't have feared venturing onto the gulf side. Even so, I'd hate to have been in it when it did.

That canoe was built in a way that rendered unsinkable and indestructable for all practical purposes. Although it most likely had a deep draft because of the weight, it also had high sides and a deep interior coming up to the ribcages of the people sitting in it. It might have swamped and it might have capsized, but I can't concieve a battering by the sea it couldn't take and survive without a lot of damage.

Ran across some interesting comments on an archeaology forum discussing a similar canoe.
(News article)
http://thecrit.com/2008/05/06/45-foot-ancient-canoe-stuck-in-the-muck/

What if it's only half of the boat?
Have 2 of them side by side, connected with a platform, and you get a catamaran. Even more seaworthy, more cargo capacity, hence longer range.
We moderns so underestimate the capabilities of people thousands of years ago....

We do tend to treat our ancestors as though they were stupid in a lot of our thinking processes. Habit and arrogance, I expect.

I didn't have the impression the canoe I found was half a catamaran, but anything's possible. Everything I've ever witnessed about the work of ancient human beings has given me more, rather than less, respect for their craftsmanship, innovative thought processes, engineering abilities and intelligence. [On the other hand, everything I've ever witnessed about them as also given me less, rather than more respect for their cultures and religious/spiritual belief systems and their ability to peacefully co-exist with their neighbors, inside or outside their own tribal units]

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI PEEPS: Since I am the devils advocate, show me where this could not be true,, or at least as possible as any theory so far presented. It also could tend to explain our / my hero ORO's theories on Trans-atlantic contacs and trade. Thanks to a lead furnished by my friend Hi Mountain.

Since it took me 12 sec to whip up, please do not comment on my Cartographic abilities snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha El pesto

p.s. Having to live up to my reputation as posted by My buddy ORO --> " not as in romantic-huggy-kissy, REAL DE TAYOPA! Sheesh you really are a romantic" gals

 

[Cynangyl]

Definitely some great ideas to explore here. Thanks so much for the reading material High Mountain!

Interesting map there....will definitely need to contemplate that a bit. Thanks for sharing it with me as well as the links that our friend posted!

 

[Highmountain]

Definitely some great ideas to explore here. Thanks so much for the reading material High Mountain!

Interesting map there....will definitely need to contemplate that a bit. Thanks for sharing it with me as well as the links that our friend posted!

Thanks Cynangyl: It's definitely an intriguing subject and a pleasure to pursue and research. I hold the suspicion we're a long way from solving the mystery, but chasing it's turning over a lot of rocks I'd never given much thought to in the past.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Highmountain]

HI PEEPS: Since I am the devils advocate, show me where this could not be true,, or at least as possible as any theory so far presented. It also could tend to explain our / my hero ORO's theories on Trans-atlantic contacs and trade. Thanks to a lead furnished by my friend Hi Mountain.

Since it took me 12 sec to whip up, please do not comment on my Cartographic abilities snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha El pesto

p.s. Having to live up to my reputation as posted by My buddy ORO --> " not as in romantic-huggy-kissy, REAL DE TAYOPA! Sheesh you really are a romantic" gals

Seems to me the challenge isn't to come up with another conjecture to stack on top of the mile-high pile already out there. The challenge is to use some fresh method, maybe by tracing whomever you believe the descendants might be, backward, decide where you think it was, and look for evidence something was there above the water level at one time or another. The Atlantic Ocean floor's been measured upside down and sidewise and building a case for your theory [if it's a good one] shouldn't be that difficult.

Just my thinking
Jack


The Mid-Atlantic Ridge system
http://www.hartrao.ac.za/geodesy/tectonics.html
http://snipurl.com/288if [www_hartrao_ac_za]

http://www.wonderquest.com/AtlanticWidening.htm
http://snipurl.com/288i8 [www_wonderquest_com]

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/dynamic.html
http://snipurl.com/288ij [pubs_usgs_gov]

http://www.ign.fr/fr/PI/activites/geodesie/DORIS/index-en.html#tectonique
http://snipurl.com/288ik [www_ign_fr]

http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/condrift.html
http://snipurl.com/288ip [rockhoundingar_com]

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~soper/Earth/tectonics.html
http://snipurl.com/288iv [zebu_uoregon_edu]

http://museum.gov.ns.ca/fossils/geol/globe.htm
http://snipurl.com/288j3 [museum_gov_ns_ca]

 

[Highmountain]

It actually looks a good bit more promising than I expected.

I think you might actually pull this off if there's anything to it, Jose.

