Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy, Gilded Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

[Erik in NJ]

Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy, Gilded Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi folks - My first post on this forum. I could not get any satisfaction on the Today's Finds forum. Here's what I found yesterday:

I'm still not sure what these are and what timeframe they are from.

This summer up in MA I unearthed two of these about 5 feet from each other. Today on an older property that's being demolished, my first signal was the round rosette about 6" deep. Ornate design, appears to be pewter as it's crumbling and also appears to have been gilted.

On other side of house where more demolition has been, I found on top of the ground what I thought was a spur, but it seems to be another rosette in the shape of a 16 pointed star! Tiny inlays that resembled pearls, but are probably something else. This one was gilted too. Appears younger as there are two casting tabs. There seem to be three words cast into it -- last is a number 2802.

All of them so far have been approx. 2" x 2".

Any info on these would be greatly appreciated as I am trying to get an approximate timeframe. Are they pewter? How were they attached to the bridle? How should I clean them? I don't want to destroy them. Thanks!

 

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[stefen]

Re: Pewter Gilted Bridle Rosettes or What?

Unfortunately, your Post Title may be premature as to a use and may affecta true ID...

In my opinion, they appear to be too large to be bridle rosettes....a bridle is usually composed of leather strips that measure anywhere from 1/2 inch to 1 inch in width and the rosettes would most likely be at the interconnections...possibly at the brow band...

More than likely, they were used for jewelry or furniture decorations...especially if inlaid with beads or simulated pearls...

As to cleaning, possibly a water soak only and pat dry...Brushing may destroy the gilding...

I'd definitely stay away from chemicals and electrolysis which may (most likely will) destroy them...

Interesting find that may have a suprising ID...

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Pewter Gilted Bridle Rosettes or What?

Here are the two others I found -- the pics may be too big....I'll resize when I have a chance.

 

[stefen]

Re: Pewter Gilted Bridle Rosettes or What?

Since the formula for pewter is a composition that contains tin, copper and lead (and possibly other metals) which may vary from country to country and century to century...

There is an off chance that this is not pewter but pot metal, both of which will degrade...

Not sure how each will read on an MD unit...different or the same?

Maybe weight/volumn measurement will tell...pot metal is lighter than pewter...

Destructive testing, is of course, out of the question...

The metal is not as important as the use of the items...

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Pewter Gilted Bridle Rosettes or What?

Unfortunately, your Post Title may be premature as to a use and may affecta true ID...

In my opinion, they appear to be too large to be bridle rosettes....a bridle is usually composed of leather strips that measure anywhere from 1/2 inch to 1 inch in width and the rosettes would most likely be at the interconnections...possibly at the brow band...

More than likely, they were used for jewelry or furniture decorations...especially if inlaid with beads or simulated pearls...

As to cleaning, possibly a water soak only and pat dry...Brushing may destroy the gilding...

I'd definitely stay away from chemicals and electrolysis which may (most likely will) destroy them...

Interesting find that may have a suprising ID...

Thanks Stefen - what about hydrogen peroxide, either boiling or cold? Good or bad idea? I have only used soap and water so far.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Pewter Gilted Bridle Rosettes or What?

Hi - They are pretty heavy for their size. Came up on my Explorer SE near a corroded zinc penny, maybe a bit lower, but definitely towards the upper portion of the screen (higher conductivity reading). I'll see if I can find my scale later and weigh them. That's a great idea. Thanks

Since formula for pewter is a composition containing that contains tin, copper and lead (and possibly other metals) which may vary from country to country and century to century...

There is an off chance that this is not pewter but pot metal, both of which will degrade...

Not sure how each will read on an MD unit...different or the same?

Maybe weight/volumn measurement will tell...pot metal is lighter than pewter...

Destructive testing, is of course, out of the question...

The metal is not as important as the use of the items...

 

[shaun7]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

I don't think it's too large for a bridal rosette

I have a few, but this is the largest!

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

When I dug my first one I thought it was an old brooch of some sort, but they are quite heavy, I can't imagine someone wearing this on a dress. Maybe a coat.

Looks like pot metal. Could they be costume jewelry? It looks like the gilted metal items that my grandmother had. Im not sure of the metal composition but its kinda heavy and would corrode outside.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi Shaun,

That's a beauty and just about the size of mine! Is it definitely a bridal rosette? What is the base metal? I have seen later rosettes here made of copper and things, but can't find much on pewter/lead gilted ones. Thanks for your post!

By the way, the book it's resting on looks interesting, I can read the phrase:

"Third coinage testoon struck at the Tower..."

Just out of curiosity, what's it about? Thanks again!

I don't think it's too large for a bridal rosette

I have a few, but this is the largest!

 

[shaun7]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi Shaun,

That's a beauty and just about the size of mine! Is it definitely a bridal rosette? What is the base metal? I have seen later rosettes here made of copper and things, but can't find much on pewter/lead gilted ones. Thanks for your post!

By the way, the book it's resting on looks interesting, I can read the phrase:

"Third coinage testoon struck at the Tower..."

Just out of curiosity, what's it about? Thanks again!

I don't think it's too large for a bridal rosette

I have a few, but this is the largest!

Yes, definitely a bridal rosette!

