Archaeology vs Metal Detecting

[Drache]

MD Dog,

Science for the most part only sees religion as an aside to human evolution, something to be studied academically as a curiosity. Therefore it is hard for a scientist to realize what an impact their "study of burials" has on the spiritual feelings of a culture.

As far as the grave (tomb) robbing goes I believe that is exactly what any ancient Pharoah would have called the taking of mummys and the carting off of their possessions meant for their afterlife, to be displayed in museums and private collections all over the world. The fact that it was done in the name of science would not have made it any less of an outrage to them.

Goodyguy~

I agree with you on looting the tombs of Pharaoh's as grave robbing but when you put it side by side with the guys looting the tombs just for the money factor and burning the mummy's for warmth while looting, I would side with an archie in that respect. IF those tombs could be kept in perfect shape and guarded then I'm all for that although I do think that an archie could go INTO a tomb to study without disturbing.

 

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[Likely Guy]

MD Dog,

Science for the most part only sees religion as an aside to human evolution, something to be studied academically as a curiosity. Therefore it is hard for a scientist to realize what an impact their "study of burials" has on the spiritual feelings of a culture.

As far as the grave (tomb) robbing goes I believe that is exactly what any ancient Pharoah would have called the taking of mummys and the carting off of their possessions meant for their afterlife, to be displayed in museums and private collections all over the world. The fact that it was done in the name of science would not have made it any less of an outrage to them.

Goodyguy~

I agree with you on looting the tombs of Pharaoh's as grave robbing but when you put it side by side with the guys looting the tombs just for the money factor and burning the mummy's for warmth while looting, I would side with an archie in that respect. IF those tombs could be kept in perfect shape and guarded then I'm all for that although I do think that an archie could go INTO a tomb to study without disturbing.

The guys (looters) you're refering to Drache were some of the first 'archies'. Archaeology was an infant science at the time.

 

[Drache]

MD Dog,

Science for the most part only sees religion as an aside to human evolution, something to be studied academically as a curiosity. Therefore it is hard for a scientist to realize what an impact their "study of burials" has on the spiritual feelings of a culture.

As far as the grave (tomb) robbing goes I believe that is exactly what any ancient Pharoah would have called the taking of mummys and the carting off of their possessions meant for their afterlife, to be displayed in museums and private collections all over the world. The fact that it was done in the name of science would not have made it any less of an outrage to them.

Goodyguy~

I agree with you on looting the tombs of Pharaoh's as grave robbing but when you put it side by side with the guys looting the tombs just for the money factor and burning the mummy's for warmth while looting, I would side with an archie in that respect. IF those tombs could be kept in perfect shape and guarded then I'm all for that although I do think that an archie could go INTO a tomb to study without disturbing.

The guys (looters) you're refering to Drache were some of the first 'archies'. Archaeology was an infant science at the time.

Likely Guy, the guy's I'm talking about are the ones who go into a tomb only to steal the objects and melt them down for their base gold and sell whatever they can't melt, and destroy whatever they can't take. Didn't mean the guys in the 1920's and 30's.

 

[ryaan21]

I look at my own experiences with so called professionals and come away with a bad taste in my mouth.

I located a site in my town that is full of 3000-5000 year old copper artifacts. I have been finding them and selling them for 2 summers. I approached an archie one time in question to what an item was and was treated very rudely. I was told that I OWE it to them to show them the site and return any items I found. I politey asked him why he thought I should do that and he went off the handle. Telling me people like me ruin stuff for the scientist. I thought to myself......."hmmmmm you jusst ruined any chance of EVER finding out where im ghettting thousands of dollars in copper artifacts...."


They arent owed anything. I will never cooperate with one.....nice or not thanks to the mouthbreather that I had dealings with.

Unfortunately in this world being educated leads some people to believe that they are owed something.

This person tried for months through email an phone calls to get me to divulge what I knew and the things I found. Went so far as to tell me I could be jailed for not telling him what i knew. Funny....I never told him and im not in jail and im still selling artifacts.