Good luck
Jack

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/understanding.html
http://snipurl.com/288yj [pubs_usgs_gov]

http://sp.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/refs/118/1/169
http://snipurl.com/288yl [sp_lyellcollection_org]

http://geology.com/nsta/divergent-plate-boundaries.shtml
http://snipurl.com/288yp [geology_com]

http://www.nnvl.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/in...001+Regional+Imagery&event=Mid-Atlantic+Ridge
http://snipurl.com/288ys [www_nnvl_noaa_gov]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v423/n6939/full/nature01594.html
http://snipurl.com/288yx [www_nature_com]

Mid Atlantic Ridge Topo Grids and other data:

http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/acoustics/seismicity/mar/mar_seis.html
http://snipurl.com/289de [www_pmel_noaa_gov]

http://ocean-ridge.ldeo.columbia.edu/n_mar/html/grids.html
http://snipurl.com/289dc [ocean-ridge_ldeo_columbia_edu]

http://ocean-ridge.ldeo.columbia.ed...+-iimag_gif+-pimag_ps+-hgmt_hdf+-chax16.ct+-C
http://snipurl.com/289d6 [ocean-ridge_ldeo_columbia_edu]

http://ocean-ridge.ldeo.columbia.ed...Pnav/nav_ps+-Gnav/nav_gif+-Cnav/nav_txt+-W26N
http://snipurl.com/289d5 [ocean-ridge_ldeo_columbia_edu]

http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/LIB/socpubs/wwwref2000.php
http://snipurl.com/289cy [www_soc_soton_ac_uk]

Not much help, but interesting

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/07/0712_wiredeepseacity.html
http://snipurl.com/289cs [news_nationalgeographic_com]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/07/0712_wiredeepseacity_2.html
http://snipurl.com/289cu [news_nationalgeographic_com]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070426145029.htm
http://snipurl.com/289cr [www_sciencedaily_com]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon HI MTmy friend: I will submit the following as the basis for AZtlantis having existed and still existing below the Atlantic exactly where it is supposed to be.. First Plato's description--?

A) 'At the centre of the island, near the sea, was a plain, said to be the most beautiful and fertile of all plains, and near the middle of this plain about fifty stades inland a hill of no great size... There were two rings of land and three of sea, like cartwheels, with the island at their centre and equidistant from each other... in the centre was a shrine sacred to Poseidon and Cleito, surrounded by a golden wall through which entry was fobidden...

There was a temple to Poseidon himself, a stade in length, three hundred feet wide, and proportionate in height, though somewhat outlandish in appearance. The outside of it was covered all over in silver, except for the figures on the pediment which were covered with gold... Round the temple were statues of all the original ten kings and their wives, and many others dedicated by kings and private persons belonging to the city and its dominions

Here seperate accommodation was provided for royalty and commoners, and, again, for women, for horses, and for other beasts of burden... The outflow they led into the grove of Poseidon, which (because of the goodness of the soil) was full of trees of marvellous beauty and height, and ---- also channelled it to the outer ring-islands by aquaducts at the bridges

On each of these ring islands they had built many temples for different gods, and many gardens and areas for exercise, some for men and some for horses... Finally, there were dockyards full of triremes and their equipment, all in good shape...'

'Beyond the three outer harbours there was a wall, beginning at the sea and running right round in a circle, at a uniform distance of fifty stades from the largest ring and harbour and returning in on itself at the mouth of the canal to the sea. This wall was densely built up all round with houses and the canal and the large harbour were crowded with vast numbers of merchant ships from all quarters, from which rose a constant din of shouting and noise day and night.'


B) You do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city [Athens] are descended from a seed or remnant of them which survived.
"The power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar]: the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands...Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island, and several others, and over parts of the continent, and furthermore the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Hercules as far as Egypt and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [Italy]."
- Plato, Timaeus, 22c-23c; 24c-dThe myth of Atlantis was first described by Plato (427-347 BCE), citing his source as Solon (615-545 BCE), a politician and poet who did a lot of traveling. Solon apparently got his information from Egypt. The Egyptian priests informed Solon that around 9570 BCE, there was already a great civilization at Athens that the present Greeks have already forgotten. The society was ruled by warriors who loved the simple, communal lifestyle and had no interest in great wealth. They had been able to defend the city against the island continent of Atlantis, which lay west beyond the Pillars of Heracles (Straits of Gibraltar) and was ruled by a coalition of kings descended from the sea god, Poseidon, and whose chief king was Poseidon's son, Atlas.

The Atlanteans were at one point almost godlike in their purity of heart, but they became greedy and corrupt over time. They ruled an empire stretching as far as central Italy in Europe to the borders of Egypt in Africa, but grew even greedier and sought to conquer the Athenians, but were defeated. As the war ended, the gods decided to punish the Atlanteans for their pride, and over the course of a day and a night, violent earthquakes and floods swept the island and destroyed it.

The account Plato gives in Critias describes the Atlantean society. The island had virtually everything the Altanteans needed to remain self sufficient from fresh water, abundance in metal ores, luxuriant vegetation, and animals including elephants. As a result, the kings of Atlantis were quite wealthy. Each had its own royal city, but the greatest city was that ruled by the descendents of Atlas

C)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These references will do for a starter.

1) We have a Large Island surrounded by volcanos / islands which is composed of a large plain and in it's center there is a large mountain.

2) This island, by coincidence, lies almost exactly on the conflux of the North American, South American, African and Euroasian plates, a region where violent earth movements can and do take place, also intense themal activity..

3) Examining the ocean floor we find just such a configuration existing, precisely where it should be - hmm

see accompanying photo #1

You will notice a large underwater land mass consisting of a circular plain surrounded by a circular groups of mts / islands with 3 entrances by water, exactly as stated and required to fit the description..

The surrounding Islands were volcanic in nature and possibly modulated the climate due to the proximity of the 4 main plates and their faults.

Frankly, because of the above, simple logic would confirm that this IS Aztlantis.

More later converts.©@

Don Jose de La Mancha