Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy, Gilded Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

[Erik in NJ]

Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy, Gilded Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi folks - My first post on this forum. I could not get any satisfaction on the Today's Finds forum. Here's what I found yesterday:

I'm still not sure what these are and what timeframe they are from.

This summer up in MA I unearthed two of these about 5 feet from each other. Today on an older property that's being demolished, my first signal was the round rosette about 6" deep. Ornate design, appears to be pewter as it's crumbling and also appears to have been gilted.

On other side of house where more demolition has been, I found on top of the ground what I thought was a spur, but it seems to be another rosette in the shape of a 16 pointed star! Tiny inlays that resembled pearls, but are probably something else. This one was gilted too. Appears younger as there are two casting tabs. There seem to be three words cast into it -- last is a number 2802.

All of them so far have been approx. 2" x 2".

Any info on these would be greatly appreciated as I am trying to get an approximate timeframe. Are they pewter? How were they attached to the bridle? How should I clean them? I don't want to destroy them. Thanks!

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi IP!

No mine was quite different as it had a bust of James II on the obverse - don't recall the reverse right now. Was it in fact Ireland he went to to raise an army and re-take the throne? I thought it was France, but I know it was all Catholic vs. Protestant stuff, so Ireland makes sense. It was referred to as a Jacobean find when I found it. I'm pretty sure it was 1698 -- wish I could put my hands on it right now

Irish.

Like this?

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...Lot=1557&Val=86e452cac49878810a14b0c09e623877

There's something missing. It sounds like a British Crown, but 1698 would be too late for James II. 1688 maybe.

 

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[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Erik,I guess it could be a bridle rossette as pictured just under the horses ear in this photo?As said mine was found in an early Spanish settlement.They are just so big and heavy,it threw me!

 

[shaun7]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Hi IP!

No mine was quite different as it had a bust of James II on the obverse - don't recall the reverse right now. Was it in fact Ireland he went to to raise an army and re-take the throne? I thought it was France, but I know it was all Catholic vs. Protestant stuff, so Ireland makes sense. It was referred to as a Jacobean find when I found it. I'm pretty sure it was 1698 -- wish I could put my hands on it right now

Irish.

Like this?

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...Lot=1557&Val=86e452cac49878810a14b0c09e623877

There's something missing. It sounds like a British Crown, but 1698 would be too late for James II. 1688 maybe.

Yes, too late! He was in France then, but it was all over for him



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_II_of_England

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

There's something missing. It sounds like a British Crown, but 1698 would be too late for James II. 1688 maybe.

Yes, maybe 1689 (I remember the last 2 digits were not doubled, but I seem to recall I only made the 1600's by 2 years )?? Did he try to raise an Army in France too and use Gunmoney? I'm gonna have to dig that coin out this weekend as I had that and several other interesting finds from detecting there in England a couple times....including a small Dutch coin (likely dropped by a Dutch mercenary in the area), a hard times token, few other cool relics I have not ID'ed yet. You guys here are much better at this stuff than the guys on the other forum I used to frequent.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thanks for the photo Kuger -- a pic really does speak 1000 words! So what is the difference between a harness and a bridle. The UK site calls it a harness mount (harness boss in parens). I know little to nothing about horse tack.

Erik,I guess it could be a bridle rossette as pictured just under the horses ear in this photo?As said mine was found in an early Spanish settlement.They are just so big and heavy,it threw me!

 

[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thanks for the photo Kuger -- a pic really does speak 1000 words! So what is the difference between a harness and a bridle. The UK site calls it a harness mount (harness boss in parens). I know little to nothing about horse tack.

Erik,I guess it could be a bridle rossette as pictured just under the horses ear in this photo?As said mine was found in an early Spanish settlement.They are just so big and heavy,it threw me!

Bridle,is what holds the bit in the horses mouth which is your steering wheel and brakes while riding.A harness is all of the regalia used for pulling,cart,plow etc

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thanks K. This UK site refers to it as a "harness mount":

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=169&page=1

with "harness boss" in parentheses. I can see decorating the bridle where you indicated with a gilded ornament, but not sure where a harness actually connects to the horse or why someone would want to decorate it. Seems like making these items out of lead alloys would make them quite soft and prone to breakage, but maybe that's why we're finding them though it doesn't seem like may here in the US find them as the two posted here today from the US are the first two I've seen like mine in here. First 10 years of detecting, none, now 4 in a few months....go figure! I'm not complaning, I think they are a pretty nice find.