Some people have given me a tough time about selling them. I got into treasure hunting for adventure and the possibilty of making money. Im not going to NOT sell stuff just to appease the minds of some busybodies with their nose in my buisness.

Like i said after I found the first artifact there and tried educating myself before digging more I was treated like crap. So now I sell the items....buy new equipment and other toys...and the items are sold to museaums and the like.

I was ridiculed for charging a museum money for something like that but hey.....nothing in this world is free and the museum wasnt paying my bills while I was digging all these items.

I know all archies arent like this but even the good ones have lost any chances of hearing anything else about any sites we discover here. Thousands of years of history being dug by amatuers and sold to museums all without any interferance by an idiot with a degree. To tha good guys out there.....talk to the idiots you work with who behave this way. Ive made THOUSANDS of dollars off of something I had planned to share with the local museums and regional archies.

 

[ryaan21]

well, having been run out of an anthropology department for refering to archaeologists as graverobbers...had a 4.0 till that semester...oh well...i have the classes...and have taken archaeologists on field trips to desert ruins...

when someone here posts 4 or 5 buttons, a pocket knife, belt plate, breast plate, pocket spill change, heel plates and a pile of unfired minnie's...all found within feet of each other...

that is a grave.

i know this is unpopular view of the world...

I believe it would not be considered a grave unless human remains were discovered.
At least that is the way it has been on all the digs I have been involved with, in the real world.

This is graverobbing. Plain and simple. People do it in the name of history......but you dont see them digging at a cemetery in the name of history. There is a market for the things they dig.....and sure maybe they keep them for themselves and the true love of history...but you cant tell me no one sells that stuff. Ive seen websites online selling dug items from civil war graves.

Men didnt get the chance to be buried back then sometimes. But people nowadays think nothing of raping a grave for some bullets and a stupid belt buckle.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

another excellent example.
guy calls you out for violating federal and state laws regarding artifacts, and you cop an attitude.
ethics anyone?

http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/Books/bid1649.htm

 

[Goodyguy]

Does it matter to you if 1000 years from now somebody digs your grave to examine and study your remains?
Probably not for most, especially if you are Christian.

However what if it is known that a certain culture believes that disturbance of their dead from other than natural sources will cause the spirit to be restless and to not be at peace. Should not their beliefs be respected?

According to the Native American graves protection act of 1990 Archaeological excavation of Native American burial sites is now prohibited. Now that Federal legislators recognize that their remains are human and not archaeological resources. To me it is a shame that it took Federal legislation to stop science from desecrating Native American burials, and that it took until 1990 to stop the practice.

Nowadays when the group I belong to discovers Native American remains at a site all excavation stops and precautions are taken to eliminate any further disturbance of the burial area. Then specific guidelines are followed to insure proper Native American ceremonies are performed. If it wasn't for that I would have no part in their quest for studying the ancient cultures.

 

[Philvis]

I do not really believe you can classify the field of archaeology as looting. There is a standard scientific method used in excavations, burials, etc.

I personally have conducted and supervised numerous excavations on Native American burials when I was an archaeologist. We followed all state/federal laws and respected the burial. From our excavations, we helped to determine religious aspects of the deceased by their grave goods, trade patterns from items enclosed in the burials, size of the individuals, even diet by examining their teeth and bones. I no way do I consider that desecrating the burial. Invaluable data was obtained that we would not have gotten otherwise. Had we never excavated the graves, the odds of it surviving intact were low as the areas were notorious for pot hunters who would go out at dark and just dig away, blasting through burials without regard. Being able to document the burials is something I always am proud about.

These are the statements that I have a problem with. Who gets to set those standards that you follow as an Archeologist ? Since it obviously isn't the Native American Population who are on a new path to stop all archeological digs of their Native ancestors graves. Just because a bunch of academics don't see this as looting or desecration of the grave doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. I would tear up the person I found digging into any of my ancestors graves no matter what their feeble reasons. And don't hand me the line that it was for the betterment of mankind because of the value of what is learned. Learning should always take a backseat to peoples personal religious beliefs. It just steams me to think there's a bunch of academics looking down their noses at us Treasure Hunters when they are the ones tearing open graves, and then saying what they do doesn't count because they say so.