It's the Spink book "Coins Of England" the phrase is referring to the coin on the front cover. A Henry V111 silver hammered coin

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thank you Shaun. Will have to get a copy of that book. My wife is British (originally from Bath-Bristol area) and I occaisionally get to detect over there no Roman or Hammered for me yet , but I did find a James II 1698 1-Crown coin first time I went out - I think it was termed "Gun Money" as they made it from melted cannons when James was off the English throne wanting to recapture it -- used to pay his troops is my understanding. One edge is unfortunately broken off it -- is it rare at all? For me at the time it was by FAR the oldest coin I'd ever found! Thanks again for your posts!

Hope to get some sort of timeframe on these items if mine are in fact bridle rosettes.

 

[timekiller]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

The star one is the only one that has a doubt in my mind but they did make them star shaped like it for sure.But use these two sites I use often and I think you will see.Notice when you look the size and the metal content as 2" or lead is not out of the question at all.
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=169&page=1
http://www.jefpat.org/diagnostic/Small Finds/Bridle_Bosses/Webpages/BridleBossesByStyle.htm
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[shaun7]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thank you Shaun. Will have to get a copy of that book. My wife is British (originally from Bath-Bristol area) and I occaisionally get to detect over there no Roman or Hammered for me yet , but I did find a James II 1698 1-Crown coin first time I went out - I think it was termed "Gun Money" as they made it from melted cannons when James was off the English throne wanting to recapture it -- used to pay his troops is my understanding. One edge is unfortunately broken off it -- is it rare at all? For me at the time it was by FAR the oldest coin I'd ever found! Thanks again for your posts!

Hope to get some sort of timeframe on these items if mine are in fact bridle rosettes.

You're welcome! Sounds like it might be a rare coin, but it's not in the book

I think Timekillers links will give you an idea of age

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi Pete!

Thanks very much for the links! The first link has almost identical items in size and composition and they call them "Harness Mounts" at least in England .... in the .jpg name I see the word brooch and I wonder if this guy thought it may have been a brooch at first like I did.

I'll post his pics here as they are quite similar. Now I need to try and find a US timeframe which may not coincide with the English dates - if so they would probably be 18'th century I suppose.

The star one is the only one that has a doubt in my mind but they did make them star shaped like it for sure.But use these two sites I use often and I think you will see.Notice when you look the size and the metal content as 2" or lead is not out of the question at all.
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=169&page=1
http://www.jefpat.org/diagnostic/Small Finds/Bridle_Bosses/Webpages/BridleBossesByStyle.htm
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[timekiller]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi Pete!

Thanks very much for the links! The first link has almost identical items in size and composition and they call them "Harness Mounts" at least in England .... in the .jpg name I see the word brooch and I wonder if this guy thought it may have been a brooch at first like I did.

I'll post his pics here as they are quite similar. Now I need to try and find a US timeframe which may not coincide with the English dates - if so they would probably be 18'th century I suppose.

The star one is the only one that has a doubt in my mind but they did make them star shaped like it for sure.But use these two sites I use often and I think you will see.Notice when you look the size and the metal content as 2" or lead is not out of the question at all.
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=169&page=1
http://www.jefpat.org/diagnostic/Small Finds/Bridle_Bosses/Webpages/BridleBossesByStyle.htm
Take Care,
Pete,

Your sure welcome. But 18th century for New Jersey would not be a problem I don't think.Alot of old finds from that time frame there as it has alot of history of it's own.
Take Care,
Pete

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi again Shaun....it may not be considered English coinage as I believe he had them minted while he was raising an army in France from what I recall to retake the throne in England. Wish I could put my hands on it right now, but it's buried away with a lot of stuff after our last move. I'll definitely find it though. Sounds like something that might be in an appendix of a book like that. I can't believe that it would be considered French though.

You're welcome! Sounds like it might be a rare coin, but it's not in the book

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi again Shaun....it may not be considered English coinage as I believe he had them minted while he was raising an army in France from what I recall to retake the throne in England. Wish I could put my hands on it right now, but it's buried away with a lot of stuff after our last move. I'll definitely find it though. Sounds like something that might be in an appendix of a book like that. I can't believe that it would be considered French though.

You're welcome! Sounds like it might be a rare coin, but it's not in the book

Irish.

Like this?

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...Lot=1557&Val=86e452cac49878810a14b0c09e623877

 

[shaun7]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi again Shaun....it may not be considered English coinage as I believe he had them minted while he was raising an army in France from what I recall to retake the throne in England. Wish I could put my hands on it right now, but it's buried away with a lot of stuff after our last move. I'll definitely find it though. Sounds like something that might be in an appendix of a book like that. I can't believe that it would be considered French though.

You're welcome! Sounds like it might be a rare coin, but it's not in the book

Irish.

I knew you would know

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi again Shaun....it may not be considered English coinage as I believe he had them minted while he was raising an army in France from what I recall to retake the throne in England. Wish I could put my hands on it right now, but it's buried away with a lot of stuff after our last move. I'll definitely find it though. Sounds like something that might be in an appendix of a book like that. I can't believe that it would be considered French though.

You're welcome! Sounds like it might be a rare coin, but it's not in the book

Irish.

I knew you would know

Is familiar to me because I had a nice Limerick Halfpenny at one time.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi IP!

No mine was quite different as it had a bust of James II on the obverse - don't recall the reverse right now. Was it in fact Ireland he went to to raise an army and re-take the throne? I thought it was France, but I know it was all Catholic vs. Protestant stuff, so Ireland makes sense. It was referred to as a Jacobean find when I found it. I'm pretty sure it was 1698 -- wish I could put my hands on it right now

Irish.

Like this?

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...Lot=1557&Val=86e452cac49878810a14b0c09e623877