Bridle,is what holds the bit in the horses mouth which is your steering wheel and brakes while riding.A harness is all of the regalia used for pulling,cart,plow etc

 

[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thanks K. This UK site refers to it as a "harness mount":

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=169&page=1

with "harness boss" in parentheses. I can see decorating the bridle where you indicated with a gilded ornament, but not sure where a harness actually connects to the horse or why someone would want to decorate it. Seems like making these items out of lead alloys would make them quite soft and prone to breakage, but maybe that's why we're finding them though it doesn't seem like may here in the US find them as the two posted here today from the US are the first two I've seen like mine in here. First 10 years of detecting, none, now 4 in a few months....go figure! I'm not complaning, I think they are a pretty nice find.

Bridle,is what holds the bit in the horses mouth which is your steering wheel and brakes while riding.A harness is all of the regalia used for pulling,cart,plow etc

Good points Erik,harness for pulling a carriage was often decorated,so they very well could be for that.Mine is lead filled which makes it very heavy,thats what threw me,but they very well could have been used on bridles too I reckon.Usually the Vaquro or Californio concho's or Rossettes were made from Silver....maybe these were the poor mans version?

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Was a Vaquro an cowboy? I can't imagine a person wanting to weighed down by these things. I'm not sure what or who wears a concho -- man or beast. It's my understanding (though I could be wrong) that horse tack like saddles were heavier here in the US than in the UK, so maybe these were bridle decorations. Re lead alloy vs. silver, well the farmers here in the East were in lean times in those days, so perhaps your "poor man's version" is right on the mark. After all they did gilt (or is it gild) them to make them look like gold, and when knew must have ben quite eye catching, but I'm still surprised they used a lead alloy as the base metal. I'm sure someone will chime in as to why they used lead as opposed to copper, brass, bronze, etc. for these items.

Good points Erik,harness for pulling a carriage was often decorated,so they very well could be for that.Mine is lead filled which makes it very heavy,thats what threw me,but they very well could have been used on bridles too I reckon.Usually the Vaquro or Californio concho's or Rossettes were made from Silver....maybe these were the poor mans version?

 

[stefen]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Erik,I guess it could be a bridle rossette as pictured just under the horses ear in this photo?As said mine was found in an early Spanish settlement.They are just so big and heavy,it threw me!

Lets answer one question at a time...

Is a vaquero a cowboy? In later years, in the west and southwest, they would be one and the same depending on wether you wsere a mexican rancher or an american...

Conchos were a decoration more attuned to the caballeros or vaqueros...they liked a lot of splash and usually polished silver...

Cowboys, on the other hand were poorly paid and usually didn't have fancy saddles or other tack...don't confuse Hollywood cowboys with the hard working ranch hands...

I'm not 100% sold on these being rosettes at this point...because of the metals used and the fact that they were decorated and gilted...but I have been know to have been wrong...at least once

If however, they are rossettes, as noted in my original comment, "the rosettes would most likely be at the interconnections...possibly at the brow band"...(See Krugers picture)

 

[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Was a Vaquro an cowboy? I can't imagine a person wanting to weighed down by these things. I'm not sure what or who wears a concho -- man or beast. It's my understanding (though I could be wrong) that horse tack like saddles were heavier here in the US than in the UK, so maybe these were bridle decorations. Re lead alloy vs. silver, well the farmers here in the East were in lean times in those days, so perhaps your "poor man's version" is right on the mark. After all they did gilt (or is it gild) them to make them look like gold, and when knew must have ben quite eye catching, but I'm still surprised they used a lead alloy as the base metal. I'm sure someone will chime in as to why they used lead as opposed to copper, brass, bronze, etc. for these items.

Good points Erik,harness for pulling a carriage was often decorated,so they very well could be for that.Mine is lead filled which makes it very heavy,thats what threw me,but they very well could have been used on bridles too I reckon.Usually the Vaquro or Californio concho's or Rossettes were made from Silver....maybe these were the poor mans version?

Yes a "Vaquero",is Mexican or Spanish for Cowboy,and they wore some gaudy flashy costumes,and very heavy,I used to have a Spanish saddle that was unbeleivable how heavy it was....really unreal!I dont think they were too concerned about the steed!I am stuck on the whole Spanish thing,because of what kind of decoration they sported and given the provenance of my find,but yours probably has nothing to do with it.Conchos and Rossettes are basically the same thing

 

[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Erik,I guess it could be a bridle rossette as pictured just under the horses ear in this photo?As said mine was found in an early Spanish settlement.They are just so big and heavy,it threw me!