MD Dog,
By no means am I saying because one is an archaeologist they have the right to look down at a treasure hunter. I am a very open minded person and enjoy archaeology professionally as well as treasure hunting as a hobby. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding burials. I have no problem if you feel they shouldn't be excavated. Archaeologists can only go as far as the law allows.

As for Native American burials, the ones I have excavated are 1000+ years old. They truly are prehistoric and because of our lack of knowledge they do provide knowledge about the people here 1000 years ago. It not only helps in the general publics understanding of prehistoric peoples, but it also helps Native Americans better understand their ancestors. That, however, is the tricky part. Short of a DNA test, how is one to know that a modern day Siponi Indian, for example, is related in any way, shape or form to a prehistoric indian from the same area 1000 years ago? That would be like someone in London, England saying an excavated burial in the city is their 1000 year old ancestor. The Native American Grave Protection Act of 1990, gavee Native Americans much needed rights to reclaiming museums' collections of Native human remains and grave goods, however, in the same token set a bad precedent. Now the closest current tribe to a Native burial can claim iminent domain over it, regardless of age or whether or not it is actually a true ancestor. It really has turned into a political issue. Peruse online and I am sure you will find plenty of interesting articles. Look up the Kennewick Man dispute that has been going on for years. That is a very interesting one.

Again, everyone has their right to believe if it is proper or not to excavate a burial. Nowadays, if a dig is on land not involved in development, the burial will be excavated, but rarely are the remains disturbed. Just measurements and photos taken, and that is about it. It's the data that is important, not excavating a "trophy". At some of the burials I have been involved with, we even contacted the local tribe so their chief could perform a religious ceremony before the burial was covered back up. Anything I have taken part of has always been as respectful as possible.

I am not going to pretend that some archaeologists don't have issues with metal detectorists, because they do. I don't think, however, that the entire field should be branded as grave robbers who look down upon anyone without a degree in the field who may dig in the dirt. That's just my opinion though. If a police officer runs a metal detectorist out of a park, does that make all cops bad?

 

[Philvis]

Annmarie,
the student you spoke with sounds like he may have not have fully understood what was going on. Digs depend on two things; someone to fund it and permission from the land owners. The park where they were excavated may have had some kind of agreement where they can come out and dig for a few seasons before they had to request formal permission again. It may have been a lapse in the request. There are no laws stating you can only dig for 3 years and then you have to quit for a few years.

My old college conducts a dig ever May/June off Rt. 360 about 20 miles east of South Boston in Charlotte County. I usually go down on one of the last weekends. Visitors are always welcome at the site. You should try to make it down. The site is a prehistoric native american camp next to the Staunton River at Staunton River Battlefield state park. http://www.stauntonriverbattlefield.org/arch.html The students are really knowledgeable and are happy to explain what is going on.

 

[LadyDigger]

Annmarie,
the student you spoke with sounds like he may have not have fully understood what was going on. Digs depend on two things; someone to fund it and permission from the land owners. The park where they were excavated may have had some kind of agreement where they can come out and dig for a few seasons before they had to request formal permission again. It may have been a lapse in the request. There are no laws stating you can only dig for 3 years and then you have to quit for a few years.

My old college conducts a dig ever May/June off Rt. 360 about 20 miles east of South Boston in Charlotte County. I usually go down on one of the last weekends. Visitors are always welcome at the site. You should try to make it down. The site is a prehistoric native american camp next to the Staunton River at Staunton River Battlefield state park. http://www.stauntonriverbattlefield.org/arch.html The students are really knowledgeable and are happy to explain what is going on.

Thank you for your response. I think that funding is the issue with the Boy Scout camp in not doing more on the dig site. As I said, the 'archie' is with William and Mary College and I can't not remember her name, only that of her assist, with whom is very one sided. There is also an old barn built circa 1859 that is going through a restoration period. We will get to see the progress on our next camping adventure here in a couple of weeks...so excited to see what they have done!!!

But let me ask you something....what would the harm be, to go into the dig area, metal detect and place orange flags (like they use to mark pipes underground and such), to give them ideas where to look or concentrate on? No harm whatsoever, esp since no digging has been done in several years. We would NOT dig...just pin point locations. I will be approaching BSA Council on this....and they can witness it so we don't get blamed for anything! CYA!!! LOL

Now, the stuff they found there are in the BSA Museum and there are some nice things...mostly of pottery, plates and such. The 'archie' found half of a platter and only a few feet away, found the other half. That was an amazing find!!! And it's a beautiful platter!!! Nice artwork.

And let it be known, as I have given my word...that if we found any foundations (which we are trying to locate where two homes once stood) or if we are to find any 'human remains' (there is a grave site area in the dig area), we will inform the Ranger and BSA Council. BSA has tried since purchasing the land to find where these two homes were, even with the old maps they have had no luck...but we just may stumble upon it by accident....and I can't wait for that day to happen!!! I also keep a map of the camp area and mark where all items have been found, take photos for our records, document anything and everything I can. I personnally do NOT want to see the 'archies' involved in the current dig to take credit for what my buddies and I have located. We too, have been putting alot of hard work in research, trying to pinpoint locations, detecting, etc...that is why we are writing a book....

For Jamestown, they are members of APVA, with Dr. Kelso being the Chief archeologist of the APVA Jamestown Rediscovery. So, I am sure funding is much greater for them, plus Dr. Kelso has written several books (which my hubby bought and had signed by him....he's proud of it .

That site you speak of, sounds exciting. May have to make a family trip out there.....we are all interested in the fascination of history, be it metal detecting or an archeaological dig!

Happy Hunting,
Annmarie

PS: I will go into a cemetery to take photos of headstones or to ghost hunt, but never will I dig up someones grave to take off jewelry, and other items for my own greed. To me, that is wrong! And that is why I will be cremated and ashes put upon the seas!!!

 

[One mans trash...]

Short of a DNA test, how is one to know that a modern day Siponi Indian, for example, is related in any way, shape or form to a prehistoric indian from the same area 1000 years ago? That would be like someone in London, England saying an excavated burial in the city is their 1000 year old ancestor.

I have a relative whose grave is subject to archeological disruption. Do I have a case? I mean, didn't he have enough done to him? Surgery without his consent. Kicked out of his garden home. Lost a son to murder.

And that Leakey fellow. My folks weren't much to look at back then, but they're blood.

 

[scubadude18]

It's all about the money to a museum. The more artifacts they get, the more money in there pocket. that's why they don't want us MD's around.

 

[Frankn]

I don't believe you dug up a 2009 thread so you could comment! Frank

 

[Rawhide]

I have the utmost respect for our learned ones and have bent the ear of a few myself. Without turning this into a political statement, there needs to be no rules governing metal detectors, as it is out birth right to be able to enjoy the land. No major finds are being made or new discovery's. Our learned friends do exactly the same as me, they dig, sell or display their finds. I am a grown and responsible adult and dont need diapers to go out in public.

 

[sutphin]

Man this is a very touchy subject with very fine details. Archaeology is one thing but a man of archaeology intentions who says people with metal detector should not remove items from ground well what I am getting at I have hunted a piece of property for 3 years and this archeologist shows up and is doing a report on all the ole homesites ask owner if he could do a survey she tell the guy that I am detecting and he blows a gasket.He says that she should not let me do this for I am removing history and he never takes anything from sites he surveys.LIAR!!!!!!!!!!YOU PULL UP HIS WEB SITE AND AT HIS HOME HE HAS RELICS HE HAS REMOVED FROM CERTAIN SITES AND THEY ARE INBEDED IN HIS BRICK WALL.Talking about a hypocrite all he was trying do to is move in on this property that dates back to 1799 2 mill sites, civil war history,indian history even rev. war.WHY should he be able to remove items with significant history and for me not.