I'm not 100% sold on these being rosettes at this point...but I have been know to have been wrong...at least once

If however, they are rossettes, as noted in my original comment, "the rosettes would most likely be at the interconnections...possibly at the brow band"...(See Krugers picture)

I am with ya Stephen,I dug mine several years ago and it just didnt strike me as such,but I cant for the life of me think what it went on.I am %90 positive it didnt go on any furniture as where I found mine,there def. was none

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Thanks Stefen and Kuger for clarification on all the various terms that I'm unfamiliar with. There was definitely a lot of farming in my area in the 1700 - 1800's. Probably little to no cowboys here or at the MA site. As for farming at the MA site, I'm not sure what the history of the property was though I found some other interesting items such as dandy buttons, 1/2 Reale, 1837 hard times token, tip to a sword scabbard that I should post here for ID amongst other interesting items. When I pulled the first one out of the ground in MA, I immediately thought woman's brooch because of the gilding. I assumed they were pewter. I will try and weigh them all this evening. Thanks again for all of your great input so far!

 

[creskol]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Just for the record here, team / express/coach rosettes were 2 1/4 inches in diameter

 

[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Just for the record here, team / express/coach rosettes were 2 1/4 inches in diameter

Were all created equal?

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

In order of appearance in this thread:

6 pointed round (from NJ) - 1-7/8"
16 pointed star (from NJ) - 2-1/8"
8 pointed guilded (from MA) - 2"
Sunflower gilded (from MA) - 1-3/4"

There is some degradation to the points on some, but I'd imagine only 1/8" or less lost on 8 pointed item. The rest look relatively intact.

 

[stefen]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

I used to have a Spanish saddle that was unbeleivable how heavy it was....really unreal!I dont think they were too concerned about the steed! I am stuck on the whole Spanish thing, because of what kind of decoration they sported and given the provenance of my find, but yours probably has nothing to do with it. Conchos and Rossettes are basically the same thing

My everyday saddle is a custom carved western-cut over a Mexican-South-of-the-border (Spanish) tree by Irvan Wallace (1975), which is by far, the most comfortable saddle I've ever used...couple that with my Peruvian Paso and you'll get rocked to sleep...weight same as a standard roping tree except the horn is big enough to make tortillas while you ride...35 years of use and my same butt still fits the padded seat...

Still think the rosettes are not for riding stock tack...however, carriage or team wagon harness may have used this large size for blinders or brow straps.


And I agree, most fittings were either steel, brass or silver...not some cheap imitation....

 

[creskol]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Just for the record here, team / express/coach rosettes were 2 1/4 inches in diameter

Were all created equal?

Yes, but some were created more equal than others.

 

[kuger]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

I used to have a Spanish saddle that was unbeleivable how heavy it was....really unreal!I dont think they were too concerned about the steed! I am stuck on the whole Spanish thing, because of what kind of decoration they sported and given the provenance of my find, but yours probably has nothing to do with it. Conchos and Rossettes are basically the same thing

My everyday saddle is a custom carved western-cut over a Mexican-South-of-the-border (Spanish) tree by Irvan Wallace (1975), which is by far, the most comfortable saddle I've ever used...couple that with my Peruvian Paso and you'll get rocked to sleep...weight same as a standard roping tree except the horn is big enough to make tortillas while you ride...35 years of use and my same butt still fits the padded seat...

Still think the rosettes are not for riding stock tack...however, carriage or team wagon harness may have used this large size for blinders or brow straps.


And I agree, most fittings were either steel, brass or silver...not some cheap imitation....

Mine was from the Early 1800's,I bet the tree weighed 25 + lbs(I am being conservative)then the half inch thick leather skirt and all of the Silver(silver adornment abound!)and yes it had the huge horn,....like a steering wheel!!I never did put it on a horse but it was comfortable,on saw horse.
My present saddle (That I normally use)is over 40 years old and I swear it has form fitted to my skinny bum!!I have made several saddles that I couldnt get the same fit from.I had my Bronc saddle custom made and it was like sitting in an easy chair,but I would mighty funny ring across the prairie on it!!!

 

[Erik in NJ]

Re: Approx. 2" x 2" Heavy Gilted Items -- Ever Seen These Before?

Yes, but some were created more equal than others.

Good quote from Animal Farm, but are you saying that they could or could not vary from the 2-1/4" standard you mentioned? Where is this figure from? What about tack for a riding horse for the average Joe? My "rosettes" vary in size from 1-3/4" to 2-1/8". Both sites are along old roads that were probably major travelling roads in their day.

Thanks for any info!